Free Thinking Christianity Views

[Vanguard]

I am not sure exactly where this post needs to go, but it seems that it would fit here...

I grew up as a Southern Baptist, but now am pretty much a non-denominational Christian. It is important to understand that I am a free thinker, I look at multiple angles and views, I think outside of the box, and I tend to look at the bigger picture. Part of my job as a CSI is to help with psychological profiling. I use that when studying history to get a better understanding of what was going on at the time, and why. All is rarely what it seems.

In this post I'd like to talk about a few points of interest that I have struggled with over the years. I understand some of these may strike a nerve with some people. My intend is not diabolic in nature by any means. These are issues that I have come across, researched until I was blue in the face, and finally came to my own conclusions.

1. I prefer the NASB translation of the Bible, even though I grew up on the KJV and love it as one of the greatest literary works of all time. What I have found...rather what scholars have found and published and I read about, was that the KJV had some obscure translations in it. Given that the age in which it was penned (circa 1611 CE) had far fewer textual resources than we do now, errors were bound to happen. Even though the KJV is a literal translation (which are more accurate than dynamic or paraphrased versions) the NASB is more true in the "word for word" translation from the Hebrew, Greek and even Aramaic. Keep in mind that the Rosetta Stone, Dead Sea Scrolls, etc. were not found until long after the KJV was penned. YMMV.

2. I used to read the Bible and take the most popular stories literally. It wasn't until I got older and started thinking for myself (which means questioning things...oh the taboo!) that I realized not everything is black and white. What Genesis says about the serpent in the garden in one translation may be something completely different in another. So many religions/denominations assume a certain position on a particular translation. Assumptions are bad when you are going for historical/biblical accuracy. Now I read the Bible with an open mind, I review what other religions/translations say about a verse, and I try to rationalize what was really going on, or what is really meant (metaphorical vs. literal). This gives me greater understanding and appreciation of God's word.

3. As a philosopher (I say that loosely) I have to believe that we have free will, given to us by God as one of the greatest gifts. It can also be a curse. If God interferes with a free will choice that a human being makes, it is no longer free will. Having said that, I have come to the conclusion that bad things happen to good people not because God allows them to, but because someone made a free will choice to do something bad and God can't/won't do anything about it, lest He is in violation of the doctrine of free will. The next time someone asks "why do bad things happen to good people," don't answer with a vague cop-out such as "it's God's will, He works in mysterious ways, etc." Tell them that someone made a free will choice and God won't interfere with it.

I have several more floating around in my thoughts, but I'll stop there. Comments? Opinions?

 

[iLOVE]

Blessings,

Please understand that God is in control. When you begin to read the Word of God that is the compass of life you will understand.
Examples to get you started:
1. Satan could not kill "Job" kids without Gods permission. Job 1:6-12 (also note how Satan had to answer God when God spoke to him)
2. The greatest example of all from Jesus why God is in control.
John 19:8-11
8 When Pilate heard this, he was even more afraid, 9 and he went back inside the palace. “Where do you come from?” he asked Jesus, but Jesus gave him no answer. 10 “Do you refuse to speak to me?” Pilate said. “Don’t you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?”
11 Jesus answered, “You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.”

Jesus makes it very clear who is in control!

Things happen because it is Gods plan and that it is to wonderful for us to understand. Job 42:3

 

[Vanguard]

Contextual. Satan is not a human being with free will. Furthermore, it would be impolite to not answer someone when they ask you a question. God did not command Satan to answer. A question was asked, Satan replied, and Job's test began. The question then becomes, was the Job story literal or a parable? We don't know for sure. We weren't there to witness it.

In your second example, the response from Jesus could also be viewed to support free will. If you will, superimpose the phrase "free will" in John 19:11, replacing the word "it." That verse would then read. "You would have no power over me if [free will] were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin."

It's all in the interpretation and context.

 

[iLOVE]

Contextual. Satan is not a human being with free will. Furthermore, it would be impolite to not answer someone when they ask you a question. God did not command Satan to answer. A question was asked, Satan replied, and Job's test began. The question then becomes, was the Job story literal or a parable? We don't know for sure. We weren't there to witness it.

In your second example, the response from Jesus could also be viewed to support free will. If you will, superimpose the phrase "free will" in John 19:11, replacing the word "it." That verse would then read. "You would have no power over me if [free will] were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin."

It's all in the interpretation and context.

Please get a Expositor's Study Bible to understand scriptures. Trust God since you can not trace God.

 

[Vanguard]

Please get a Expositor's Study Bible to understand scriptures. Trust God since you can not trace God.

No need. I am working toward my PhD in theology, but thanks anyway. Besides I am not a fan of a man [Jimmy Swaggart] who preaches the word of God on stage but refuses to live by it. Not exactly the source text I want.

 

[iLOVE]

No need. I am working toward my PhD in theology, but thanks anyway. Besides I am not a fan of a man [Jimmy Swaggart] who preaches the word of God on stage but refuses to live by it. Not exactly the source text I want.

There are good ideas and Godly ideas. Please let your PhD become a blessed Godly idea.

 

[Grazer]

Context is very important, both of the passage itself and the culture of the time. I'm finding Peter Enns to be very helpful in this area.

Thinking outside the box is very important

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2

 

[iLOVE]

The story of Joshua and the children of Israel; they were in the land of milk and honey while the people where still in Canaan. They were talking about the grapes, fruits, and pineapples, while the people was talking about the giants. Two people seeing the same thing and different thoughts. Let us focus on the promise and not the pain; the promotion and not the problem.

 

[Mike]

I was going to quote part of Job 38, but every word was vital to this discussion. Vanguard, I don't know how someone can read that chapter and those that follow and not conclude that he is in control of everything. Even if you see Job as a metaphor, if you believe His Word is His Word and everything that is written is useful for instruction, this should be seen as God's Nature revealed. This is a constant theme in scripture. Gnostic writings introduced the notion that God stays at a distance, detached from His creation. His promise is that He will not be. I believe this is a dangerous path that leads to despair.

We are joyful to be slaves of Christ and follow Him; not our way of free thinking, picking and choosing parts of His Word that we agree and disagree with. I'm not exactly saying this is what you're doing, but it's a slippery slope.

 

[ezra]

No need. I am working toward my PhD in theology, but thanks anyway. Besides I am not a fan of a man [Jimmy Swaggart] who preaches the word of God on stage but refuses to live by it. Not exactly the source text I want.

in what way does he live off stage? while i am not a big J.S fan i do not know how he lives off stage. PHD.=====pilled high deep on kidding.. but don,t let education be your guide....

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Free will has always been a topic on my mind.
It's good that it is being discussed here as I want to learn more.

But in John 19:11, the word "it" is in direct reference to the preceding word "power". If you change both words to "free will", it makes no sense.

 

[WIP]

Free will has always been a topic on my mind.
It's good that it is being discussed here as I want to learn more.

But in John 19:11, the word "it" is in direct reference to the preceding word "power". If you change both words to "free will", it makes no sense.

It would also seem that replacing the word "it" with "free will" is nothing more than changing the scriptures to arrive at your own preferred conclusion. If one is going to replace the word "it" with "free will" then it would behoove the same to back up this change with scripture to show how it fits. Otherwise, as already mentioned, one could be sliding down a slippery slope.

 

[Vanguard]

in what way does he live off stage? while i am not a big J.S fan i do not know how he lives off stage. PHD.=====pilled high deep on kidding.. but don,t let education be your guide....

Two different accounts of being with a prostitute, and his declaration that any type of rock music was the devil's music, as well as the "new pornography." He fell from grace over these scandals. Like I said, not the role model I want, nor do I use any book of his as a source text.

 

[Sinthesis]

3. As a philosopher (I say that loosely) I have to believe that we have free will, given to us by God as one of the greatest gifts. It can also be a curse. If God interferes with a free will choice that a human being makes, it is no longer free will. Having said that, I have come to the conclusion that bad things happen to good people not because God allows them to, but because someone made a free will choice to do something bad and God can't/won't do anything about it, lest He is in violation of the doctrine of free will. The next time someone asks "why do bad things happen to good people," don't answer with a vague cop-out such as "it's God's will, He works in mysterious ways, etc." Tell them that someone made a free will choice and God won't interfere with it.

I have several more floating around in my thoughts, but I'll stop there. Comments? Opinions?

Yes, we have been given free will. However, free will is not to be confused with ability. God allows us our free will as an expression of love, but He also may frustrate us in our attempts to act upon our will when it conflicts with His discretion. God continuously interferes with our ability to express our free will. How we respond to this interference shapes our relationship with God.

Why do bad things happen to good people?

• What is bad?
• Who is good?
• Can good come from bad things?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Two different accounts of being with a prostitute, and his declaration that any type of rock music was the devil's music, as well as the "new pornography." He fell from grace over these scandals. Like I said, not the role model I want, nor do I use any book of his as a source text.

I think it would be good if we changed our focus here and not bad-mouth anybody, but rather let's build each other up in Christ.

 

[bfiddy]

The next time someone asks "why do bad things happen to good people," don't answer with a vague cop-out such as "it's God's will, He works in mysterious ways, etc." Tell them that someone made a free will choice and God won't interfere with it.

I have several more floating around in my thoughts, but I'll stop there. Comments? Opinions?

Hi Vanguard,

If someone asks you why bad things happen to good people please contact me. I'd love to meet this good person that somebody has found!
Mark 10:18 (NAS) - And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.

The proper question is "Why does anything good happen to us evil creatures?"

God bless,
Brian

 

[ezra]

Two different accounts of being with a prostitute, and his declaration that any type of rock music was the devil's music, as well as the "new pornography." He fell from grace over these scandals. Like I said, not the role model I want, nor do I use any book of his as a source text.

6to each their own i seldom listen to him but he has other ministers i do listen to at times. what new pornography ? if he fell from Grace he can get back up and be back in God graces .. i still like to listen to some old rock songs..is it from the devil? maybe so is country music ..satan is the greatest musician..if a man repents from his sin God will in no wise cast out...

 

[WIP]

Hi Vanguard,

If someone asks you why bad things happen to good people please contact me. I'd love to meet this good person that somebody has found!
Mark 10:18 (NAS) - And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.

The proper question is "Why does anything good happen to us evil creatures?"

God bless,
Brian

 

[iLOVE]

The story of "Job" gives us the answer to "why". Job 42:3 You asked, 'Who is this that questions my wisdom with such ignorance?' It is I--and I was talking about things I knew nothing about, things far too wonderful for me.

This shows us God is in control and He has a plan. Tragedy could happen for doing right - through others people sins. For doing wrong because of your sins. Or for no apparent reason; things too wonderful for us to understand. Whichever of these tragedies happen, it is allowed by God due to His plan and purpose. Somethings we will not be able to understand until we get to heaven. Jesus did state we will have suffering.

 

[Vanguard]

It would also seem that replacing the word "it" with "free will" is nothing more than changing the scriptures to arrive at your own preferred conclusion.

Clergymen do it all the time. They cherry pick a verse, take it completely out of context and use it as the example to a point they are trying to illustrate. However, that is not my intent. I try to break down the individual verse, look at multiple possible meanings (the most commonly assumed one is not necessarily the best one) and go from there. My example in replacing "it" with the words "free will" was an exercise in linguistics, based off interpretation. Furthermore, the source for the quoted John 19 was not given. In the NASB, which is far more literal and accurate IMO, the word is not "power" but "authority." Power means you have control over someone or something. Authority means you answer to the authority, but does not necessarily imply the power to control. Ex.: a female cop is an authority, but she certainly does not have power over me.

Edit: had to log off...something about a 4 year old not wanting to go to bed. Continuing on...

Yes, we can sit here and pick apart each verse word for word, cross reference it to X amount of translations, and what you'll find is that pretty much anything can be spun your way. Once again, this is not my intent. I try to look at things from a variety of angles, and to get an idea of the bigger picture. As I have stated, I do not take the Bible literally word for word over every verse, especially since it was written for a ~2,000 year old culture that is far removed from modern day Christianity. The overall theme of the Bible would include not only the religious aspect of the region/time period, but also the political, philosophical, warmongering, financial and imperial aspects. All of that would have influence on the various authors (many of which are unknown).

In short, be open minded and look at things from multiple angles. Your interpretation may not be my interpretation. All that truly matters is that God is the focus of our lives, we are saved through Jesus, and we love our neighbors.