Free Will, Predeterminism and Predestination

[seeker2122]

So we know that one of the attributes of God is that he is all-knowing and all-present,
which means that he knows everything past, present, and future.

We're told that we have also been given free will to make our own choices.

However, this would mean that nothing we choose out of our free will would come as a "surprise" to God as if he didn't know that was going to happen. He already knows then what choices we are going to make now and the future.

So this means 1 of 2 things.
Either
A) Everything is already predetermined and predestined by God and he knows all that will happen because he is not limited to time but outside of time which means seeing the past and future is simultaneous for him. There is only one universe/timeline that is going to play out and nothing else that would "surprise" God like a "twist" he didn't see coming.

or

B) God has created an infinite number of timelines/multiverses that exist BASED on every possible choice that every single human being makes in the history of this timeline. In other words, God would still know the outcome of all the infinite other possible timelines based on what choice I make today. So we still have free will to choose which timeline we are going to play out based on the choices I make today, right here, right now. God doesn't actually know which timeline I'm going to play out because it's my free will to choose BUT he does know what the outcome and entire timeline of every possible choice I make. (Follow me on this: So God already knows my entire life and timeline if I choose to disobey him and not live the life He wants for me AND he knows the entire life and timeline if I choose to obey him and follow him wholeheartedly. All the possible outcomes he already knows, but since we have free will, He is allows us to choose which timeline we are actually going to play out and that is the only part He doesn't actually know what I'll choose.

Please comment or correct me.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Thanks for your openness. God knowing doesn’t mean God determining. Sorry this is a bit gross but it’s likely not easily forgotten. If I substitute white long thin live worms for spaghetti and pour bolognese sauce over them, I KNOW how my children will react. That doesn’t mean I determined it. Physicists have learned that if certain components are combined in a certain way, a very predictable outcome will occur. This doesn’t mean they have made this happen through mental prowess. The whole modern world runs on us KNOWING what will happen if we do X,Y,Z but no one thinks that’s determining by mental strength the outcome. It is known because of our knowledge. God has vastly superior knowledge. That is one reason why He knows, but doesn’t determine.

 

[seeker2122]

Thanks for your openness. God knowing doesn’t mean God determining. Sorry this is a bit gross but it’s likely not easily forgotten. If I substitute white long thin live worms for spaghetti and pour bolognese sauce over them, I KNOW how my children will react. That doesn’t mean I determined it. Physicists have learned that if certain components are combined in a certain way, a very predictable outcome will occur. This doesn’t mean they have made this happen through mental prowess. The whole modern world runs on us KNOWING what will happen if we do X,Y,Z but no one thinks that’s determining by mental strength the outcome. It is known because of our knowledge. God has vastly superior knowledge. That is one reason why He knows, but doesn’t determine.

I agree that God knows how everything would turn out. Not even just guessing or hypothesis, he wouldn't have to do that. He would know everything exactly right down to the littlest detail. This is why I wondered if God actually has an infinite thread of timelines/universes that exist which means that there isn't just one timeline that is predetermined before we even existed but based on the free will choices of humans, we are selecting one of the infinite timelines God has created and already knows how everything is turns out (because in every one of those infinite timelines, he still fulfills the eschatology and soteriology story).

This might get a little confusing to read but here is a scenario that I was wrestling with that led me to this conflict of predeterminism/predestination and free will.

God had a great plan for me before I was born. He already knew me and formed me. The life he had planned for me was going to be a great one for him. I would be a righteous and suffering servant full of faith and through my obedience to God, He was going to lead me to great things and places I could never imagine possible. But due to my lack of faith and constant regression falling back into sin, I failed to fulfill the life he had planned for me. I will never be that "person" that I was supposedly supposed to become. Now saying this, God must have known then from the very beginning that I was never going to be able to surrender 100% and be the man of faith to become a great servant of God. So if he already knew this, why would he continue to prevent certain things from happening in my life because they would be "hindrances" to my faith and challenge my love for Christ as #1 in my life? I've always wanted to have that "romantic/eros" humanly love with someone and live that picturesque love life of being young lovers, but God knew that if he allowed me to have that in my life, since I am a hardcore romantic at heart ever since I was in elementary school, he knew that I'd put my GF/wife as #1 in my life way above Jesus and the church, at least for the majority of my life (it's sort of easier to fall in love with God when you are desperately in need say at your death bed or old age and young love romance has long withered away). But in my prime years, God knows she would have been at the throne of my heart and not Jesus so that is why he kept me from having it.

But if God knew from the beginning that I was never going to make Jesus #1 in my life anyways, then why would he still keep that "hindrance" from me? If I'm going to fall short and fail in the end, then I'd much rather have met that end with someone to love (earthly love/eros...not phileo, not agape) rather than to meet that same end being decrepit, miserable, and alone.

This is why I believed that OPTION 2 must be true. If he is preventing me or not giving me what I want because he knows those things are in competition with Jesus and would hinder me from becoming the great servant of God, then that would suggest there is a room of opportunity that I could make the right decision to place Jesus #1. Maybe after that God will bless me with the other things in my life so long as I was right with Jesus. This suggests that there is wiggle room for us to choose a different timeline/path (even though God already knows all the infinite timelines of my existence it at least means that it wasn't predetermined and predestined but that I had the power to choose).

If OPTION 1 is the only true answer, it means God already knows what I was going to choose anyways and that I was going to fail to live a life of obedience to Him, so then why block some of those "hindrances" in the first place because
it wasn't going to matter anyways. Whether he provided an easier path for me to him by blocking girls/girlfriends/eros love in my life thinking that was going to make me focus only on Him and become a much better servant of God, or not block any hindrances and let it hinder me because my decision in the end was always going to be the same (predetermined/predestined). I would fail to meet his expectations of living fully submitted to God's will. I can probably live out my life submitting about 50% of my life to God and Jesus as my Lord. I still and always will believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and that he died for my sins and that he loves me with agape love, and this his grace is greater than my sins, and his mercies are new every morning. Some might say that living as a lukewarm Christian will not get you into heaven and Jesus will claim he never knew me at the day of judgment.

If the only way to heaven is to be 99 or 100% fully faithful and surrendered to God, then I can see why only a very few people will make it through the narrow gates but the majority of Christians who thought they were saved will be in for a rude awakening.

Sorry if it was a bit hard to understand.

 

[Who Me]

So we know that one of the attributes of God is that he is all-knowing and all-present,
which means that he knows everything past, present, and future.

We're told that we have also been given free will to make our own choices.

However, this would mean that nothing we choose out of our free will would come as a "surprise" to God as if he didn't know that was going to happen. He already knows then what choices we are going to make now and the future.

So this means 1 of 2 things.
Either
A) Everything is already predetermined and predestined by God and he knows all that will happen because he is not limited to time but outside of time which means seeing the past and future is simultaneous for him. There is only one universe/timeline that is going to play out and nothing else that would "surprise" God like a "twist" he didn't see coming.

or

B) God has created an infinite number of timelines/multiverses that exist BASED on every possible choice that every single human being makes in the history of this timeline. In other words, God would still know the outcome of all the infinite other possible timelines based on what choice I make today. So we still have free will to choose which timeline we are going to play out based on the choices I make today, right here, right now. God doesn't actually know which timeline I'm going to play out because it's my free will to choose BUT he does know what the outcome and entire timeline of every possible choice I make. (Follow me on this: So God already knows my entire life and timeline if I choose to disobey him and not live the life He wants for me AND he knows the entire life and timeline if I choose to obey him and follow him wholeheartedly. All the possible outcomes he already knows, but since we have free will, He is allows us to choose which timeline we are actually going to play out and that is the only part He doesn't actually know what I'll choose.

Please comment or correct me.

God created this universe. The multiverse is theory that cannot be proved.

Whether God predesinines, just foreknows or permits us freewill is an interesting question but one that is irrelevent, as a ' seeker ' the only question that matters is Did Jesus rise from the dead?

If he did, then Christianity is true and you need to become a Christian.

If he didn't rise from the dead, take your pick of any other belief system.

 

[hawkman]

So we know that one of the attributes of God is that he is all-knowing and all-present,
which means that he knows everything past, present, and future.

God doesn't actually know which timeline I'm going to play out because it's my free will to choose

God KNOWS you , he knows what choices you will make . He knows every road you will turn down .

I once had a dream , the dream was different and extra real and in fact I told my wife about it but I soon passed it off as just a dream . About six months later through many odd choices I made I was living the dream out in IRL , what a shock it was . I was shown my future but did not understand at the time I had the dream .

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I agree that God knows how everything would turn out. Not even just guessing or hypothesis, he wouldn't have to do that. He would know everything exactly right down to the littlest detail. This is why I wondered if God actually has an infinite thread of timelines/universes that exist which means that there isn't just one timeline that is predetermined before we even existed but based on the free will choices of humans, we are selecting one of the infinite timelines God has created and already knows how everything is turns out (because in every one of those infinite timelines, he still fulfills the eschatology and soteriology story).

This might get a little confusing to read but here is a scenario that I was wrestling with that led me to this conflict of predeterminism/predestination and free will.

God had a great plan for me before I was born. He already knew me and formed me. The life he had planned for me was going to be a great one for him. I would be a righteous and suffering servant full of faith and through my obedience to God, He was going to lead me to great things and places I could never imagine possible. But due to my lack of faith and constant regression falling back into sin, I failed to fulfill the life he had planned for me. I will never be that "person" that I was supposedly supposed to become. Now saying this, God must have known then from the very beginning that I was never going to be able to surrender 100% and be the man of faith to become a great servant of God. So if he already knew this, why would he continue to prevent certain things from happening in my life because they would be "hindrances" to my faith and challenge my love for Christ as #1 in my life? I've always wanted to have that "romantic/eros" humanly love with someone and live that picturesque love life of being young lovers, but God knew that if he allowed me to have that in my life, since I am a hardcore romantic at heart ever since I was in elementary school, he knew that I'd put my GF/wife as #1 in my life way above Jesus and the church, at least for the majority of my life (it's sort of easier to fall in love with God when you are desperately in need say at your death bed or old age and young love romance has long withered away). But in my prime years, God knows she would have been at the throne of my heart and not Jesus so that is why he kept me from having it.

But if God knew from the beginning that I was never going to make Jesus #1 in my life anyways, then why would he still keep that "hindrance" from me? If I'm going to fall short and fail in the end, then I'd much rather have met that end with someone to love (earthly love/eros...not phileo, not agape) rather than to meet that same end being decrepit, miserable, and alone.

This is why I believed that OPTION 2 must be true. If he is preventing me or not giving me what I want because he knows those things are in competition with Jesus and would hinder me from becoming the great servant of God, then that would suggest there is a room of opportunity that I could make the right decision to place Jesus #1. Maybe after that God will bless me with the other things in my life so long as I was right with Jesus. This suggests that there is wiggle room for us to choose a different timeline/path (even though God already knows all the infinite timelines of my existence it at least means that it wasn't predetermined and predestined but that I had the power to choose).

If OPTION 1 is the only true answer, it means God already knows what I was going to choose anyways and that I was going to fail to live a life of obedience to Him, so then why block some of those "hindrances" in the first place because
it wasn't going to matter anyways. Whether he provided an easier path for me to him by blocking girls/girlfriends/eros love in my life thinking that was going to make me focus only on Him and become a much better servant of God, or not block any hindrances and let it hinder me because my decision in the end was always going to be the same (predetermined/predestined). I would fail to meet his expectations of living fully submitted to God's will. I can probably live out my life submitting about 50% of my life to God and Jesus as my Lord. I still and always will believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and that he died for my sins and that he loves me with agape love, and this his grace is greater than my sins, and his mercies are new every morning. Some might say that living as a lukewarm Christian will not get you into heaven and Jesus will claim he never knew me at the day of judgment.

If the only way to heaven is to be 99 or 100% fully faithful and surrendered to God, then I can see why only a very few people will make it through the narrow gates but the majority of Christians who thought they were saved will be in for a rude awakening.

Sorry if it was a bit hard to understand.

It’s not difficult to understand at all. You’ve just communicated a lot and I probably cannot address all of it.

I’ll tell you about my view are foreknowledge some 40 years ago. I was struggling with some decisions and I was asking God to tell me what I will decide since He already knows it. That produced mental gymnastics that was like a cramp in my brain. After a while I had to abandon that and I told Him, “I know you know the future but I’m going to pretend you are in time so it’s easy to deal with decision making.” That helped me at the time although that isn’t my view now which is improved in understanding. But more on that later.

There’s a lot you shared but if I got it right, you are disappointed in yourself and how you haven’t lived up to His plan. You also seem to want a wife to love and cherish. You’re trying to figure out how God deals with this which is called in the ways of God.

I offer you my view for your consideration. All of it I can back up with scripture but I won’t copy and paste it right now in the interest of brevity. I don’t believe God has an exciting and a great and impressive plan for every person at conception. I, for example, am a NOBODY and haven’t lived a great plan in the eyes of God or man. But…I’ve had a very satisfying life and I can add deeply satisfying although from the worlds standard, less than most (materially and professionally less than most.) But I have come to know the ways of God and I have experienced Him being pleased with what I did. That taste was so powerful all I want when I stand before Him is to hear, “well done daughter.” I don’t want to be great, just pleasing to Him. I understand God and can tell you with absolute certainty that your thinking doesn’t match who He is. If you’re open to reconsider, you can find the truth and it’s extremely freeing.

God doesn’t need 100% surrender. He’s willing to work with what you give although our surrender or refusal does hold us back as you rightly said. He’s patient and waits. He spoke through a donkey once who hadn’t much to give. He doesn’t need much just obedience as and when asked.

But He is not micromanaging the world and so isn’t withholding a wife based on his foreknowledge. It’s worse than that. Women have the freedom to choose their spouse same as men. I was once asking God to give me a certain brother as a husband and He told me that the young man has free will to choose. When the servant was sent to get a wife for Isaac, even though it was clear to the servant that Rebecca was God’s choice, they asked her if she agreed. She could have refused. So God isn’t managing this based on foreknowledge.

In fact, it’s best not to build any theology in trying to figure out how God experiences his foreknowledge. He isn’t like us just bigger. How we experience understanding how something will go from education and experience is only a bit like He experiences it.

Now as to your situation. You haven’t missed Gods plan so don’t beat yourself up about it. Jeremiah and John and Jesus and a few others were called from birth for His special service but that’s rare. Most of us are not. Means you didn’t miss it. But you can start living your life as He wants.

Don’t try to imagine what you should surrender. That brings bondage and no help us given to self-improvement efforts. Go to him in prayer and ask Him to examine your life, judge it, if you will and respond to whatever He shows you. The Holy Spirit will show as much as He deems right at that point in time. Whatever He tells you to do, do it. He gives grace to respond when we are dependent upon Him.

Since you want a wife, ask Him for one. He made you so that you’d want a partner in life. So ask for one but I suggest you surrender your rights to one. Give that area to him.

Stop beating yourself up about failure. Ask forgiveness where necessary and move on. He gave His life so that can walk in freedom and peace. It’s the enemy that condemns us but there is no legitimate condemnation for those in Christ Jesus.

This is long enough. There’s more that can be said if you wish.

Wanting the best for you,
D

 

[for_his_glory]

God did not predestine the man (which individuals would be saved & lost), He predestined the plan (how men would be saved) - read again Acts 10:34-35; Eph. 1:3-12; Rom. 8:28-30; 10:9-17.

The Bible reveals that regarding free-will and predestination it is not one or the other, but rather both. That is, the Bible teaches both the free-will of man and God's election or predestination. Unfortunately the teachings and creeds of men have misdefined these Biblical concepts so that the impression is left that one cannot have both, but only one or the other. We must accept the whole counsel of God on this subject instead of the wisdom of men (Gal. 1:6-10; 1 Cor. 1:18-21).

Many people teach that man either has no free-will (fatalism) or limited amounts of it. The Bible teaches that every person with a moral capacity has the freedom of will to decide whether or not to obey God. Simply put, the Bible teaches that God elected (predestined or set in place) to save every soul who fears (respects) God and works righteousness, (Acts 10:34-35). That is, before time eternal, God predestined that men would be saved "in Christ" (Eph. 1:3-4, 7-12). God predestined the "plan" of human redemption (Eph. 3:10-11).

God also determined that man would have free-will, the ability and responsibility to choose to obey Him (cf. Gen. 3:1-6; Josh. 24:15; Matt. 11:28). God did not predestine the man (which individuals would be saved & lost), He predestined the plan (how men would be saved) - read again Acts 10:34-35; Eph. 1:3-12; Rom. 8:28-30; 10:9-17.​

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I was struggling with some decisions and I was asking God to tell me what I will decide since He already knows it. That produced mental gymnastics that was like a cramp in my brain. After a while I had to abandon that and I told Him, “I know you know the future but I’m going to pretend you are in time so it’s easy to deal with decision making.” That helped me at the time although that isn’t my view now which is improved in understanding.

Yes, I think it best to forget about it and just operate in the simplicity of the present time and situation. It's fine to contemplate the matter of God's omniscience, and free will, etc., but overthinking it and adapting your decision making and relationship with God according to it just leads to frustration. And so I have come to the place of simply praying and seeking God as if life is a play by play, blow by blow event, but one that ultimately has a good outcome, despite the hurts and disappointments along the way. It's very satisfying to do that. I think it falls under the category of being like a child in the kingdom of God. Like growing up in our own father's homes without concern for how our parents, or parent, were keeping track of our lives. That's what God wants for us in our relationship with Him. Just know he's got this.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Many people teach that man either has no free-will (fatalism) or limited amounts of it. The Bible teaches that every person with a moral capacity has the freedom of will to decide whether or not to obey God.

Okay, I 'liked' your post because I agree with 99% of what you said (even though you have more posts than I and have a higher reaction score ).

What we have is limited free will. Our free will operates within the boundaries that God has established for us to operate in. For example, I can't be in New Delhi by 4:30 this afternoon. Even if I wanted to! The boundaries God has set for me make it impossible for me to exercise my free will in this regard. But for other people it's a short motor scooter ride down the road to fulfill their free will to do so. So let's dump this idea about 'free will'. Doesn't exist. We only have the free will God allows us to have. Like a rat in a maze. We can only exercise our free will in the boundaries that have been determined for us. And God establishes those boundaries with the ultimate goal of saving us.

Acts 17:26-27
26From one mand He made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and He determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their lands.

27God intended that they would seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us.

So, as we can see, God gives us favorable, or unfavorable, circumstances in accordance with his desire for us to find Him. And so our free will is limited to the boundaries he has set. And this is not just according to natural boundaries. Our free will to receive Christ and be saved can only happen when God makes it so we can freely do that. He's adjusting everything, physically, mentally, and emotionally, to persuade us to freely accept him. Our free will operates, and can only operate, within his will. He has in effect told you what free will you will have and what free will you won't have. Ultimately, in order to serve His purposes, not ours.

 

[for_his_glory]

Okay, I 'liked' your post because I agree with 99% of what you said (even though you have more posts than I and have a higher reaction score ).

What we have is limited free will. Our free will operates within the boundaries that God has established for us to operate in. For example, I can't be in New Delhi by 4:30 this afternoon. Even if I wanted to! The boundaries God has set for me make it impossible for me to exercise my free will in this regard. But for other people it's a short motor scooter ride down the road to fulfill their free will to do so. So let's dump this idea about 'free will'. Doesn't exist. We only have the free will God allows us to have. Like a rat in a maze. We can only exercise our free will in the boundaries that have been determined for us. And God establishes those boundaries with the ultimate goal of saving us.

Acts 17:26-27
26From one mand He made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and He determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their lands.

27God intended that they would seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us.

So, as we can see, God gives us favorable, or unfavorable, circumstances in accordance with his desire for us to find Him. And so our free will is limited to the boundaries he has set. And this is not just according to natural boundaries. Our free will to receive Christ and be saved can only happen when God makes it so we can freely do that. He's adjusting everything, physically, mentally, and emotionally, to persuade us to freely accept him. Our free will operates, and can only operate, within his will. He has in effect told you what free will you will have and what free will you won't have. Ultimately, in order to serve His purposes, not ours.

Very well said and good to see you again

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So this means 1 of 2 things.
Either
A) Everything is already predetermined and predestined by God and he knows all that will happen because he is not limited to time but outside of time which means seeing the past and future is simultaneous for him. There is only one universe/timeline that is going to play out and nothing else that would "surprise" God like a "twist" he didn't see coming.

I think this is very close to the truth of the matter. But, IMO, the one thing that is not predetermined/predestined by God is whether or not the soil of your heart will receive and retain and bring to fruition the seed knowledge of the kingdom if given all favorable circumstances to do so. Some say God does determine ahead of time if you'll be created as good soil or bad soil. Some say he does not and it's a matter of seeing what you are, but surely, God already knowing which you are.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

B) God has created an infinite number of timelines/multiverses that exist BASED on every possible choice that every single human being makes in the history of this timeline. In other words, God would still know the outcome of all the infinite other possible timelines based on what choice I make today. So we still have free will to choose which timeline we are going to play out based on the choices I make today, right here, right now. God doesn't actually know which timeline I'm going to play out because it's my free will to choose BUT he does know what the outcome and entire timeline of every possible choice I make. (Follow me on this: So God already knows my entire life and timeline if I choose to disobey him and not live the life He wants for me AND he knows the entire life and timeline if I choose to obey him and follow him wholeheartedly. All the possible outcomes he already knows, but since we have free will, He is allows us to choose which timeline we are actually going to play out and that is the only part He doesn't actually know what I'll choose.

I think you can dismiss this altogether. Ultimately, there is only one timeline that you're going to follow—the one God has determined for you to freely follow (no, that's not contradictory). He does this by carefully controlling the environment in which your "free will" is allowed to operate. If you are, ultimately, soil that won't receive and retain the word of God, God will limit your free will into the boundaries that accommodate that fact. Just as he will do that if your soil is, ultimately, soil that will receive and retain the word of God. Whatever potential God knows you have as a person is the potential that God will create circumstances to bring forth.

Let's put this into real life. Paul uses Pharaoh to illustrate the sovereignty of God in this matter of predetermination and free will. As we know God did not have mercy and compassion on him, but instead hardened his heart, removing his freewill to choose the truth. To get right to the point, did God choose for him whether or not he would be created as soil that would receive and retain the word of God? I say, no. IMO, that lack of potential in him is a product of who and what Pharaoh is in and of himself as a created being and not a result of what God purposely made him to be. Would Pharaoh have responded differently if God would have just let him receive his mercy and compassion? I say, ultimately, no. God knew Pharaoh was soil that in and of itself in the end would not receive and retain the knowledge of God no matter what God did to allow that to happen. And so he was placed in a time and place in history useful to God where Pharaoh's freedom to receive His mercy and compassion were taken away from him in order to serve God's purpose. Just as Mary, for example, was placed in a time and place in history useful to God where her freedom to receive God's mercy and compassion were given to her in order to serve God's purpose.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Very well said and good to see you again

 

[Tenchi]

So we know that one of the attributes of God is that he is all-knowing and all-present,
which means that he knows everything past, present, and future.

We're told that we have also been given free will to make our own choices.

However, this would mean that nothing we choose out of our free will would come as a "surprise" to God as if he didn't know that was going to happen. He already knows then what choices we are going to make now and the future.

So this means 1 of 2 things.
Either
A) Everything is already predetermined and predestined by God and he knows all that will happen because he is not limited to time but outside of time which means seeing the past and future is simultaneous for him. There is only one universe/timeline that is going to play out and nothing else that would "surprise" God like a "twist" he didn't see coming.

Hey! Just joined this webforum and saw this thread and thought maybe I could help shed some light on the issue you've raised concerning God's foreknowledge and our free agency. As dorothymae has already pointed out, foreknowledge doesn't equal causation. Knowing that something will happen doesn't necessarily mean you're the cause of it. I can watch a cat licking its fur and know that the result will be that, at some later point in time, it will cough up a hairball. I haven't, of course, made the cat lick its fur, nor do I have any causal involvement with the resulting hairball. My knowledge, then, of a future event doesn't equate to being the cause of that event.

God's foreknowledge doesn't necessitate direct causality, either. Sure, He's ultimately the First Cause of everything but this doesn't mean He is the direct, primary cause of say, the killing of children on the red-hot arms of Molech, about which God declared,

Jeremiah 19:3-5 (NASB)
3 and say, 'Hear the word of the LORD, O kings of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, "Behold I am about to bring a calamity upon this place, at which the ears of everyone that hears of it will tingle.
4 "Because they have forsaken Me and have made this an alien place and have burned sacrifices in it to other gods, that neither they nor their forefathers nor the kings of Judah had ever known, and because they have filled this place with the blood of the innocent
5 and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, a thing which I never commanded or spoke of, nor did it ever enter My mind;

God also says that no one is tempted by Him but all are 'drawn away of their own lust and enticed." (James 1:13-14) And so, a person can't lay their wicked conduct at the feet of God saying, "He made me do it."

Anyway, God has always known all things. He doesn't have to "look at" a timeline of progressive events, discovering what will happen by doing so. Instead, His omniscience means that at no time has God not known everything - even before the universe began. If there has ever been a point at which God has not known everything, then He cannot be said to be truly omniscient. And if He is not omniscient, then He is not God. So, you're correct to say that nothing surprises God.

B) God has created an infinite number of timelines/multiverses that exist BASED on every possible choice that every single human being makes in the history of this timeline. In other words, God would still know the outcome of all the infinite other possible timelines based on what choice I make today. So we still have free will to choose which timeline we are going to play out based on the choices I make today, right here, right now. God doesn't actually know which timeline I'm going to play out because it's my free will to choose BUT he does know what the outcome and entire timeline of every possible choice I make. (Follow me on this: So God already knows my entire life and timeline if I choose to disobey him and not live the life He wants for me AND he knows the entire life and timeline if I choose to obey him and follow him wholeheartedly. All the possible outcomes he already knows, but since we have free will, He is allows us to choose which timeline we are actually going to play out and that is the only part He doesn't actually know what I'll choose.

Please comment or correct me.

God, I believe, possesses what Molinists call "middle knowledge," made up of "counterfactuals of creaturely freedom." These are things God knows would happen if certain states of affairs were attained to. Scripture gives examples of such knowledge:


Isaiah 48:17-18 (NASB)
17 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel, "I am the LORD your God, who teaches you to profit, Who leads you in the way you should go.
18 "If only you had paid attention to My commandments! Then your well-being would have been like a river, And your righteousness like the waves of the sea.

Matthew 11:21 (NASB)
21 "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had occurred in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

These aren't descriptions of "timelines" but only of possible states-of-affairs that would attain under the conditions described. In light of the fact that there is zero physical evidence that a multiverse exists, philosophers speak of "possible worlds" in which these counterfactuals occur rather than of infinite multiverse timelines that actually exist, the events of which are all occurring simultaneously. It isn't necessary for God to create such timelines in order to accommodate all possible free choices you might make. He knows what you would choose in any and all given circumstances, in any possible world, and instantiates the one that best suits His purposes and nature. In this way, your choices are free while God remains sovereign over them.

You might enjoy Dr. William Lane Craig's work on this matter: www.reasonablefaith.org

Dr. Leighton Flowers also has some great resources dealing with the matter of human free will, though from a counter-Calvinist perspective: www.soteriology101.com

 

[for_his_glory]

God, I believe, possesses what Molinists call "middle knowledge," made up of "counterfactuals of creaturely freedom." These are things God knows would happen if certain states of affairs were attained to. Scripture gives examples of such knowledge:

Molinism derives from the name of the 16th century Spanish Jesuit priest and Roman Catholic theologian Luis de Molina and it was his thesis that God has middle knowledge which is not Biblical as God is infinite in our beginning and ending and gives us a portion of freewill to make conscience choices.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Heb 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

5 and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, a thing which I never commanded or spoke of, nor did it ever enter My mind;

I see this as it never entered into God's mind that this could or would somehow ever be a part of their worship. But, yes, he is in no way surprised that it happened. He knew it would happen before creation itself.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Hey! Just joined this webforum and saw this thread and thought maybe I could help shed some light on the issue you've raised concerning God's foreknowledge and our free agency. As dorothymae has already pointed out, foreknowledge doesn't equal causation. Knowing that something will happen doesn't necessarily mean you're the cause of it. I can watch a cat licking its fur and know that the result will be that, at some later point in time, it will cough up a hairball. I haven't, of course, made the cat lick its fur, nor do I have any causal involvement with the resulting hairball. My knowledge, then, of a future event doesn't equate to being the cause of that event.

God's foreknowledge doesn't necessitate direct causality, either. Sure, He's ultimately the First Cause of everything but this doesn't mean He is the direct, primary cause of say, the killing of children on the red-hot arms of Molech, about which God declared,

Jeremiah 19:3-5 (NASB)
3 and say, 'Hear the word of the LORD, O kings of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, "Behold I am about to bring a calamity upon this place, at which the ears of everyone that hears of it will tingle.
4 "Because they have forsaken Me and have made this an alien place and have burned sacrifices in it to other gods, that neither they nor their forefathers nor the kings of Judah had ever known, and because they have filled this place with the blood of the innocent
5 and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, a thing which I never commanded or spoke of, nor did it ever enter My mind;

God also says that no one is tempted by Him but all are 'drawn away of their own lust and enticed." (James 1:13-14) And so, a person can't lay their wicked conduct at the feet of God saying, "He made me do it."

Anyway, God has always known all things. He doesn't have to "look at" a timeline of progressive events, discovering what will happen by doing so. Instead, His omniscience means that at no time has God not known everything - even before the universe began. If there has ever been a point at which God has not known everything, then He cannot be said to be truly omniscient. And if He is not omniscient, then He is not God. So, you're correct to say that nothing surprises God.



God, I believe, possesses what Molinists call "middle knowledge," made up of "counterfactuals of creaturely freedom." These are things God knows would happen if certain states of affairs were attained to. Scripture gives examples of such knowledge:


Isaiah 48:17-18 (NASB)
17 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel, "I am the LORD your God, who teaches you to profit, Who leads you in the way you should go.
18 "If only you had paid attention to My commandments! Then your well-being would have been like a river, And your righteousness like the waves of the sea.

Matthew 11:21 (NASB)
21 "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had occurred in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

These aren't descriptions of "timelines" but only of possible states-of-affairs that would attain under the conditions described. In light of the fact that there is zero physical evidence that a multiverse exists, philosophers speak of "possible worlds" in which these counterfactuals occur rather than of infinite multiverse timelines that actually exist, the events of which are all occurring simultaneously. It isn't necessary for God to create such timelines in order to accommodate all possible free choices you might make. He knows what you would choose in any and all given circumstances, in any possible world, and instantiates the one that best suits His purposes and nature. In this way, your choices are free while God remains sovereign over them.

You might enjoy Dr. William Lane Craig's work on this matter: www.reasonablefaith.org

Dr. Leighton Flowers also has some great resources dealing with the matter of human free will, though from a counter-Calvinist perspective: www.soteriology101.com

Nice reply. A well thought out position. The whole of the topic is man trying to guess what being omniscient for God is and putting into the tiny box of our experience. False understanding comes from piling one false assumption upon another and pridefully refusing to examine it, The other problem is man wanting to make it simple whereas God is COMPLEX.

In the end, He is beyond figuring out but not beyond Him explaining Himself.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I see this as it never entered into God's mind that this could or would somehow ever be a part of their worship. But, yes, he is in no way surprised that it happened. He knew it would happen before creation itself.

If He wanted to know it.

 

[n2thelight]

So we know that one of the attributes of God is that he is all-knowing and all-present,
which means that he knows everything past, present, and future.

We're told that we have also been given free will to make our own choices.

However, this would mean that nothing we choose out of our free will would come as a "surprise" to God as if he didn't know that was going to happen. He already knows then what choices we are going to make now and the future.

So this means 1 of 2 things.
Either
A) Everything is already predetermined and predestined by God and he knows all that will happen because he is not limited to time but outside of time which means seeing the past and future is simultaneous for him. There is only one universe/timeline that is going to play out and nothing else that would "surprise" God like a "twist" he didn't see coming.

or

B) God has created an infinite number of timelines/multiverses that exist BASED on every possible choice that every single human being makes in the history of this timeline. In other words, God would still know the outcome of all the infinite other possible timelines based on what choice I make today. So we still have free will to choose which timeline we are going to play out based on the choices I make today, right here, right now. God doesn't actually know which timeline I'm going to play out because it's my free will to choose BUT he does know what the outcome and entire timeline of every possible choice I make. (Follow me on this: So God already knows my entire life and timeline if I choose to disobey him and not live the life He wants for me AND he knows the entire life and timeline if I choose to obey him and follow him wholeheartedly. All the possible outcomes he already knows, but since we have free will, He is allows us to choose which timeline we are actually going to play out and that is the only part He doesn't actually know what I'll choose.

Please comment or correct me.

God does not know who will chose Him ,except for His elect

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I think you can dismiss this altogether. Ultimately, there is only one timeline that you're going to follow—the one God has determined for you to freely follow (no, that's not contradictory).

That is totally contradictory.

He does this by carefully controlling the environment in which your "free will" is allowed to operate.

No evidence he does this (manipulation) and all evidence is He doesn’t. Those in the Bible punished for failing to choose the plan were not manipulated by God through circumstances to do so.

If you are, ultimately, soil that won't receive and retain the word of God, God will limit your free will into the boundaries that accommodate that fact.

That’s the opposite of the parable which plainly states that the poor soil are people with no root in them. Their choice.

Just as he will do that if your soil is, ultimately, soil that will receive and retain the word of God. Whatever potential God knows you have as a person is the potential that God will create circumstances to bring forth.

There isn't to a single promise to support that. Not one.

Let's put this into real life. Paul uses Pharaoh to illustrate the sovereignty of God in this matter of predetermination and free will. As we know God did not have mercy and compassion on him, but instead hardened his heart, removing his freewill to choose the truth.

You forget that passages where Pharaoh chose to harden his OWN heart. And it says God raised him up, not manipulated him. This was an unusual practice, by the way.

To get right to the point, did God choose for him whether or not he would be created as soil that would receive and retain the word of God?
I say, no. IMO, that lack of potential in him is a product of who and what Pharaoh is in and of himself as a created being and not a result of what God purposely made him to be. Would Pharaoh have responded differently if God would have just let him receive his mercy and compassion? I say, ultimately, no. God knew Pharaoh was soil that in and of itself in the end would not receive and retain the knowledge of God no matter what God did to allow that to happen. And so he was placed in a time and place in history useful to God where Pharaoh's freedom to receive His mercy and compassion were taken away from him in order to serve God's purpose.

Nothing was taken away from Pharaoh. Why not choose the obvious that the man was proud and stubborn. Look at Putin. He’s losing men and equipment and land and still he digs in and refuses his generals’ advise.

Just as Mary, for example, was placed in a time and place in history useful to God where her freedom to receive God's mercy and compassion were given to her in order to serve God's purpose.

Not so. Freedom is given to everyone.

You discount the strength a stubborn man can have and blame God instead. In this you err.