Free Will, Predeterminism and Predestination

[2nd Timothy Group]

Somebody has reported the abusive members and I will be removing them from this topic. I am sorry this occurred. Please use the report feature to draw our attention in the future as I do hope the sour apples have not left such a sour taste in your mouth you decide to leave.

Oh my goodness! With this kind of support from the owner . . . I am definitely encouraged to stay. I like the manner in which you have related to and with me.

Much respect to you, Mr. Bolts.

 

[WIP]

My apologies. I have been derelict and haven't been watching this discussion as I should have been. I would like to remind everyone that the Questions and Answers forum is not a forum for arguing different points of view. If you desire to do that, please start a new discussion in an appropriate forum where debating differing viewpoints and opinions are permitted. In this forum, please resign yourselves to answering the questions presented and avoid engaging other viewpoints in debate. Thank you.

 

[Iconoclast]

God did not predestine the man (which individuals would be saved & lost), He predestined the plan (how men would be saved) - read again Acts 10:34-35; Eph. 1:3-12; Rom. 8:28-30; 10:9-17.

The Bible reveals that regarding free-will and predestination it is not one or the other, but rather both. That is, the Bible teaches both the free-will of man and God's election or predestination. Unfortunately the teachings and creeds of men have misdefined these Biblical concepts so that the impression is left that one cannot have both, but only one or the other. We must accept the whole counsel of God on this subject instead of the wisdom of men (Gal. 1:6-10; 1 Cor. 1:18-21).

Many people teach that man either has no free-will (fatalism) or limited amounts of it. The Bible teaches that every person with a moral capacity has the freedom of will to decide whether or not to obey God. Simply put, the Bible teaches that God elected (predestined or set in place) to save every soul who fears (respects) God and works righteousness, (Acts 10:34-35). That is, before time eternal, God predestined that men would be saved "in Christ" (Eph. 1:3-4, 7-12). God predestined the "plan" of human redemption (Eph. 3:10-11).

God also determined that man would have free-will, the ability and responsibility to choose to obey Him (cf. Gen. 3:1-6; Josh. 24:15; Matt. 11:28). God did not predestine the man (which individuals would be saved & lost), He predestined the plan (how men would be saved) - read again Acts 10:34-35; Eph. 1:3-12; Rom. 8:28-30; 10:9-17.​

These verses do not teach what you suggest at all.
You seem to deny biblically revealed truth.
God elected all He intended to save.The Father have them to the Son.jn6:37-44.
The Son seeks and saves all of them.
He is not willing thay anyone of them perish.
He saves them all.
No more,no less.

 

[WIP]

These verses do not teach what you suggest at all.
You seem to deny biblically revealed truth.
God elected all He intended to save.The Father have them to the Son.jn6:37-44.
The Son seeks and saves all of them.
He is not willing thay anyone of them perish.
He saves them all.
No more,no less.

Please start a new discussion in the appropriate forum if you wish to dispute topics. In this forum, avoid debating issues and delegate your responses to answering the questions presented by the original poster.

 

[rstrats]

What if the OP doesn't agree with/accept the responses? Should a new topic be started?

 

[Mylene]

So we know that one of the attributes of God is that he is all-knowing and all-present,
which means that he knows everything past, present, and future.

We're told that we have also been given free will to make our own choices.

However, this would mean that nothing we choose out of our free will would come as a "surprise" to God as if he didn't know that was going to happen. He already knows then what choices we are going to make now and the future.

So this means 1 of 2 things.
Either
A) Everything is already predetermined and predestined by God and he knows all that will happen because he is not limited to time but outside of time which means seeing the past and future is simultaneous for him. There is only one universe/timeline that is going to play out and nothing else that would "surprise" God like a "twist" he didn't see coming.

or

B) God has created an infinite number of timelines/multiverses that exist BASED on every possible choice that every single human being makes in the history of this timeline. In other words, God would still know the outcome of all the infinite other possible timelines based on what choice I make today. So we still have free will to choose which timeline we are going to play out based on the choices I make today, right here, right now. God doesn't actually know which timeline I'm going to play out because it's my free will to choose BUT he does know what the outcome and entire timeline of every possible choice I make. (Follow me on this: So God already knows my entire life and timeline if I choose to disobey him and not live the life He wants for me AND he knows the entire life and timeline if I choose to obey him and follow him wholeheartedly. All the possible outcomes he already knows, but since we have free will, He is allows us to choose which timeline we are actually going to play out and that is the only part He doesn't actually know what I'll choose.

Please comment or correct me.

Have you ever heard of Open Theism?

 

[for_his_glory]

These verses do not teach what you suggest at all.
You seem to deny biblically revealed truth.
God elected all He intended to save.The Father have them to the Son.jn6:37-44.
The Son seeks and saves all of them.
He is not willing thay anyone of them perish.
He saves them all.
No more,no less.

First your member name does not reflect you as saying you are a Christian as you might want to look up the definition. Second, I do not ask anyone to agree with me, but to take the scriptures I give and study them for themselves and draw their own conclusions. I do not go by a majority rule traditional teaching.

God is not willing that anyone would perish, but yet sits and waits for those who will return back to Him, but not everyone will do that as we see in history how many that have damned themselves.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Either one chooses to accept Christ or reject Christ as it is by their own will.

 

[WIP]

What if the OP doesn't agree with/accept the responses? Should a new topic be started?

Then the OP can ask for clarification. What you're really asking is what if we disagree or don't accept a response by another member. In that case, you can present your own response to the OP but this is not the forum for arguing with the other members' responses.

 

[Iconoclast]

So we know that one of the attributes of God is that he is all-knowing and all-present,
which means that he knows everything past, present, and future.

We're told that we have also been given free will to make our own choices.

However, this would mean that nothing we choose out of our free will would come as a "surprise" to God as if he didn't know that was going to happen. He already knows then what choices we are going to make now and the future.

So this means 1 of 2 things.
Either
A) Everything is already predetermined and predestined by God and he knows all that will happen because he is not limited to time but outside of time which means seeing the past and future is simultaneous for him. There is only one universe/timeline that is going to play out and nothing else that would "surprise" God like a "twist" he didn't see coming.

or

B) God has created an infinite number of timelines/multiverses that exist BASED on every possible choice that every single human being makes in the history of this timeline. In other words, God would still know the outcome of all the infinite other possible timelines based on what choice I make today. So we still have free will to choose which timeline we are going to play out based on the choices I make today, right here, right now. God doesn't actually know which timeline I'm going to play out because it's my free will to choose BUT he does know what the outcome and entire timeline of every possible choice I make. (Follow me on this: So God already knows my entire life and timeline if I choose to disobey him and not live the life He wants for me AND he knows the entire life and timeline if I choose to obey him and follow him wholeheartedly. All the possible outcomes he already knows, but since we have free will, He is allows us to choose which timeline we are actually going to play out and that is the only part He doesn't actually know what I'll choose.

Please comment or correct me.

seeker2122,

Everyone makes choices, but where does the bible say our will is free?
There is no choosing of "possible timelines"
There is ONE created universe...not multi verses?

This might help;
Chapter 3: Of God's Decree
1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )
2._____ Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.
( Acts 15:18; Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18 )

3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )

4.______These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
( 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18 )

5._____ Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto.
( Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12 )

6._____ As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so he hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto; wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation; neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
( 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 10; Romans 8:30; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:5; John 10:26; John 17:9; John 6:64 )

7._____ The doctrine of the high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election; so shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God, and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.
( 1 Thessalonians 1:4, 5; 2 Peter 1:10; Ephesians 1:6; Romans 11:33; Romans 11:5, 6, 20; Luke 10:20 )

1689 Confession of Faith

 

[DJT_47]

Please see below my repost from elsewhere
Predestination (based upon the foreknowledge of God)

Premise: God knows the beginning and the end, so therefore he must also know all that will occur within the entire expanse of time including everything that will occur in the middle, between the beginning and the end of time.

Predestination as discussed in the bible (below passages) can therefore be easily explained when taking into consideration the foreknowledge that God possesses as also noted in scripture, which factor is germane to the proper understanding of predestination but is most often, if not always, overlooked and not considered when examining/discussing predestination.

Further, based upon God’s foreknowledge, all things must therefore then be already determined (destiny/fate); how can they not be if God knows the future? How can God know the future if it is fluid, dynamic, and changes, unless such fluidity and change is part of His foreknowledge, which it obviously must be? If things were fluid, dynamic, and/or random and subject to unexpected or unknown constant change to God, God would not know what was going to happen in the future and would not be able nor have been able to predict future events through His prophets. So, if God does know what will happen in the future, the future must already be set or determined and unchangeable (destiny/fate).

This premise further has profound implications when considering things such as prayer. This would have to then mean that God knows that you will (future) be praying for something before you pray for it. It doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t pray for it then, it simply means that the future is already known or has already been determined (due to God’s ‘foreknowledge’ of it), and your prayers, are simply fulfilling that which is already known to God and will occur as does everything else that occurs or will occur (also due to the “foreknowledge” of God). Whatever influences we think we have upon any given thing or subject through prayer or other actions, may in fact be as such, however, such influences are already known to God by His foreknowledge, and have therefore already been determined and are just the fulfillment of that which has already been determined will/should occur.

If God knows the beginning, the end, and as stated everything in between, then one can only conclude that all things have already been determined and are NOT able to be changed (destiny/fate) by prayer or anything else (once again due to the “foreknowledge” of God) and that all things that are done are so done in accordance with God’s plan and predicated upon and consistent with His “foreknowledge”. This is not to say that certain individuals were chosen first as being special or better than others and predestined accordingly, but rather means that once the plan was set into motion (the creation of all things), that the creation itself and related natural unfolding, sequential events, including the actions taken by individuals pursuant to the exercise of their own free will, would result in various things being done and events unfolding as a result thereof, but because God knows what those things will be in advance of them happening due to His “foreknowledge”, and predestination then being consistent with said “foreknowledge. Predestination then is successive to and in harmony with the “foreknowledge” of God.

Jer 1:5 5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Rom 8 28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

1 Pet 1:2 2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Eph 1 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

 

[Iconoclast]

Please see below my repost from elsewhere
Predestination (based upon the foreknowledge of God)

Premise: God knows the beginning and the end, so therefore he must also know all that will occur within the entire expanse of time including everything that will occur in the middle, between the beginning and the end of time.

Predestination as discussed in the bible (below passages) can therefore be easily explained when taking into consideration the foreknowledge that God possesses as also noted in scripture, which factor is germane to the proper understanding of predestination but is most often, if not always, overlooked and not considered when examining/discussing predestination.

Further, based upon God’s foreknowledge, all things must therefore then be already determined (destiny/fate); how can they not be if God knows the future? How can God know the future if it is fluid, dynamic, and changes, unless such fluidity and change is part of His foreknowledge, which it obviously must be? If things were fluid, dynamic, and/or random and subject to unexpected or unknown constant change to God, God would not know what was going to happen in the future and would not be able nor have been able to predict future events through His prophets. So, if God does know what will happen in the future, the future must already be set or determined and unchangeable (destiny/fate).

This premise further has profound implications when considering things such as prayer. This would have to then mean that God knows that you will (future) be praying for something before you pray for it. It doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t pray for it then, it simply means that the future is already known or has already been determined (due to God’s ‘foreknowledge’ of it), and your prayers, are simply fulfilling that which is already known to God and will occur as does everything else that occurs or will occur (also due to the “foreknowledge” of God). Whatever influences we think we have upon any given thing or subject through prayer or other actions, may in fact be as such, however, such influences are already known to God by His foreknowledge, and have therefore already been determined and are just the fulfillment of that which has already been determined will/should occur.

If God knows the beginning, the end, and as stated everything in between, then one can only conclude that all things have already been determined and are NOT able to be changed (destiny/fate) by prayer or anything else (once again due to the “foreknowledge” of God) and that all things that are done are so done in accordance with God’s plan and predicated upon and consistent with His “foreknowledge”. This is not to say that certain individuals were chosen first as being special or better than others and predestined accordingly, but rather means that once the plan was set into motion (the creation of all things), that the creation itself and related natural unfolding, sequential events, including the actions taken by individuals pursuant to the exercise of their own free will, would result in various things being done and events unfolding as a result thereof, but because God knows what those things will be in advance of them happening due to His “foreknowledge”, and predestination then being consistent with said “foreknowledge. Predestination then is successive to and in harmony with the “foreknowledge” of God.

Jer 1:5 5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Rom 8 28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

1 Pet 1:2 2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Eph 1 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Your premise is flawed, so reposting it just makes it twice flawed.
If it is flawed, why would it change?

 

[brightfame52]

God's foreknowledge consistent with His predetermination, in that He knows all since He determined all!

 

[brightfame52]

When it comes to God's foreknowledge and His people it denotes His forelove of them and choosing them in Christ!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

since He determined all!

I honestly don't believe that God determines by design what kind of soil a person's heart is capable of being. Some soil, no matter how well you break it up, and seed it, and water it, and fertilize it, just isn't going to bring increase to the word. That's just how that soil is. Just as there is soil that will.

God knows what to do with soil that he knows has the potential to bear fruit when seeded and watered, and he knows what to do with the soil that doesn't have it. Even going so far as to position these soils and their potential, or lack of potential, in history to suit his plan and purpose.

 

[brightfame52]

I honestly don't believe that God determines by design what kind of soil a person's heart is capable of being. Some soil, no matter how well you break it up, and seed it, and water it, and fertilize it, just isn't going to bring increase to the word. That's just how that soil is. Just as there is soil that will.

God knows what to do with soil that he knows has the potential to bear fruit when seeded and watered, and he knows what to do with the soil that doesn't have it. Even going so far as to position these soils and their potential, or lack of potential, in history to suit his plan and purpose.

As you can see we are not in agreement about God

 

[WIP]

This is not a debate forum. Start a new thread on the topic you wish to debate.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

So we know that one of the attributes of God is that he is all-knowing and all-present,
which means that he knows everything past, present, and future.

We're told that we have also been given free will to make our own choices.

However, this would mean that nothing we choose out of our free will would come as a "surprise" to God as if he didn't know that was going to happen. He already knows then what choices we are going to make now and the future.

So this means 1 of 2 things.
Either
A) Everything is already predetermined and predestined by God and he knows all that will happen because he is not limited to time but outside of time which means seeing the past and future is simultaneous for him. There is only one universe/timeline that is going to play out and nothing else that would "surprise" God like a "twist" he didn't see coming.

or

B) God has created an infinite number of timelines/multiverses that exist BASED on every possible choice that every single human being makes in the history of this timeline. In other words, God would still know the outcome of all the infinite other possible timelines based on what choice I make today. So we still have free will to choose which timeline we are going to play out based on the choices I make today, right here, right now. God doesn't actually know which timeline I'm going to play out because it's my free will to choose BUT he does know what the outcome and entire timeline of every possible choice I make. (Follow me on this: So God already knows my entire life and timeline if I choose to disobey him and not live the life He wants for me AND he knows the entire life and timeline if I choose to obey him and follow him wholeheartedly. All the possible outcomes he already knows, but since we have free will, He is allows us to choose which timeline we are actually going to play out and that is the only part He doesn't actually know what I'll choose.

Please comment or correct me.

Since you asked for input I will give it. The fault in your analysis is assuming God knowing means God controlling. If I hold a hammer and let go, I know it will fall. Nevertheless I did not control it falling. God knowing the future is due to Him knowing several facts we don’t. He also knows what today’s choices lead to down the way. Might be a surprise to us but it’s obvious to Him.

Lastly, we do not know how He experiences his abilities. We cannot imagine it. So basing a theology on an ability we don’t understand is foolish. He certainly doesn’t experience time limitations as we do and He certainly isn’t restricted in doing his will because He knows the future.

 

[DJT_47]

Your premise is flawed, so reposting it just makes it twice flawed.
If it is flawed, why would it change?

Really? Your response is flawed too as you've said nothing worthy of saying even once

 

[for_his_glory]

Moving this thread to Theology forum