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Free Will, Predeterminism and Predestination

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Dorothy Mae said:
You discount the strength a stubborn man can have and blame God instead. In this you err.
Click to expand...
You misunderstand what I said.
Man has the freedom to be stubborn. But even that freedom can only be exercised within the boundaries God sets. For example, no king, no matter how stubborn he is of his own accord, can resist the boundaries God sets for the exercise of his stubbornness.

Proverbs 21:1
The king’s heart is a waterway in the hand of the LORD; He directs it where He pleases.
 
Dorothy Mae said:
No evidence he does this (manipulation) and all evidence is He doesn’t.
Click to expand...
I posted the scripture that shows He does control our circumstances, and why he does that.

Acts 17:26-27
26From one man He made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and He determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their lands.

27God intended that they would seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us.

And it is only within these boundaries that we can exercise our freewill.
 
Dorothy Mae said:
Those in the Bible punished for failing to choose the plan were not manipulated by God through circumstances to do so.
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God lets man reject Him. When and where he does that can and will be manipulated by God as he controls the circumstances that provoke that rejection. Suffering, for example, can either reveal you to be for God, or against him. God is in control of the circumstances of suffering to test whether or not a man will reject Him.

Luke 8:13
They believe for a season, but in the time of testing, they fall away.
 
Dorothy Mae said:
That’s the opposite of the parable which plainly states that the poor soil are people with no root in them. Their choice.
Click to expand...
They don't lose their freewill to not receive and retain and produce the fruit of the kingdom.
Pharaoh is an example of how God will harden you in that choice to not retain it. He does that by denying a person His mercy and compassion. Israel is itself an example of this.

John 12:37-40
37Although Jesus had performed so many signs in their presence, they still did not believe in Him. 38This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet:

“Lord, who has believed our message?

And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”g

39For this reason they were unable to believe. For again, Isaiah says:

40“He has blinded their eyes

and hardened their hearts,

so that they cannot see with their eyes,

and understand with their hearts,

and turn,

and I would heal them.”h
 
Jethro Bodine said:
Romans 9:18
18 ...God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden.
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You need to ask WHY He has mercy and WHY He strengthens decisions WE make. There’s a reason. For example: Blessed are the merciful for THEY (and not others) will receive mercy.
Jethro Bodine said:
John 15:16
16You did not choose Me, but I chose you.
Click to expand...
Jesus chose his disciples who became apostles and changed the world. That doesn’t mean He chose us. He also says “one of you is a devil” so does that apply to us too?
 
Jethro Bodine said:
They don't lose their freewill to not receive and retain and produce the fruit of the kingdom.
Click to expand...
Have they lost their free will to receive?
Jethro Bodine said:
Pharaoh is an example of how God will harden you in that choice to not retain it. He does that by denying a person His mercy and compassion. Israel is itself an example of this.
Click to expand...
No, they made choices. Pharaoh is unusual in human history for a purpose God did exactly once.
Jethro Bodine said:
John 12:37-40
37Although Jesus had performed so many signs in their presence, they still did not believe in Him. 38This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet:

“Lord, who has believed our message?

And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”g

39For this reason they were unable to believe. For again, Isaiah says:

40“He has blinded their eyes

and hardened their hearts,

so that they cannot see with their eyes,

and understand with their hearts,

and turn,

and I would heal them.”h
Click to expand...
You make it sound like God inspired scripture then was bound to make it happen. It’s more complex than that. What is more SOME believed.
n2thelight said:
Why do you think I think He's ignorant ?
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If He doesn’t KNOW something, that’s the definition of ignorant. It’s not an insult, it’s a fact. We are all ignorant about many things. No one of us knows everything. That means ignorant.
 
Dorothy Mae said:
Have they lost their free will to receive?
Click to expand...
Depends.
As I've shown, we know that in the case of some Israelites, for example, the answer is, yes, they did lose the capacity to receive. It's clear the parable of the sower makes no attempt to address the issue of freewill, for or against.
 
Dorothy Mae said:
You need to ask WHY He has mercy and WHY He strengthens decisions WE make. There’s a reason.
Click to expand...
Yes, there is a reason.
To serve his purposes he frees or restrains the exercise of our 'free' will. Meanwhile, in our arrogance and our ignorance, we think we have unrestrained free will. We have limited freewill. Sometimes less than at other times. We're like rats in a maze. We can only exercise our free will in the boundaries the maker of the maze has established and allowed us to move around in.
 
Dorothy Mae said:
Jesus chose his disciples who became apostles and changed the world.
Click to expand...
All of God's people are referred to as God's chosen people. It isn't just for some. Everybody who has believed and is saved was chosen on the basis of their faith to become the people and nation of God.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
They don't lose their freewill to not receive and retain and produce the fruit of the kingdom.
Click to expand...
Have they lost their free will to receive?
Jethro Bodine said:
Pharaoh is an example of how God will harden you in that choice to not retain it. He does that by denying a person His mercy and compassion. Israel is itself an example of this.
Click to expand...
No, they made choices. Pharaoh is unusual in human history for a purpose God did exactly once.
Jethro Bodine said:
John 12:37-40
37Although Jesus had performed so many signs in their presence, they still did not believe in Him. 38This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet:

“Lord, who has believed our message?

And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”g

39For this reason they were unable to believe. For again, Isaiah says:

40“He has blinded their eyes

and hardened their hearts,

so that they cannot see with their eyes,

and understand with their hearts,

and turn,

and I would heal them.”h
Click to expand...
You make it sound like God inspired scripture then was bound to make it happen. It’s more complex than that. What is more SOME believed.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
Yes, there is a reason.
To serve his purposes he frees or restrains the exercise of our 'free' will. Meanwhile, in our arrogance and our ignorance, we think we have unrestrained free will. We have limited freewill. Sometimes less than at other times. We're like rats in a maze. We can only exercise our free will in the boundaries the maker of the maze has established and allowed us to move around in.
Click to expand...
He gave us the reason why some receive mercy. There are no boundaries except our choice to have mercy on others or refuse.
 
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