FREE WILL

[Jennie]

I have gotten myself tied up in some knots regarding "free will."
I wonder if anyone has any thoughts that might help me.

Here is what seems to be my problem:
We are all born blind to God. I was born this way, same as everyone else.

So when I hear someone say to another that they have willfully chosen to reject God, it bothers me.

It is like saying....free will is this good thing that we have within our SELVES and we use it to find God. But there is nothing good in us...

I don't THINK I used free will.....
One day, I just suddenly SAW that He WAS.

I guess I am thinking if there is any such thing as free will, it must only come into play AFTER He has cured our blindness...

Any thoughts or verses?

 

[reba]

Welcome to the can of worms you have opened! :waving


Me? I like to fish so I'll grab a worm...

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

 

[Jennie]

A girl who likes to fish....go figure...

So....I get from that verse that it was His plan all along to save us through Christ and that it was His will (what He wanted to do.)

But...when people talk about free will, they aren't talking about GOD'S will. They are talking about MAN'S will. This is what I cannot reconcile. Can a blind man just suddenly see because he makes up his mind he's going to?

I must be missing some understanding somewhere...

 

[Adullam]

A girl who likes to fish....go figure...

So....I get from that verse that it was His plan all along to save us through Christ and that it was His will (what He wanted to do.)

But...when people talk about free will, they aren't talking about GOD'S will. They are talking about MAN'S will. This is what I cannot reconcile. Can a blind man just suddenly see because he makes up his mind he's going to?

I must be missing some understanding somewhere...

John 9:39 And Jesus said, "For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind

 

[reba]

A girl who likes to fish....go figure...

So....I get from that verse that it was His plan all along to save us through Christ and that it was His will (what He wanted to do.)

But...when people talk about free will, they aren't talking about GOD'S will. They are talking about MAN'S will. This is what I cannot reconcile. Can a blind man just suddenly see because he makes up his mind he's going to?

I must be missing some understanding somewhere...

And a dead man does not quicken himself..... This centuries old battle goes on and on....

 

[Sam21]

I have gotten myself tied up in some knots regarding "free will."
I wonder if anyone has any thoughts that might help me.

Here is what seems to be my problem:
We are all born blind to God. I was born this way, same as everyone else.

So when I hear someone say to another that they have willfully chosen to reject God, it bothers me.

It is like saying....free will is this good thing that we have within our SELVES and we use it to find God. But there is nothing good in us...

I don't THINK I used free will.....
One day, I just suddenly SAW that He WAS.

I guess I am thinking if there is any such thing as free will, it must only come into play AFTER He has cured our blindness...

Any thoughts or verses?

I do not think we are born blind to God,actually just the opposite,it seems to me that most little children have some kind of connection to God. My first experience with God that I can remember was when I was four or five years of age. I was standing outside watching the most beautiful sunset when I became aware that someone was over the sunset looking at me and I thought the person must be God,in that instant I realized that I had a choice to move toward God or away from God and I chose to move toward God,when I did some kind of connection was made and I heard myself say in my mind,"why am I here", the Person spoke back to my mind and said,"you do not know now but you will know later". I "knew later"at about the age of 14 when I accepted Christ as my Saviour. God does move toward us,however we have to respond by also moving toward God.

 

[Jennie]

And a dead man does not quicken himself..... This centuries old battle goes on and on....

This is a centuries old battle?
It's not just me?
Other men have tried for centuries to reconcile these two things together so they make sense?

Has anyone writtn a book that you could direct me to where they reconcile them?
Because I can't figure it out...
Thank you Reba.

 

[Jennie]

John 9:39 And Jesus said, "For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind

Hi again Adullam!
I don't understand this verse...
Could you tell me what you think it means?

 

[reba]

This is a centuries old battle?
It's not just me?
Other men have tried for centuries to reconcile these two things together so they make sense?

Has anyone writtn a book that you could direct me to where they reconcile them?
Because I can't figure it out...
Thank you Reba.

Jennie you are funny :yes Yup its in God's Book He did write one ya know.

 

[Jennie]

Jennie you are funny :yes Yup its in God's Book He did write one ya know.

GGrrr...I don't understand what you are saying...God reconciles the two things I am struggling with somewhere in the bible? Could you tell me where to find the verses?

 

[Jennie]

I do not think we are born blind to God,actually just the opposite,it seems to me that most little children have some kind of connection to God. My first experience with God that I can remember was when I was four or five years of age. I was standing outside watching the most beautiful sunset when I became aware that someone was over the sunset looking at me and I thought the person must be God,in that instant I realized that I had a choice to move toward God or away from God and I chose to move toward God,when I did some kind of connection was made and I heard myself say in my mind,"why am I here", the Person spoke back to my mind and said,"you do not know now but you will know later". I "knew later"at about the age of 14 when I accepted Christ as my Saviour. God does move toward us,however we have to respond by also moving toward God.

Hi Sam!
I guess I thought everyone thought as I do that we are born blind. The way I understood the story of Adam and Eve was that they died spiritually and then, because God made everything to bring forth of it's own kind, they could only bring forth the spiritually blnd, dead, deaf, lame, etc.

I have kind of thought that....Jesus DID literally heal these physical infirmities in men but that there was a.....spiritual meaning to be gleaned from them also, like...we ALL are those crippled men.

You don't see it that way?

 

[reba]

Maybe you are serious... I do not believe man has the free will to not answer God's call. Which ever side of the battle we are all His kids....


Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?



Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

 

[Jennie]

Maybe you are serious... I do not believe man has the free will to not answer God's call. Which ever side of the battle we are all His kids....


Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?



Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

I think too, that it is impossible to reject Him once you have seen that He does exist. I don't think I had the free will to choose to see. And I had no free will to reject Him once I DID see.


And but AFTER you have the sight to see He exists, THEN do you think there is such a thing as free will?

And why do you think that men say we have free will to choose to see Him or not? Is it because it is too painful to have to wonder why He gave you your sight but has not given it to some others? And so to alleviate the pain, they have to blame the blind man?

Thank you for trying to help me Reba. I've got some knots. I just recently, like in the last three days, just got sick and tired of just ignoring them.

 

[Christ_empowered]

I'm into Calvinism, so I don't really believe in free will. RC Sproul and a number of other Calvinists have written books dealing with the subject. According to them, it works likes this: you're born into sin. Sin blinds you and while you may appear to have "free will," you actually don't--your "free will" is bound up in your sin nature, so you're really only "free" to drive yourself ever further from God.

If God so chooses, He will act upon you to bring you into good standing with Him. You're still somewhat bound by sin, but as you become more and more like Christ (because God chose you to do so), you get less hampered by sin and more guided by righteousness.

I forget where in the NT it says this, but its something like we are all slaves of what controls us; at one point, we were slaves to sin, but now we're slaves of righteousness. Doesn't say anything about "free will."

 

[Eventide]

IMO if men do not have free will then all sin must be attributed to God.

That's simply spiritual insanity.

 

[Sam21]

This is a centuries old battle?
It's not just me?
Other men have tried for centuries to reconcile these two things together so they make sense?

Has anyone writtn a book that you could direct me to where they reconcile them?
Because I can't figure it out...
Thank you Reba.

I see it as simple,God reaches out to all men but only those who respond are saved. An unsaved person has the knowledge of right and wrong and can make a decision to either chose or to reject God. A saved person has a free will and can chose to obey or disobey God, this forum is full of people claiming to be christian who are believing and following totally different directions,of course some of these people may not actually be children of God. Note,do not let anyone fool you,humans are born with the ability to know right from wrong and humans throughout their lifetime have the option to chose right from wrong. The ultimate RIGHT CHOICE for any human is to accept Jesus as Saviour, and the ultimate WRONG CHOICE for any human is to reject Jesus as Saviour. The second worse choice any human can make is to claim Jesus as Saviour and then reject following the truth.

 

[Jennie]

I'm into Calvinism, so I don't really believe in free will. RC Sproul and a number of other Calvinists have written books dealing with the subject. According to them, it works likes this: you're born into sin. Sin blinds you and while you may appear to have "free will," you actually don't--your "free will" is bound up in your sin nature, so you're really only "free" to drive yourself ever further from God.

If God so chooses, He will act upon you to bring you into good standing with Him. You're still somewhat bound by sin, but as you become more and more like Christ (because God chose you to do so), you get less hampered by sin and more guided by righteousness.

I forget where in the NT it says this, but its something like we are all slaves of what controls us; at one point, we were slaves to sin, but now we're slaves of righteousness. Doesn't say anything about "free will."

It would appear that I agree with your statements here...
And yet, there is someone in here whose threads I have been combing through that they say is a "Calinist" who I appear to not agree with ANYTHING they say....
ery confusing!

 

[Hitch]

I have gotten myself tied up in some knots regarding "free will."
I wonder if anyone has any thoughts that might help me.

Here is what seems to be my problem:
We are all born blind to God. I was born this way, same as everyone else.

So when I hear someone say to another that they have willfully chosen to reject God, it bothers me.

It is like saying....free will is this good thing that we have within our SELVES and we use it to find God. But there is nothing good in us...

I don't THINK I used free will.....
One day, I just suddenly SAW that He WAS.

I guess I am thinking if there is any such thing as free will, it must only come into play AFTER He has cured our blindness...

Any thoughts or verses?

You might find this useful;


Free Will a Slave by Charles Haddon Spurgeon

 

[Adullam]

GGrrr...I don't understand what you are saying...God reconciles the two things I am struggling with somewhere in the bible? Could you tell me where to find the verses?

I don't believe we have a total free will. We have a free will in that we can accept or refuse something.

The saints are made so by the will of God! But they have a say in continuing or not!

The righteous have a say in behaving as they do. But again this is limited to what they see with their eyes!

So we have a limited free will!

We are slaves of something. We are either slaves of sin, or slaves of righteousness. A saint can run away if he wants. Remember Jonah!

The issue is largely within 2 camps, the Calvanist view (no free will) and the Arminian view (it's up to us!)

Neither are always true. It depends on the person and God's will.

So we have a certain amount of free will. Did Paul WANT to be struck blind and fall off his horse! Was this by choice? This seems to support the calvanist position.

Did the disciples have to follow Jesus when He said follow Me? The rich young ruler didn't. So this seems to support the Arminian position.

But ultimately the saints are chosen by God, but have a say afterward if they wish to be faithful.

The righteous decide from the beginning whether they will say yes or no!

Maran atha!

 

[Jennie]

I don't believe we have a total free will. We have a free will in that we can accept or refuse something.

The saints are made so by the will of God! But they have a say in continuing or not!

The righteous have a say in behaving as they do. But again this is limited to what they see with their eyes!

So we have a limited free will!

We are slaves of something. We are either slaves of sin, or slaves of righteousness. A saint can run away if he wants. Remember Jonah!

The issue is largely within 2 camps, the Calvanist view (no free will) and the Arminian view (it's up to us!)

Neither are always true. It depends on the person and God's will.

So we have a certain amount of free will. Did Paul WANT to be struck blind and fall off his horse! Was this by choice? This seems to support the calvanist position.

Did the disciples have to follow Jesus when He said follow Me? The rich young ruler didn't. So this seems to support the Arminian position.

But ultimately the saints are chosen by God, but have a say afterward if they wish to be faithful.

The righteous decide from the beginning whether they will say yes or no!

Maran atha!

Aha! Your second sentence goes to the heart of why I began this thread! I thought I could see that something approaching free will DID exist, but that it wasn't until AFTER we met Him that it came into play...

You would think after almost five years I would understand what these different views are, but I find them confusing so I ran from them in the past and just kept trusting God to show me what the verses mean - and for Holy Spirit to explain the parable to me that the whole bible is.

A few days ago. I realized most of my knots were coming from all of these phrases I had assumed must be true because I heard them so much but that I just didn't understand yet.

Do you know, I see the importance now of Jesus during His time in the desert. It is another parable for us about the danger of taking one verse without the whole counsel!

Could you explain your last sentence here? Not Maranatha - I understand that one,:D but the sentence before it?