FREE WILL

[Eventide]

Eventide,

And here we're back to the question - Does the person who exercises the freedom to choose it have any more inherent wisdom/goodness/ability in him than the person who exercises the freedom to reject it?

As Arnold would say... "They're all bad".. there are none good if that's what you're getting at. The scriptures do tell us why some people walk away from the LORD.. for example the rich young ruler.. did he walk away because he was totally depraved and couldn't understand a single word which the LORD said to Him or was it because he was rich and knew exactly what the LORD had asked of him ?

I am genuinely asking this because I am not sure - has this part been mentioned in the first 5 books of the Bible? And if not, the question still stands. why did God say this -
Lev 18:5 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD.
...if none can keep them?

And I already told you.. if you don't believe the scriptures then I'm sorry.. Paul tells us that the LAW is holy, just, and good.. now WHO does that remind you of.. The LORD of course.. and Paul tells us that it was our teacher to bring us to Christ..

 

[ivdavid]

Eventide,

if you don't believe the scriptures then I'm sorry.. Paul tells us that the LAW is holy, just, and good.. now WHO does that remind you of.. The LORD of course.. and Paul tells us that it was our teacher to bring us to Christ..

I do attest to all that you've stated here. Perhaps I should have added the disclaimer I had added to fds' post -
[I do not ask this in a skeptical manner - I ask it only as a response to the claim that God cannot command man to do something he is not yet able to do]
My question is simple - In Lev 18:5, God describes the righteousness of the law and sets it before man. In the NT, Paul states that no man will be made righteous by the law. We now know the purpose of the law - but was this purpose revealed in the first 5 books of Scripture. If not, then hasn't God commanded Israel to do what is not in their capacity to do? (Of course, it is to the end that all may be concluded under disobedience so that it is God who will have mercy upon His people by Jesus Christ through faith.)

The scriptures do tell us why some people walk away from the LORD..

Yes, they do. But they also tell us what enables some to walk towards Him. And that is what I'm asking - what enables one to choose to obey the Gospel? I know that if I asked the question - what enables one to reject the Gospel - it is because they love darkness[John 3:19]. But I'm asking what enables one to obey the Gospel - is it because this person has more wisdom/goodness/ability than the one who rejected it?

Well, I've read most of your posts on the thread 'Christ in you' - and I'd agree thus far. You made crucial points with John 3:6 and Gal 5:17 - that of flesh is flesh; that of Spirit is spirit and these 2 are contrary to and against each other. Given all this, I find it perplexing that you'd attribute the work of obeying the Gospel to the flesh. If it's attributed to the Spirit, then it is a work of God and not ours - if not, then our flesh is all we've got before being born of the Spirit. Help me understand how you reconcile this conflict.

 

[Eventide]

Given all this, I find it perplexing that you'd attribute the work of obeying the Gospel to the flesh. If it's attributed to the Spirit, then it is a work of God and not ours - if not, then our flesh is all we've got before being born of the Spirit. Help me understand how you reconcile this conflict.

Obeying the gospel isn't only the working of the flesh.. the Spirit of God convicts (convinces) of sin and righteousness and judgment.. and the word of God itself is spiritual and it's the truth which can set us free from the lies and deception of the rulers of this present evil world. He's that true light which lighteth every man that comes into the world.

I find it perplexing that so many people are led to believe that man is totally depraved and unable to hear or understand the simple message of the gospel.. that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures.. but this is what happens when the doctrines of men trump the word of God.

 

[childeye]

And I know perfectly well that man did not make that judgment.. God did.. God is also the one who later numbered mans days to 120 years.. not man..

Now you say God made the judgment for man to eat of the tree of knowledge???
Assuming you are not implying that, what other option is there for me to understand what you believe? If death entered in through the eating of the fruit just as God said, how is it that God sentenced man to death when in fact Adam is already dead by eating of the tree?
There remains no logical answer unless you are meaning that God could have gone back on His Word or He was lying in the first place.

All lies at the end of reasoning end in hypocrisy. Since your reasoning ends in hypocrisy, it must be founded on what is not true.

 

[childeye]

I know.. how ridiculous would that be if we didn't have the ability in the first place. 'Repent and believe the gospel'.. oh right, you can't..

They believe that Satan's lie is too strong and the gospel is powerless... unless of course that God allows these certain people to believe it.. as usual it all comes down to election and they believe that they're it.. the elect.

Who said the Gospel is powerless? It's not powerless to me? I believe the Gospel. The word elect is in scripture as in those God foreknew. The elect therefore believe the Gospel. Am I wrong here? Yet you must by default be claiming you are not the elect since you demean anyone who thinks they are. So according to your words, you do not believe you are elect of God, you do not believe you are one God foreknew, so you don't believe the Gospel?

All lies at the end of reasoning end in hypocrisy. Since your reasoning ends in hypocrisy, it must be founded on what is not true.

 

[childeye]

=Eventide;552119]I don't think it's difficult to understand, and he's obviously made himself very clear in many ways.. AND as mentioned, I don't actually get what he means by 'byword' as if that's the totality of a person dying in their sin and rejecting the truth.

It's called freedom to choose it or reject it.. God isn't forcing the gospel upon anyone.

I never said God is forcing the Gospel on anyone. You are mistaken in what I believe. What I"m saying is God designed the Gospel to make the seeing blind and the blind seeing, to make the mountains into valleys and the valleys into mountains. God reveals the Christ. And Jesus said, who do you say I am? and Simon answered, you are the Christ, the son of the living God. And Jesus said, flesh and blood has not revealed this to you but only my Father in heaven.

Isaiah 53

1 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

 

[Former Christian]

Smaller

Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

Since I have a choice, I choose not to answer today.

FC

 

[smaller]

Smaller

Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

Since I have a choice, I choose not to answer today.

FC

Yeah, and those who do not heed you are not of you either.

Point being few believers fess up to the will of Satan in them in association with their SINS.

I don't expect an honest answer from many, and could predict your response in a large number of people .... because .... it's the same bad actor.

enjoy!

s

 

[childeye]

Childeye

Originally Posted by Former Christian

Childeye

I believe that everyone from Adam on down is responsible for their own thinking and their own actions. And in order for that to be true, we must have the freedom to choose what to think and do. And to me that’s free will.

Are you telling me that the Bible teaches something other than that?

FC



“Yes exactly. The New Testament teaches opposite of that.”

Wow! I am in agreement with Jasoncran that believing that we have free will is just plain common sense. And like my daddy used to say, “If he aint got common sense, he aint got no sense at all”. If I agreed with you, I would believe in the bible about as much as I believe in Christianity. I for one am glad I don’t agree with you.

Glad to see you commited to something. Now let's take a look at what you commited to. You say people are responsible for their thoughts as in they control them. Then you say your Daddy, God bless him, said "If he aint got common sense, he aint got no sense at all". Now how can someone who has no sense be responsible for being senseless? You would hold all ignorant people responsible for their ignorance? I won't hold you responsible for yours because I don't hold people responsible for their thoughts. I give credit to God that men have any Godly thoughts at all and therefore do not believe men conjure Godliness at their discretion. Glory be to God and His Word in our hearts which without we have no light in us. I believe in God is all I've said here.

All lies at the end of reasoning end in hypocrisy, I've revealed your hypocrisy therefore what you are believing in is not true. Are you now too proud to admit it? that would be Satan causing you to deny the Truth. If you believe the Truth however your will will be free.

Paul acted in ignorance(Ac 9:6, 1Tim 1:13) and was chosen by Christ for a special purpose (Ac 9:15).

Enemy of the gospel? I repeat. Wow!

Now you contradict yourself again and imply Paul could not be responsible for his thoughts because he was ignorant which is what I said. And yes before he was the Apostle Paul he was Saul a persecutor of Christ and an enemy of the Gospel. His thoughts as Saul were that he was serving God by killing the enemies of God but he was deceived. That is the Truth, why deride me for saying it?

“Free from what?”

Not free from what, free to think or do what.

“Believing in the Christ destroys this foundation since who wouldn't trust someone who suffered and died for you? Who would seek freedom from such a God?”

Richard Dawkins, for one.

You are describing thinking as free yet you agreed that Satan proposed disobedience to God which forced Eve to consider and in the end of events from there altered men's thoughts through the knowledge of good and evil. You are describing a will not necessarily a free one. Richard Dawkins Hates a God he doesn't even believe in. Hypocrisy.
FC[/QUOTE]

 

[childeye]

I agree we are lost. I contend that we are lost because of our free will. We are not puppets or robots. We chose to turn our back on God. We were not created lost but chose to be lost. Now we need to exercise our free will to choose the path of righteousness and God is calling.

I think we are lost because in the darkness one cannot see. Such a soul is not free in my interpretation so I do believe we are arguing semantics. We need the light of Truth and then we are free because we are no longer blind. The Truth will set you free Jesus said and I am using his terms. Robots? Jars of clay in the hands of the potter? The axe should not boast against the hand that wields it. We are not androids, I know this. We are vessels of Spirit but we must learn what treasure that God in us is and that is what we are learning. We are all subject to knowledge and ignorance of Truth of God.

 

[ivdavid]

Eventide,

Obeying the gospel isn't only the working of the flesh..

And that's where I find your conflict. You do claim that there is the Spirit's working and that is true - but you are allowing for a 'little' work of the flesh too in being regenerated and becoming a believer. And yet you believe that the flesh profits nothing and that it is contrary to the Spirit. How then is this 'co-working' possible between the flesh and the Spirit here alone? How is the flesh able to obey what is spiritual when they are contrary to each other?

I find it perplexing that so many people are led to believe that man is totally depraved and unable to hear or understand the simple message of the gospel.. that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures..

Total depravity is not dissimilar to spiritual blindness. And since everything that is not of the Spirit is sin, and we are only flesh before we are born of the Spirit - we call it total depravity.
Consider this -
Luk 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.
Are you telling me that they actually did not know what they were doing? Did they not hear Him preach in the synagogues in broad daylight? Did they not test Him with their questions of false sincerity? Were they not aware of Jesus' claim that He was the Son of God and that He had come for the remission of sins? Then what does Jesus pray about them not knowing?
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
And to discern spiritually, we must be born of the Spirit first.

What again is the purpose of regeneration?
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
What was this stony heart and corrupted spirit of ours capable of doing except stonewall God's spiritual Word?

Also, with regards to the Gospel, I am living testimony to the paradoxical fact that I have always believed that Jesus died for our sins and that He is the Son of God but have never believed in Jesus until being regenerated by God. They are not the same - I'd like to discuss the differences if you too are willing.

 

[Eventide]

Eventide,

And that's where I find your conflict. You do claim that there is the Spirit's working and that is true - but you are allowing for a 'little' work of the flesh too in being regenerated and becoming a believer. And yet you believe that the flesh profits nothing and that it is contrary to the Spirit. How then is this 'co-working' possible between the flesh and the Spirit here alone? How is the flesh able to obey what is spiritual when they are contrary to each other?

There's absolutely nothing in the scriptures which teaches that we are regenerated before we believe.. if you'd like to show me where this is the case then I'd glady change my mind on it..

Here's a perfect summary of the process given by the Apostle Paul..

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise..

Now look carefully at the sequence of events.. there was trust in Christ AFTER hearing the gospel.. and then it plainly says that AFTER ye believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise..

Why would I change that around and say that God sealed me with the Holy Spirit and then I believed..? Why would YOU do that ?

Also, look at Romans 4 with respect to Abraham..

What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

FAITH !

Then look at the sequence of the events in this chapter..

..for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised..

Do you see this.. Abraham received the sign of circumcision, which is God's SEAL for the righteousness of FAITH, faith that he had BEFORE he was circumcised..

Again, there's nothing (AT ALL) in the scriptures which teaches that we must be regenerated before we believe.. the scriptures teach exactly the opposite.. but when some guy says that you must be regenerated first.. then that settles it for YOU.. why in the world that be the case I don't know.. it makes no sense to me.

Total depravity is not dissimilar to spiritual blindness. And since everything that is not of the Spirit is sin, and we are only flesh before we are born of the Spirit - we call it total depravity.

Another term completely foreign to the scriptures.. but again, since some guy said it was true, then it must be right ?

Consider this -
Luk 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.
Are you telling me that they actually did not know what they were doing? Did they not hear Him preach in the synagogues in broad daylight? Did they not test Him with their questions of false sincerity? Were they not aware of Jesus' claim that He was the Son of God and that He had come for the remission of sins? Then what does Jesus pray about them not knowing?

Not knowing that they were in fact crucifying the Son of God.. absolutely.. this is within the context of those who were crucifying Him.. and I can't elaborate on what's not there.. but at the end of the scence there was a Centurian who was convinced that He WAS the Son of God..

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

This verse has to do with the DEEP THINGS of God.. just read it.. it doesn't teach anywhere that men can't understand the simple message of the gospel.. AND as I asked before.. do you actually believe that the rich young ruler walked away because he was totally depraved and didn't understand what Jesus had asked of him, or was it because he knew exactly what Jesus had asked..

Seriously.. what's your answer to that.. are you going to tell me that he didn't understand a single word which the LORD said to him..?

And to discern spiritually, we must be born of the Spirit first.

The DEEP THINGS of God.. absolutely.. this is why we can entire denominations within Christendom claiming that they are the one true church.. because there's no spiritual understanding of what the church of God actually is..

What again is the purpose of regeneration?
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
What was this stony heart and corrupted spirit of ours capable of doing except stonewall God's spiritual Word?

The gospel is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believes IT.. You actually believe that it's powerless unless God allows a person to believe it... because you've been taught over and over that people can't comprehend or understand that Christ died for our sins unless God says so..

Also, with regards to the Gospel, I am living testimony to the paradoxical fact that I have always believed that Jesus died for our sins and that He is the Son of God but have never believed in Jesus until being regenerated by God. They are not the same - I'd like to discuss the differences if you too are willing.

I have a similar testimony.. raised RCC although I don't think that I ever believed that Jesus died for me.. maybe I was too young.. although it wasn't until much later in life that I read the scriptures and was born again.. just like Paul says.. that it was after I heard the word of truth and after I did believe that God sealed me with the Holy Spirit.

 

[Eventide]

Here's another one for you idavid..

This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

How in the world can regeneration (the Spirit) come BEFORE faith when Paul is saying point blank that it is received by the hearing of faith..?

 

[ivdavid]

Eventide,

There's absolutely nothing in the scriptures which teaches that we are regenerated before we believe..

You seem to assume that regeneration is limited to the sealing of the Holy Spirit. It actually encompasses an entire process beginning with giving you a new heart and a renewed spirit and ending with the sealing of the Holy Spirit. Even if you will not concede that it begins with this - you surely have to admit that we have our stony heart and corrupt spirit regenerated into a heart of flesh and a renewed spirit. Tell me what you think the capacity of the old nature is and tell me why the new nature is required. Do you imagine the old heart of stone to be old but not hardened in that it can accept God's word but only feebly or do you see it as a hardened heart which will not pay heed to God's Word?

Eph 1:13 - In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise..

As I said, regeneration is not limited to the sealing of the Holy Spirit. And sealing is not introduction rather the conclusion of the work of the Holy Spirit - the conclusion of what He began much earlier. Imagine you're wrapping an object with a beautiful covering - you first place the object on the covering, then you fold the ends of the covering round the object, get them to cover the object completely and then you seal it. Was not the object in contact with the precious covering much before it was sealed?

Another term[total depravity] completely foreign to the scriptures.. but again, since some guy said it was true, then it must be right ?

Is this fair reasoning? By this standard, I must not believe in the Holy Trinity. Besides, you have not engaged the argument - so i'll repeat it here in a manner that's easy for you to answer - assuming you want to -
1. Everything that is not of the Spirit is sin. True/False?
2. We are only flesh before we are born of the Spirit. True/False?

Not knowing that they were in fact crucifying the Son of God.. absolutely..

Joh 19:7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.
The question still stands - did they not understand Jesus' words? Do not answer this necessarily for my sake but consider this for your own consistency. And your answer to this will answer your other question here and all other similar questions -
"Seriously.. what's your answer to that.. are you going to tell me that he[the rich young ruler] didn't understand a single word which the LORD said to him..? "

Eventide - "This verse[1Cor 2:14] has to do with the DEEP THINGS of God.."
Why would you limit ALL things[v.10] to only Deep Things - the Deep Things are a subset of ALL things.


I raised Lev 18:5 only to show that God can indeed command what man is not yet able to do - in order to serve His own glorious purposes. Knowing this should help in resolving a lot of your other conflicts.

...because you've been taught over and over that people can't comprehend or understand that Christ died for our sins unless God says so..

I can see what you're doing and it's not very nice. You are trying to discredit the belief by assuming that only one man was the cause of this belief and that that one man was very wrong. Now you are not considering the case that this belief could have been arrived at by people without even coming in contact with this guy's views. So now you cannot rubbish away this belief based on that one man - you'll have to engage the experiences of all these people who arrived at such a belief apart from that man or his influence through any of his followers.
It's easy to rubbish the dogma of a particular group - it's another thing to rubbish each and every independent testimony.

Right, coming to your point - I reiterate that believing in Christ is not the same as believing that He died for our sins. If you agree, tell me what you think the difference is. If you don't, we'll discuss that next.

How in the world can regeneration (the Spirit) come BEFORE faith when Paul is saying point blank that it is received by the hearing of faith..?

As I said, regeneration is not limited to only receiving possession of the Holy Spirit - it encompasses all the working of the Holy Spirit - right from giving us a new heart, renewing our spirit, convicting us of sin, leading us to the hope in Christ through faith, imputing righteousness to us by justification through faith, granting us repentance by revealing the grace, mercy and compassion of God in forgiving us, granting us the adoption of sons - to the assurance of freedom through sanctification by His beginning to dwell within us.

Let's also consider the meaning of this verse -
The hearing of faith refers to this -
Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
And faith itself is a gift of God [Eph 2:8],
So we conclude that the hearing of faith is not something we do, rather something that is done in us by God.
In that sense, Paul is asking whether you received God's Spirit on the basis of what you did or on the basis of what God did?
Why must the flesh boast in doing something - anything - in this salvation work of God? Again consider, How is the flesh able to obey what is spiritual when they are contrary to each other?

 

[ivdavid]

FC - "There are actually certain things that we can be certain of."
This reconciles my conflict.

FC - "And experience is subjective so that to say that its certainty is grounds for authoritative certainty is unwarranted."
I was not concerned with how our certainty could be authoritatively imposed on other people when I was discussing this. Just on whether we could be certain ourselves.

ivdavid - “I believe Paul,Peter made authoritative statements in the sense, they stated truth with absolute certainty.â€
I think you misunderstood me here. I agree to the model of shepherding. I only wanted to know if the elders/ordained shepherds sharing - not imposing - their own absolute certainties(as used in the first point in this post) was also a point of contention for you.

FC - "...but the fact is not changed by the explanation as it is by the practice of interpretation."
What do you mean by fact here - something like Paris is in France, Earth revolves around the sun, genes replicate etc.
Would "we are no longer under the law" qualify as fact? You can simply answer yes/no. (I'm not discussing law,grace here....i'm trying to completely understand what you mean by interpretation)


FC - "I think we understand 'trespasses and sins' alike, but we may have a different understanding of the observation."
I did think we each had good in us because I thought I had good in me until God showed me during my conversion that I had never once kept the intent of the Law expressed in one of its own commandments - to love God. Since I had never loved God in any of my acts/works before regeneration, I have always transgressed the law in every single act of mine - thereby having committed sin all along. The gravity of this truth burdened me with so great a guilt and feeling of helplessness that Christ on the cross seemed so much sweeter as an unshakable rock of hope. His love for me - who have been nothing but His enemy all along - is what enabled me to begin to love.
So now I know that one who is not regenerated cannot obey God - is unable to seek God and love Him as He ought to be loved - and therein such a one transgresses the law continually.


I'm not yet fully conversant with your understanding of the "soulish". We both agree that everything by the flesh is sin and everything by the Spirit is good. Your introducing a third neutral 'good' area seems to give room for self-righteousness(not necessarily justification by it). I'll comment on it to the extent that I have seen no text from the Bible yet that lends itself to "walking by the soul". Col 3:23 implies that what we do must "proceed out of our soul". And this is the only usage of its kind. But what proceeds out of the soul need not be 'by the soul' - as in, I believe the soul to receive what is by the flesh or by the Spirit and the works proceed out of the soul. I find this plausible because the soulish is referred to in the positive sense(Col 3:23) and the negative sense(1Cor 2:14, Jud 1:19). I can only see it as a kind of subset within the context of flesh or the spirit.
In more practical terms, I consider the soul to be my consciousness. When I am conscious of a desire, that thought is present within my soul. My mind then processes a counsel as to whether I act on the desire or not. The counsel is again present within my soul and is executed out of the soul. This is oversimplifying it but you get the idea. Now where that initial desire comes from - and how exactly the counsel is prepared - I think is by the flesh or by the Spirit.

 

[childeye]

Here's another one for you idavid..

This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

How in the world can regeneration (the Spirit) come BEFORE faith when Paul is saying point blank that it is received by the hearing of faith..?

Paul said from faith to faith not by decision as in free choice. Regenerate what? something that was already there able to be regenerated or quickened. What?The Word of God in a believers heart which makes a man able to believe.

 

[childeye]

Jennie, I don't know if you really got your question answered here. As you can see there are a couple of different thoughts on the subject of free will. Ultimately the scripture teaches that we are lost souls in need of a saviour. We can do nothing to earn salvation. We are condemned to hell because of our sinful nature and the only way out is Jesus Christ. The bible teaches we are born into sin, our hearts are wicked and we are not good. People can do good things, but people cannot BE good or righteous. That is why we need a saviour. Once we become a believer, we now have the nature of Christ within us which frees us from being a slave to sin. That is really where our free will comes in. Before Christ we are slaves to sin, after Christ we are free from sin. Do to HIS grace and HIS nature within us. Truely at that point we gain free will, for we then make choices to sin or not to sin. Even after accepting Christ we wrestle with our flesh and battle the temptations of life and indeed can chose to commit a sin. However, as a believer we are no longer LIVING in sin. We may sin now and then, but we do not have to live a life of sin. We are free from that. When a believer sins he/she is making a choice to sin. I hope this helps a little.

I like this response. I would only add that the battle with the flesh will be won as the person becomes more solidified in the Truth of Who and how God is. Or in other words, more sure in their conviction that God is the Love within and His voice becomes more and more while Satan's becomes less and less.

 

[Eventide]

You seem to assume that regeneration is limited to the sealing of the Holy Spirit. It actually encompasses an entire process beginning with giving you a new heart and a renewed spirit and ending with the sealing of the Holy Spirit.

Since you obviously have a much different view of regeneration, why don't you outline the process of regeneration here.. and show me the scriptures which you use to prove it.

I'll stick with the word of God which clearly teaches that we trust in Christ after hearing the gospel, and that after we believe it we are sealed (by God) with the Holy Spirit of promise. If you'd like to continue believing that God had to allow you to repent and believe (while keeping this from others) then go right ahead.

 

[ivdavid]

Eventide - " why don't you outline the process of regeneration here.."
I did that in my last post....towards the end.

Eventide - "and show me the scriptures which you use to prove it. "
If I have written anything that is not the work of the Holy Spirit there, I shall retract it. As to the sequence, I have put forth many questions based on Scripture, to that end, - which I wish you are considering and not ignoring.

Eventide - ".... the word of God which clearly teaches that we trust in Christ...."
Is it "we-by-the-flesh" or "we-by-the-Spirit"?
Also, I repeat the following only because it is important -
Believing in Christ is not the same as believing that He died for our sins. If you agree, tell me what you think the difference is. If you don't, we'll discuss that next.

 

[jasoncran]

eventide as much as disagree with eternal security and the five points for the most part. as much as you are agaisnt calvin, why do you accept perseverance of the saints yet dont buy limited free will and perservance of the saints implies the other points must be true. do you see the conudrum. i am not trying to derail this thread but if one can choose to come to christ, and be forgiven , yet if he does that sincerly and serves a while yet he is now secure and not allowed to walk away? if God sees that he strays he merely moves the mountains to make it hell for him and yet if he doesnt repent he drags him to heaven before he dies?

while i do believe that God will try to reach the sinner and also the wayward christian he doesnt force either to repent.