FREE WILL

[Eventide]

Loving our neighbors as ourselves is off topic matter here.

Well then for the sake of conversation are you a universalist ?

 

[smaller]

So correct me if I'm wrong.. although the summary of what you seem to believe is that the gospel itself is powerless against the lies of Satan unless God allows a person to hear it.. ?

Is that close to what your argument is here ?

No, I believe every person loves or has loved in some way. In this they can not possibly be totally depraved. Love is not a 'bad' working.

As to the Gospel, no, they cannot hear unless God allows, in particular the questions I posed in the post I asked you to address.

Saul was a blindman who made 'no choice' as to his encounter on the road to Damascus. Saul was not 'seeking' or 'asking' whatsoever until the 'scales' [significant to some viewers] were removed from his eyes.

THEN Paul saw the message of the Gospel and his call and election, no choice of his, but of God in Christ:

Acts 26:18
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Saul was in darkness, blinded, by the 'god of this world' as ALL unbelievers ARE.

God in Christ Himself came to him and cured that blindness, turned him, gave him a NEW name, not a 'slave' of darkness name. Not a blind mans name.

All of that was by no means of Saul. Were God to strike any of us blind, one could certainly claim their will was involved, but the 'chances' of being turned would go up SIGNIFICANTLY were that to transpire with any of us. So what do we say then? That Saul made a choice, or that God Himself intervened to MAKE him see?

There is no question that apart from that and left to his own blinded darkness from the POWER OF SATAN that Saul would have remained a BLINDMAN SLAVE of same the balance of his lifetime, and as clearly evidenced by his wicked works as a SLAVE of the DEVIL. And he didn't have a CLUE that he was that.

s

 

[childeye]

How so.. there was a crime comitted according to the law and a judge sentenced the person accordingly.. how is that vanity ?




I agree completely, although that's the point.. is your argument that I had absolutely no choice in the matter because I didn't embrace the love of the truth at this point in my life ?

It is vanity since there is no eternal impetus. Semantics again!! Do you mean choice as in options or choice as in decision? Nonetheless I will answer. Love is a feeling that moves people, it is not a mental deliberation. One does not cry by freedom of action. Still one can run from love because they are afraid of what it will cost them. This is fear, another feeling. One of forboding that moves people and is the enemy of Love. The Truth will vanquish such a fear by reason that it will cost you more to run away.

 

[smaller]

Well then for the sake of conversation are you a universalist ?

I believe that all workers of iniquity, all vessels of dishonor will find themselves in the Lake of Fire forever and ever...and that means EVER as in 'eternally.'

As to the identities of these, I leave that to your own logical conclusion if you can find one.

s

 

[childeye]

I do wish that all men will be saved although I don't see this being the case in the scriptures..

What's your opinion.. do you actually believe that all men will be saved because ultimately sin is not their fault ?

My view is that there may exist people that wantonly and knowingly commit suicide by defying God. I cannot fathom why they would hate God so after looking upon the Christ. Perhaps just to prove they are free albeit dead. I certainly wouldn't call that person a free will but one who was already dead. Can I simultaneously hope all men are saved and yet believe they all won't be? I know what scripture says, the mark of the beast and all that. So I do think there will be vessels in which God takes out the trash is how I would put it.

 

[Eventide]

It is vanity since there is no eternal impetus..

So in the case of one dying IN their sin.. there's no eternal impetus there ?

 

[Eventide]

I believe that all workers of iniquity, all vessels of dishonor will find themselves in the Lake of Fire forever and ever...and that means EVER as in 'eternally.'

As to the identities of these, I leave that to your own logical conclusion if you can find one.

s

IMO we are all vessels of dishonor with respect to our FLESH.. and it profits nothing.. it remains condemned even after we're saved.. this is why Paul can write that there is now no condemnation to those who are IN CHRIST JESUS, who walk NOT after the FLESH but after the SPIRIT.

I think that this is another area where ELECTION gets all blown out of proportion.. as if there are specific people who are vessels of honor versus vessels fit for destruction.. in our FLESH we are all vessles fit for destruction.

 

[childeye]

So in the case of one dying IN their sin.. there's no eternal impetus there ?

As a byword perhaps.

 

[Eventide]

As a byword perhaps.

Please elaborate more on this if you would..

 

[childeye]

Please elaborate more on this if you would..

Boring, but as you wish. Look son what happens when you distrust God you turn out like that guy, a byword.

 

[Eventide]

Boring, but as you wish. Look son what happens when you distrust God you turn out like that guy, a byword.

I'm asking a simple question.. do you believe that there are eternal ramifications for a person dying in their sin and rejecting the love of the truth.. or do you believe that it won't matter because it's not ultimately their fault..?

To me that's not boring at all.. just a serious question.

 

[smaller]

IMO we are all vessels of dishonor with respect to our FLESH.. and it profits nothing.. it remains condemned even after we're saved.. this is why Paul can write that there is now no condemnation to those who are IN CHRIST JESUS, who walk NOT after the FLESH but after the SPIRIT.

The flesh itself is subject to 'lust' which is an anti-spiritual working provoked by the Law. See Romans 7 on how that works and in addition:

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh-

If one reads the balance the wrestling match and 'whom' it is with is abundantly clear.

I think that this is another area where ELECTION gets all blown out of proportion.. as if there are specific people who are vessels of honor versus vessels fit for destruction.. in our FLESH we are all vessles fit for destruction.

The body [of flesh] dies because of the presence of sin therein, which is again, linked to the devil.

Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin

We are to account it that way until it actually happens. Why?

Romans 6:7
because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

We are advised not to let sin reign in our mortal body, meaning, it is undoubtedly there to reign.

Romans 6:12
Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.

Paul carried that evil desire of sin in his body all the days of his mortal life:

Romans 7:21
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Paul termed the sin in his body inclusive of his mind, NO LONGER I.

If it was not Paul, then who or what was it of? See 1 John 3:8 for the obvious answer.

enjoy!

s

 

[childeye]

I'm asking a simple question.. do you believe that there are eternal ramifications for a person dying in their sin and rejecting the love of the truth.. or do you believe that it won't matter because it's not ultimately their fault..?

To me that's not boring at all.. just a serious question.

Okay, you want to get me to conclude for you definitively that men are not at fault and deal with all the semantics involved so I don't appear to contradict myself. As I've said before the fault is that we find fault. So I don't think men are not at fault if they find fault. Consequently God is the Image or absolute by which we reason morally and we become the reflection of that image. To the pure of heart all is pure but to the unpure of heart nothing is pure. How do you expose a lie masquerading as the Truth? At the end of reasoning it ends in hypocrisy. Now if you can understand that, tell me which fault your question is pertaining to. Is it their fault they find fault? Semantics Eventide. Are you saying fault as in blame or fault as in imperfection? If you saw God and He wasn't beautiful, is it God or you that is the problem? Yes there are always ramifications that are eternal regarding information, hence byword. All things matter in some respect regardless of fault including fault whichever way you mean it.

I think I should say that I am aware of the motivation of the fear of hell and aware of the motivation of wanting to be with God forever because of Who He is. They are not the same and freewill is more a belief for those afraid of hell. God does not whip you till you say you love Him and then whip you more because you were lying.

 

[Eventide]

Okay, you want to get me to conclude for you definitively that men are not at fault and deal with all the semantics involved so I don't appear to contradict myself. As I've said before the fault is that we find fault.

I would have to disagree because it is God who sentenced man to death for disobedience.. not us.. ie, it wasn't because we found fault but rather for disobedience.. do you agree with this ?

So I don't think men are not at fault if they find fault. Consequently God is the Image or absolute by which we reason morally and we become the reflection of that image. To the pure of heart all is pure but to the unpure of heart nothing is pure. How do you expose a lie masquerading as the Truth. At the end of reasoning it ends in hypocrisy. Now if you can understand that, tell me which fault your question is pertaining to. Is it their fault they find fault? Semantics Eventide. Are you saying fault as in blame or fault as in imperfection? If you saw God and He wasn't beautiful, is it God or you that is the problem? Yes there are always ramifications that are eternal regarding information, hence byword. All things matter in some respect regardless of fault including fault whichever way you mean it.

I still don't understand what you mean by 'byword'.. you're telling me that God condemining man for dying in sin is nothing more than a byword ? That there will not be eternal consequences as mentioned in the scriptures.. like everlasting shame and contempt ?

 

[childeye]

I would have to disagree because it is God who sentenced man to death for disobedience.. not us.. ie, it wasn't because we found fault but rather for disobedience.. do you agree with this ?

Man sentenced man to death when Adam ate of the fruit which God said not to eat. God did not do this. God provided a covering for our nakedness. This is why I would not say that God condemned all men to death because there were men such as Enoch who never tasted death.

I still don't understand what you mean by 'byword'.. you're telling me that God condemning man for dying in sin is nothing more than a byword ? That there will not be eternal consequences as mentioned in the scriptures.. like everlasting shame and contempt ?

[/QUOTE]
A byword, an after thought looking back as from heaven, and gleaming knowledge or information from the experience. This would include eternal damnation.

 

[Eventide]

Man sentenced man to death when Adam ate of the fruit which God said not to eat. God did not do this.

WOW, never heard this before.. Man sentenced himself to death...?

 

[childeye]

WOW, never heard this before.. Man sentenced himself to death...?

Now don't act surprised. You know perfectly well God said not to eat of the fruit or you would die. That is because the affects of the spiritual knowledge on mankind were poison to his soul being that he was made of flesh. God was trying to protect Adam from harm. Don't tell me you don't know there were affects from the knowledge of good and evil? They saw they were naked. As I said, they found fault where they didn't find fault before. They hid, even from God their maker. God made a covering for them by killing an animal, a type for the Christ, the lamb of God whose blood is a covering for man's sins. Man sentenced man to death by not believing God and what God said would happen came true.

 

[jasoncran]

she is using a saying that is common today. he sent himself to jail by commiting that crime. that is all she said. men send themselves to hell all the time.

 

[childeye]

she is using a saying that is common today. he sent himself to jail by commiting that crime. that is all she said. men send themselves to hell all the time.

I'm not a she.

 

[WIP]

Allow me to ask another question..

Since the basic argument is that all sin is derived from Satan (which I would agree with btw).. do you believe that all men will be saved (universalism) since it's not ultimately their fault ?

This is where I believe free will comes into play. If we didn't have the freedom of will then why does God have to tell us to repent? We make the choice to resist sin and turn away from it.