Quote==childeye---
You say choice is an act of will. If that is true then we would be able to accomplish that which we will to choose. The Old and New Testament has proven this untrue as we have merited death though we would choose life. We cannot will to be good and accomplish it of ourselves without God's Holy Spirit. The statement that it would be wrong to excuse men by saying the devil made them do it, is in error therefore, as that is exactly what Jesus uses to intercede on our behalf and the very reason why he died in our stead as a payment for sin, to silence Satan's hypocritical accusations.
Respectfully, you need to study scripture and temper your understanding. Please note that Jesus knew what people believed. Therefore before they ever decided anything, he already knew which way they would decide. The issue is character. We become what we believe in, and choose accordingly. This is backed up by scientific experiments on the brain pertaining to freewill that have proven the same.
If you believe Satan, that men are responsible, you unknowingly call Jesus a liar who said forgive them they know not what they do. Moreover this is the truth that God desires all men to come into the knowledge of. If we would excuse we would be excused. Hence Jesus taught us to pray forgive me my tresspasses even as I forgive those who tresspass against me. This is the only way men can be presented Holy and blameless. You are teaching the Old Testament not the New and this is not the Gospel.
If we think it is wrong to blame Satan, we will reap the same judgment we are casting. For scripture definatively identifies Satan the Father of all lies and we all have been deceived to some degree. Satan's first lie was you could disobey God and live and this is what most consider a freewill, the ability to deny God. If it was not Satan's subtle deception that is to blame, we would blame Adam for wanton betrayal rather than being ignorant. And we ourselves are all guilty of being deceived but not wanton treason. We and Adam are guilty of ignorance and so does the bible agree. My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Grubal, we have a will but knowledge of God sets it free.
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______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________Grubals reply---
First of all, As a human being we've been created with the ability to trust in something or many things.
Trust is not freewill or mental deliberation. Trust is faith and faith in God is about Character. Therefore trust is a judging of God's Character as either being trustworthy or not. For this we must know Him as trustworthy and we did not even know what distrust was until Satan introduced it. It would be like experiencing a lie for the first time without any concept of what a lie is. Faith is the source of obedience toward whoever you trust and trust in the woman for Adam preceded disobedience to God. Adam and Eve were naive.
The Holy Spirit draws "ALL" men to the Grace of God. If we choose to believe in Christ or seek after Him (at the urging of the Holy Spirit) we must put all of our flawed (mustard seed faith in Christ and Him alone.) God, through the Holy Spirit gives us "saving faith." Salvation is of God and the only part we play in this Spiritual scenario is, placing our God given "mustard seed faith in Christ.
A safe assessment though I don't think you fully comprehend what you've said since you do not know how the devil's works succeeded in corrupting mankind. For you cannot say the Holy Spirit draws a man without understanding that man is possessed by a false image of god sold to us by Satan which is why The Holy Spirit testifies to the Father and the son in the first place.
You stated, "The statement that it would be wrong to excuse men by saying the devil made them do it, is in error" No, that's not an error. We have as humans, (because of the fall) have a will to sin and can't ALWAYS blame the devil because we are held accountable, personally for our sins.
If you are right then there is no hope because the scripture says blessed is he whom God does not impute sin and you say God imputes everybodies sin. So either I'm right and God does not impute sin to some, or you are, and all men will die guilty in their sins without being presented blameless. Also you must by your conclusion not understand how a defiled conscience is cleansed, nor how a man is sanctified nor justified. Deeper knowledge knows that sin is in the flesh against our will to have it and we have all succumbed through weakness. Mercy is our only hope, so we best have mercy so we may receive mercy.
You said, " We become what we believe in, and choose accordingly." You'll have to explain that further before I can give an opinion.
If I believe Adam is guilty of treason, I am guilty of treason. If I hold others sins against them so does God hold mine against me. For whatever measure we use to judge others will be used against us. We believed Satan knew more than we and sold out our trust in a pure Image of God and consequently sinned. Distrust preceded disobedience. We then became that image we had believed in through Satan even as we became a child of Satan.
You've got to take into consideration, "The Great White Throne judgement" where stand, the small and the great, of which John speaks about in Revelation. No man will be able to say, "the devil made me do it."
No they won't be able to say that, since they never excused anybody else according to such mercy as the Christ has shown us, who did say that but they would not agree and so condemned themselves. So also their works are according to their treatment of others under the same condemning mindset where the Holy Spirits Love cannot live.
You say, " We and Adam are guilty of ignorance and so does the bible agree. That's not true.
Oh yes it is absolutely True, even as God is Holy. It is this Truth that sets one free. But refuse to believe this Truth and God will give you over to a lie. You have one question to ask yourself; Why did Jesus say forgive them they know not what they do? Hint: It is the same reason why Saul was Saul before he became Paul. While you're at it ask yourself why the accuser of the brethren, (who are saying the same as you, GUILTY) were kicked out of heaven?
Humanity stands guilty of sin, not ignorance.
Sin came by distrust of God who is ever trustworthy, it is therefore ignorance of God's trustworthiness. Satan is who says humanity is guilty of sin, and if we believe him and not Jesus who died to protect us from Satan, we have no power to carry the cross.
Adam was NOT ignorant of the law that God laid down. God told Adam and Eve not to eat of that particular tree. They weren't ignorant when they chose to eat of the tree.
You are right, they were not ignorant of God's commandment. A commandment is pointless if one does not trust who gave it. Anyone can patronize God by saying let's be obedient, but he who knows why to be obedient does not patronize. That is why righteousness is by faith and not by the law.
I would like to see you explain, how man, is only guilty of ignorance and not of sin...I await your answer...
This was written a while back:
I've never studied any of the writings of Calvin and I've never even heard of Arminian. I just know that the term free applied in front of will offers the possibility of it's counterpart, slavery so as to make the distinction. So, objectively they are both relative, but to what? left is right to one who is facing you, but which way is the west for I keep going forever and never get there. I was heading south but eventually I ended up going North. All things are relative to an absolute. Scripture says whom you obey is your master. What is freedom from God is servitude to sin, What is servitude to God is freedom from sin. No edification in arguing semantics.
We all inherit sin through Adam according to scripture. If we go back to the first man we do not find that God gave him a choice regarding eating of the tree of knowledge. God never said to man he could disobey Him for He is the absolute. It was in fact Satan who proposed we had a choice, hence he said we could disobey and not die. In this sense
freedom became a temptation only viable through a corrupt image of God.
For Satan said, God does not want you to eat, because He knows if you eat, your eyes will be open and you will be like Gods. Hence to the innocent, who had no knowledge of guile,
an image of God was sown in their minds, that was of a self-serving God, who would sacrifice others for Himself. Being deceived by this most cunning of God's creatures, they believed, or rather unbelieved, and ate.
Now some will claim that because there was an option, we could have said no to Satan.
The mind that thinks thus misses the point;
that the mistake was that we accepted a corrupt image of God and traded in what was Holy for what was not. This is what fascilitated disobedience. And this was possible
because we did not know what Holiness was when we had it. Regardless, we now all die and have sin even as God who was ever true had said would happen. Our minds being corrupted, the will cannot be free. If one now claims he has no sin, he is a liar.
For this reason Jesus said the Truth will set you free. Free from what? we are slaves to no one they answered. Whosoever sins is a slave to sin, Jesus said. And then this Jesus, this Christ, who is
the True Image of God even as the only begotten of the Father climbed onto his cross and revealed the eternal loving trustworthiness of Gods nature. And there he sacrificed himself for us saying, forgive them Father for they know not what they do.
Now if we eat this bread from heaven, if we believe that this is the nature of God, though I cannot fathom any reason why anyone would not want to believe this, then it is a good thing He is self-serving, according to His perpetually perfect nature. Consequently it is a good thing to serve Him, for whoever serves Him, in truth serves himself. There is nothing wrong with slavery to God except to the corrupt mind. But the pure mind desires only to serve Him. Please be not offended in me, or be offended if you must, for many were offended by God's Christ, even because he revealed our own wicked depravity based upon a corrupt image of god.
He is the only true light that shines in the darkness we are in. For this reason, the children of God are born out of corruption. So that they can grow towards God forever and love Him with all their hearts ,minds, and souls. Unfortunately for man, we often must believe in evil before we believe in good. The only freewill is one that sees the Truth, and is enslaved by it. To believe we can choose to not obey God is our vanity, and our destuction.
