Freewill or robotic puppetry ?

[Grubal Muruch]

Let me approach this from a different way. I am always guilty of sin Grubal, everywhere I go. For there are always those who are without a warm place to sleep while I have one, and there are hungry people while I am full. I am ever a sinner in this world and I'm ever thankful to God I feel guilt.

So this is at the heart of your angst. I think you are arguing semantics. How do you know you havn't misinterpreted this election doctrine as man made because it was misunderstood? How do you know? For it remains plausible that God could save all men and He yet will, but at His leisure according to His purpose. God says He will have mercy upon whom He will have mercy so that it be his grace. Is this not election? Many of the last will be first. Is this not election? The lowly were chosen rich in faith, is this not election? You say God is a logical God, yet God is Spirit which is higher than logic, even as a person is more passion than intellect. Hence this God has chosen the foolish things to put to not the wisdom of this world; for God's illogical foolishness is greater than the wisdom of men. To find the Truth at the center of the cherubim one must see from both sides.

childeye---I'll get back with your answers later today, I have to go out OK?

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Let me approach this from a different way. I am always guilty of sin Grubal, everywhere I go. For there are always those who are without a warm place to sleep while I have one, and there are hungry people while I am full. I am ever a sinner in this world and I'm ever thankful to God I feel guilt.

So this is at the heart of your angst. I think you are arguing semantics. How do you know you havn't misinterpreted this election doctrine as man made because it was misunderstood? How do you know? For it remains plausible that God could save all men and He yet will, but at His leisure according to His purpose. God says He will have mercy upon whom He will have mercy so that it be his grace. Is this not election? Many of the last will be first. Is this not election? The lowly were chosen rich in faith, is this not election? You say God is a logical God, yet God is Spirit which is higher than logic, even as a person is more passion than intellect. Hence this God has chosen the foolish things to put to not the wisdom of this world; for God's illogical foolishness is greater than the wisdom of men. To find the Truth at the center of the cherubim one must see from both sides.

childeye---So this is at the heart of your angst. I think you are arguing semantics. How do you know you havn't misinterpreted this election doctrine as man made because it was misunderstood?

Grubal---I have read up on the T.U.L.I.P. doctrines and have heard what Calvinists believe (from them personally) And their doctrines are not supported by Scripture in my personal opinion. They PREACH, what I don't READ in the Scriptures. Their interpretation of God's Grace does not hold up to Scriptural truth. Therefore, I reject it as "man made doctrine." History does not shine brightly, on the likes of John Calvin. And in my opinion, we must consider the source.

childeye---For it remains plausible that God could save all men and He yet will, but at His leisure according to His purpose.

Grubal---God's Grace is offered to ALL, but not All will receive it. God is a totally righteous God and He must "judge" sin. The Bible says,"without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin." Christ's Atonement on the cross is the way God dealt with sin. Jesus became sin for us. God could have just, spoke the word and ALL of us could have been saved, but like I said, God must judge sin. Not ALL will come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.

chileye---God says He will have mercy upon whom He will have mercy so that it be his grace. Is this not election?

Grubal---The one's who are shown mercy, are those who have or will place their faith in Christ and His Atonement on the cross, and by the work of the Holy Spirit. Election means, those who trust only in Christ for their Salvation, are "elected" to become a child of God.

 

[mondar]

Grubal---I have read up on the T.U.L.I.P. doctrines and have heard what Calvinists believe (from them personally) And their doctrines are not supported by Scripture in my personal opinion. They PREACH, what I don't READ in the Scriptures. Their interpretation of God's Grace does not hold up to Scriptural truth. Therefore, I reject it as "man made doctrine." History does not shine brightly, on the likes of John Calvin. And in my opinion, we must consider the source.

Yes, but did you ever read what Calvinists say about TULIP themselves? Which Calvinist have you read?

 

[jasoncran]

i have learned from mondar that calvinism isnt that far off. i am not a calvinist and calvin wasnt that and isnt that far from me

oh, luther murder jews so therefore the very idea of solo scriptura is thrown out grubal. you are making the mistake of what is called poisoning the well.no pastor or teacher is sinless.

 

[mondar]

Men are born into sin (original sin, because of Adam) We are sinners at birth. However, we are born with an ability to make choices. We're not so depraved that we're unable to choose to do good. However, the good deeds done in the flesh are considered "as filthy rags" we're told in the Bible. Only after being "born again Spiritually" can we produce, true good works and bring forth fruit...

So men in original sin can do "good" "filthy rags." Is this what you are saying? Where are you getting this definition of original sin from?

 

[mondar]

i have learned from mondar that calvinism isnt that far off. i am not a calvinist and calvin wasnt that and isnt that far from me

oh, luther murder jews so therefore the very idea of solo scriptura is thrown out grubal. you are making the mistake of what is called poisoning the well.no pastor or teacher is sinless.

"poisoning the well" -------> Laws of logic ---------> my hat is off to you Jason.

 

[childeye]

=Grubal Muruch;577623]
God's Grace is offered to ALL, but not All will receive it.

I don't know why someone would not receive forgiveness unless perhaps they don't think there is anything they do that needs forgiveness. They are not sorry maybe? And I don't think anybody can be sorry unless they can feel the pain they have inflicted and have remorse. Love is a requirement for all of this. I have told you what we did wrong. We slandered The ever faithful God Who loves us with a pure Love by, as scripture says, changing the glory of the incorruptible God into a image like unto corruptible man.

Here I would like to say what grieves me about the theme of your thread. You have implied that people like me, who believe men's wills are slaves to such ignorance of God are preaching that men are robots. You talk of sin as if men could simply choose to not sin while I am preaching that it is because we hold a false image of god, we have been given over to the lusts of our flesh. When I tell the unbeliever of how men are enslaved in their wills to sin, you in Jesus' name contradict me by saying, no, no, God gave men the ability to choose and so the will is free. Yet scripture shows men cannot stop sinning without sanctification by the Truth. In fact we cannot even recognize our sin so as to choose not to without the Holy Spirit convicting us.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

I don't know why someone would not receive forgiveness unless perhaps they don't think there is anything they do that needs forgiveness. They are not sorry maybe? And I don't think anybody can be sorry unless they can feel the pain they have inflicted and have remorse. Love is a requirement for all of this. I have told you what we did wrong. We slandered The ever faithful God Who loves us with a pure Love by, as scripture says, changing the glory of the incorruptible God into a image like unto corruptible man.

Here I would like to say what grieves me about the theme of your thread. You have implied that people like me, who believe men's wills are slaves to such ignorance of God are preaching that men are robots. You talk of sin as if men could simply choose to not sin while I am preaching that it is because we hold a false image of god, we have been given over to the lusts of our flesh. When I tell the unbeliever of how men are enslaved in their wills to sin, you in Jesus' name contradict me by saying, no, no, God gave men the ability to choose and so the will is free. Yet scripture shows men cannot stop sinning without sanctification by the Truth. In fact we cannot even recognize our sin so as to choose not to without the Holy Spirit convicting us.

God gave man the free-will to choose what he will believe. The Holy Spirit convicts and strives with the "unsaved" in order to bring them into the "body of Christ" by being "born-again Spiritually." It IS God's will that ALL men might receive His Grace through the Atonement of Christ His Son, who died for ALL men's sins. Although Christs Atonement for our sins and God's Grace is available to ALL men, (due to the fact Christ died for the sins of the entire world) however, not ALL will receive it, needless to say, some reject it of their own free-will...

 

[childeye]

God gave man the free-will to choose what he will believe. The Holy Spirit convicts and strives with the "unsaved" in order to bring them into the "body of Christ" by being "born-again Spiritually." It IS God's will that ALL men might receive His Grace through the Atonement of Christ His Son, who died for ALL men's sins. Although Christs Atonement for our sins and God's Grace is available to ALL men, (due to the fact Christ died for the sins of the entire world) however, not ALL will receive it, needless to say, some reject it of their own free-will...

You make no sense Grubal. So you are saying you could choose not to believe in Jesus as Messiah?

 

[Grubal Muruch]

You make no sense Grubal. So you are saying you could choose not to believe in Jesus as Messiah?

Sadly it happens ALL the time. First of all, you cannot deny that, the Jews as a nation, denied Christ as their Messiah. People of today reject Him. And people of tomorrow will continue to do so...In conclusion, maybe you think, that makes no sense, but it's the reality of the way it is,except it or not, it's still the truth...

 

[childeye]

Sadly it happens ALL the time. First of all, you cannot deny that, the Jews as a nation, denied Christ as their Messiah. People of today reject Him. And people of tomorrow will continue to do so...In conclusion, maybe you think, that makes no sense, but it's the reality of the way it is,except it or not, it's still the truth...

You dodged my question Grubal. Of course the Jews have denied the Christ. This does in no way prove they could not have. The scriptures say, that had they had the hidden wisdom, they would not have crucified the Christ. Scriptures also say that blindness in part had come upon them so that their rejection would open the way for the gentiles to receive Christ. With this testimony, your point that we can choose what to believe is in error. That's the reality and the Truth which I have accepted, but do you?

 

[Eventide]

So what is the deal here.. do some people actually believe that they receive 'special' revelation from God so that they believe and that others don't ?

Seriously.. is that what people are debating here.. ?

I would agree 100% that the truth is undeniable.. and I would disagree 100% that it's irresistable.

 

[childeye]

So what is the deal here.. do some people actually believe that they receive 'special' revelation from God so that they believe and that others don't ?

Seriously.. is that what people are debating here.. ?

I would agree 100% that the truth is undeniable.. and I would disagree 100% that it's irresistable.

Yes some people believe that they receive special revelation that others do not. Here's the testimony of one of those people:
1 Corinthians 2:7-10

King James Version (KJV)



7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

 

[Eventide]

Yes some people believe that they receive special revelation that others do not. Here's the testimony of one of those people:
1 Corinthians 2:7-10

King James Version (KJV)



7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

Paul is writing to the church of God here.. to those who trusted in Christ and have been sealed by the Holy Spirit of God.. and of course only the body of Christ would have knowledge of the deep things of God.. like His church etc..

Although I'm talking about the conviction that comes from God to all men before they're in Christ and members of the church.. do you think that was different for you than for anyone else.. ?

He is that true light which lighteth EVERY MAN that comes into the world, right.. so do you actually think that you received special revelation in order to believe ?

 

[reba]

Where is the free will of bondage to sin?

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Joh 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

 

[childeye]

Paul is writing to the church of God here.. to those who trusted in Christ and have been sealed by the Holy Spirit of God.. and of course only the body of Christ would have knowledge of the deep things of God.. like His church etc..

Although I'm talking about the conviction that comes from God to all men before they're in Christ and members of the church.. do you think that was different for you than for anyone else.. ?

He is that true light which lighteth EVERY MAN that comes into the world, right.. so do you actually think that you received special revelation in order to believe ?

I see no discernable point you are making. The statement by Paul was written to the church, so what? Is it less true if written to unbelievers? You say you are talking about the conviction that comes from God to all men before they're in Christ. What is this conviction? The conscience under the knowledge of good and evil? We're talking about being able to control our own ability to believe in the Truth sent by God and Paul is saying he got his by revelation and that it was hidden from others.

do you actually think that you received special revelation in order to believe ?

Yes I'm sure of it, even as Paul is. Don't even begin to tell me you figured God out all by yourself Eventide.

 

[childeye]

Where is the free will of bondage to sin?

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Joh 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Excellent post Reba. Why is it that this is always where the battle is fought? Was this the first lie ever told, that men were free to disobey God and live?

 

[Eventide]

I see no discernable point you are making. The statement by Paul was written to the church, so what? Is it less true if written to unbelievers? You say you are talking about the conviction that comes from God to all men before they're in Christ. What is this conviction? The conscience under the knowledge of good and evil? We're talking about being able to control our own ability to believe in the Truth sent by God and Paul is saying he got his by revelation and that it was hidden from others.

So you're telling me that you see no difference between the Holy Spirit sent into the world to convict it of sin, righteousness, and judgment.. as compared to the Spirit of God living within a believer ?

If Christ is that true light which lighteth every man that comes into the world.. then why don't all men have this revelation in your opinion ?

Yes I'm sure of it

You're sure that you received 'special' revelation in order to believe the gospel ? Is that what you're saying here..?

Don't even begin to tell me you figured God out all by yourself Eventide.

Why would I say that.. I believed God when He convicted me of sin, righteousness, and judgment.. and after I believed, He baptized me into His body.. just like every other believer before and after me.

 

[Eventide]

Special...

Ok, help me understand this..

People are led to believe that they received special revelation in order to be saved.. it's true in childeye's case and it must also be true for any person who embraces 'irresistable grace'..

So why do people get upset when I tell them that this is a special case..? When it admittedly is a special case ?

 

[childeye]

=Eventide;577868]So you're telling me that you see no difference between the Holy Spirit sent into the world to convict it of sin, righteousness, and judgment.. as compared to the Spirit of God living within a believer ?

I believe they are the same Spirit if that's what you are asking. There is only one Truth.

If Christ is that true light which lighteth every man that comes into the world.. then why don't all men have this revelation in your opinion ?

So that God could put to naught the wisdom and vanity of men lest they think by their wisdom they had believed..

You're sure that you received 'special' revelation in order to believe the gospel ? Is that what you're saying here..?

Apart from how you are applying the word 'special', yes I received revelation in order to believe the Gospel. Otherwise Jesus was not testified to by the Holy Spirit. I personally asked God to show me if Jesus was his son. And some don't even believe in God so as to ask.

Why would I say that.. I believed God when He convicted me of sin, righteousness, and judgment.. and after I believed, He baptized me into His body.. just like every other believer before and after me.

So you received revelation also; for God revealed sin and righteousness and judgment to you. So what's the point you're making?