Freewill or robotic puppetry ?

[childeye]

Re: Special...

Ok, help me understand this..

People are led to believe that they received special revelation in order to be saved.. it's true in childeye's case and it must also be true for any person who embraces 'irresistable grace'..

So why do people get upset when I tell them that this is a special case..? When it admittedly is a special case ?

Why is any revelation given to me any more special than what"s given to you or anyone else for that matter?

 

[Eventide]

I believe they are the same Spirit if that's what you are asking. There is only one Truth.

I agree that it's the same Spirit.. although the Spirit wasn't revealing the 'deep things of God' to me before I was saved.. He was convincing me of my need for my sins to be forgiven through the righteousness of His Son. I had no clue what the church of God was when I was first saved.. as any other babe in Christ.

So that God could put to naught the wisdom and vanity of men lest they think by their wisdom they had believed..

So that's why you think that God gave you special revelation to believe.. because you're not as vain as others..? ? ?

Apart from how you are applying the word 'special', yes I received revelation in order to believe the Gospel. Otherwise Jesus was not testified to by the Holy Spirit. I personally asked God to show me if Jesus was his son. And some don't even believe in God so as to ask.

And once again.. do you think that He doesn't offer this revelation to all men so that they too can trust in Him for the forgiveness of their sins..?

So you received revelation also; for God revealed sin and righteousness and judgment to you. So what's the point you're making?

In case you're missing the obvious.. I was convicted by the same Spirit that is sent into the world to convict it.. not a special revelation in order for me to believe.. I'm no different than anyone else..

Maybe this will help.. you believe that the revelation given to you was irresistable so that you had to believe it.. correct.. ? I don't believe that.. I believe that it's undeniable, although not irresistable.. I've been in Chist too long to believe that I can't resist His Spirit.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

So what is the deal here.. do some people actually believe that they receive 'special' revelation from God so that they believe and that others don't ?

Seriously.. is that what people are debating here.. ?

I would agree 100% that the truth is undeniable.. and I would disagree 100% that it's irresistable.

Some believe, God "elected" whom He would save, before the foundation of the world. And therefore, they will become saved (they have NO choice) Other's believe we are endowed with "free-will" and can receive Christ or reject Him. It's a matter of "Calvinism vs Free-will...

 

[Eventide]

Some believe, God "elected" whom He would save, before the foundation of the world. And therefore, they will become saved (they have NO choice) ...

And they wonder why that is considered special to some people..?

 

[Grubal Muruch]

I agree that it's the same Spirit.. although the Spirit wasn't revealing the 'deep things of God' to me before I was saved.. He was convincing me of my need for my sins to be forgiven through the righteousness of His Son. I had no clue what the church of God was when I was first saved.. as any other babe in Christ.



So that's why you think that God gave you special revelation to believe.. because you're not as vain as others..? ? ?



And once again.. do you think that He doesn't offer this revelation to all men so that they too can trust in Him for the forgiveness of their sins..?



In case you're missing the obvious.. I was convicted by the same Spirit that is sent into the world to convict it.. not a special revelation in order for me to believe.. I'm no different than anyone else..

Maybe this will help.. you believe that the revelation given to you was irresistable so that you had to believe it.. correct.. ? I don't believe that.. I believe that it's undeniable, although not irresistable.. I've been in Chist too long to believe that I can't resist His Spirit.

Shame upon you, Eventide for making so much sense...That's not fair to represent the truth. You ought to know better...

 

[childeye]

=Eventide;577876]I agree that it's the same Spirit.. although the Spirit wasn't revealing the 'deep things of God' to me before I was saved.. He was convincing me of my need for my sins to be forgiven through the righteousness of His Son. I had no clue what the church of God was when I was first saved.. as any other babe in Christ.

I think we all come to God from a unique perspective.

So that's why you think that God gave you special revelation to believe.. because you're not as vain as others..? ? ?

Eventide, did I say that? Be honest. I never said that. Now why do you misrepresent what I said? Is it not the enemy between us? I say this in love.

And once again.. do you think that He doesn't offer this revelation to all men so that they too can trust in Him for the forgiveness of their sins..?

Actually I can't honestly say he does or doesn't, for He has mercy on whom he will have mercy. But this I will say, If He does, He will do so in a way so that no man can boast and no flesh will glory.

In case you're missing the obvious.. I was convicted by the same Spirit that is sent into the world to convict it.. not a special revelation in order for me to believe.. I'm no different than anyone else..

Yeah I know that is what you believe for this to you is your humility, but you are wrong in this sense. Every child is special to their parents. Also, how would you feel if I said you disregarded the revelation of God unto eternal life as anything special. But I would not say that to you and take the devils cause.

Maybe this will help.. you believe that the revelation given to you was irresistable so that you had to believe it.. correct.. ?

Eventide, I saw what he gave me to see and it is what I needed at the time.

I don't believe that.. I believe that it's undeniable, although not irresistable.. I've been in Chist too long to believe that I can't resist His Spirit.

Eventide it is not you that resists, it is your flesh, and God does not count it against you unless you count it against others. That is why I am here saying what I say. When you believe that God loves you unconditionally in the midst of your sin, sin will have no power over you, you will stop resisting and you will end up eating your words and say God is irresistable.

 

[reba]

Isn't the power of the Holy Spirit special?

 

[childeye]

Some believe, God "elected" whom He would save, before the foundation of the world. And therefore, they will become saved (they have NO choice) Other's believe we are endowed with "free-will" and can receive Christ or reject Him. It's a matter of "Calvinism vs Free-will...

It's a matter of Truth vs lies.

 

[childeye]

Shame upon you, Eventide for making so much sense...That's not fair to represent the truth. You ought to know better...

And what Truth might that be? Come on guys, I'm right here. Deal with me if you are not afraid.

 

[reba]

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,


Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life


A few passages are they at odds with each other? no All are Gods Word. The question is how we 'see' relate, etc to the Scriptures. We are just people we bring our own thoughts/history to what we read. I trust, as you do, He is able Rom 9:28 For he will finish the work. I do believe we, Christians, are where we should be in Him at this time.


Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Joh 15:17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

And what Truth might that be? Come on guys, I'm right here. Deal with me if you are not afraid.

I for one, pretty much believe everything "Eventide" writes...

 

[childeye]

I for one, pretty much believe everything "Eventide" writes...

Come on Grubal, that is not dealing with me. I agree with many things eventide writes and you write, but this thought that God is resistable comes from where? Pride? It certainly isn't knowledge and therefore isn't Truth. Name me one other thing in the universe that is more desirable than God. You guys can't because He made everything and apart from Him there is nothing.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

It's a matter of Truth vs lies.

And, on which side you stand, depends upon your perspective...

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Come on Grubal, that is not dealing with me. I agree with many things eventide writes and you write, but this thought that God is resistable comes from where? Pride? It certainly isn't knowledge and therefore isn't Truth. Name me one other thing in the universe that is more desirable than God. You guys can't because He made everything and apart from Him there is nothing.

The "Chosen" of God (Israel) resisted against the will of God, and whenever they repented He forgave them. I'll give you an analogy about faith, "Say, a man owes a debt of $10,000 and he's unable to pay the debt. But a rich man comes along and offers to pay off his debt. Now, let's say the rich man tells the man in debt, all I expect out of you is, that you'll put faith in me that I will pay your debt. The poor man then excepts the rich man's proposal and puts his faith in the rich man. The rich man does exactly as he promised and pays the debt. Now, the question is, did the man in debt, play an "ACTIVE" role, in the paying of the debt???

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Name me one other thing in the universe that is more desirable than God. .

This is true for the "believer" but not so much with "carnal" man.

 

[Eventide]

Shame upon you, Eventide for making so much sense...That's not fair to represent the truth. You ought to know better...

I know.. these things tend to go back and forth and no person is convinced of anything.. sometimes it's best to just let the special ones alone..

 

[ivdavid]

Eventide,

I'm really weary with running around trying to get direct answers from you. Why not bring closure to what we're discussing now, once and for all here. Just direct, conclusive answers - what say?

Your argument is that one who receives mercy is special when compared to one who does not receive mercy. And I ask - what do you find inherently special in the nature of that man receiving mercy that you cannot find in the one not receiving mercy? Try and simply mention that attribute(s) alone - try not to respond with another question except if that question conveys some valid answer. Thank you.

Quoting from the earlier thread,

How about the rich man who walked away from the LORD..

And why didn't we walk away? Are we inherently better than the rich man to have made the right choice there? Have we made the right choices in our life until that point in time to find us equipped enough to have more love for the Lord than for money or any other heart-hardening sin? If so, aren't these then the traits of goodness within us which could be said to be lacking in people like that rich man? Can you see the implications of your position?

Simply tell me how these don't amount to inherent traits of goodness that some have and others don't.


I'm quoting this again from the other thread - I'd really like to hear a specific answer from you, though you're not obligated to give one.

Well, you do know what my concern is. The good samaritan chose to help the victim while the others didn't choose to - the samaritan's choice is considered good while the others' is considered evil. Every such choice entails a good and an evil. Similarly, choosing to obey the Gospel is good and choosing not to is evil. I'm simply asking what the differentiating factor is that resulted in the believers committing this good while the others committed evil, given that both these groups of people contain the exact same sinful fleshly nature. The only available answers are that these people did such good out of an inherent goodness or that these people manifested the good work done in them by God alone. What is your pick - A simple and direct answer would do. Or perhaps you're not sure and are waiting for God to lead you into truth. Can you specify which one it is so we can bring closure to this line of discussion - or are we going to continue rephrasing the same stuff in various other ways?

 

[Eventide]

Eventide,

I'm really weary with running around trying to get direct answers from you. Why not bring closure to what we're discussing now, once and for all here. Just direct, conclusive answers - what say?

Your argument is that one who receives mercy is special when compared to one who does not receive mercy. And I ask - what do you find inherently special in the nature of that man receiving mercy that you cannot find in the one not receiving mercy? Try and simply mention that attribute(s) alone - try not to respond with another question except if that question conveys some valid answer. Thank you.

Well, let's see.. once again.. although I'm sure it wont make any difference.

You get eternal life.. God chooses YOU unconditionally.. and those He doesn't choose have no hope. If you can't see how that is special.. then I'm sorry. And then you have the audacity to call others dishonest.. what more is there to say. IMO that says it all.

I've been called dishonest, a liar.. and that's all fine.. it's all good right.. I can live with that.. Evidently you can't live with being labeled special.

No worries my friend.. it's simply my opinion on the matter. This isn't going to be resolved here in CF.. if that's what you're hoping for.

 

[reba]

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

 

[mondar]

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Reba, I don't see how that one leaves much wiggle room. He chose us.