Freewill or robotic puppetry ?

[glorydaz]

I am reading you believed you were free when you were a sinner? Is that what you believe? or did i miss something?

Words on paper without the the use of eye contact can be hard to grasp.

LOL I know what you mean. Of course it depends on what you mean by free. I was certainly free to believe there was a God. I could tell that just by looking around me. I knew men were given a conscience, and could follow that or sear it as the case may be. I saw the hypocrisy of religion before I even knew what the Bible taught. When I actually did happen to stumble across some Scripture that related to Bible prophecy, I was dumbfounded and thirsted for more. When I looked at the "red letters" and what Jesus had spoken, I prayed and He convicted my heart of my sin. Forty some years later, I'm still hungry.....

 

[childeye]

=glorydaz;578740]Actually, we are free to choose, and we're told to choose life.

No actually, the law is a testimony against man that he could not choose life. For we know this is why we preach that all men are dead in sin.

Also Joshua warned the people that they could not serve God but they would not listen to him. Both scriptures you provided testify against a man's freewill and proves men are slaves to sin and a false image of god.

 

[glorydaz]

Respectfully you are equating freewill with sentience. Freewill is defined as a choice made without any outside entities restraining or compeling such as destiny or Divine will. So you're saying mankind had a freewill to fall and was not deceived by Satan? That love is not necessary for a man to be good?
Man is no longer held captive, you say. Hence you have already acknowledged that men's wills were compromised. The prison doors have been opened, you say. Yet how is it we were ever in prison if we were free in our wills as you say. Walking out of the open door requires a step of faith...that small measure of faith you say, so how is it a man could choose freely without something to put forth his faith into? Did not this Christ come from God? Moreover is not the carnal mind unable to see spiritual things without the intervention of God?

Satan is given too much credit you say yet, Jesus said that he came to destroy the works of Satan and that there would be many deceived by wolves in sheeps clothing. Is he giving Satan too much credit? And Paul the Apostle said that he was afraid Satan would beguile believers even as Eve was beguiled. Is Paul giving Satan too much credit? John the apostle said that Satan would deceive the whole world. Is he giving Satan too much credit? So I as I believe in what all these who know more than I, why should we brush off so lightly what they instructed us to be on guard for?
I submit that you misrepresent scripture if you are saying this is proof that men have not been deceived. Even Satan believes in the Godhead.

Yes I agree, that is very true even as Jesus said, "the lusts of your father you will do".


Scripture does not say that. Jesus does not lie when he says you must be taught by God to come to him. He also says you must have the love of God abiding in your heart to believe in him. Respectfully I must ask you why everything you are saying is contrary to what the Christ and his apostles said? Do you even care? I say this with concern.

Whoops....I can see this is going to require a longer answer and I've just been invited to play a game of chess.
I want to give this my full attention, though, so don't give up on me.

 

[childeye]

=Grubal Muruch;578734]


Grubal--- We are ALL "free in our wills to place our "mustard seed" faith in
Christ are only Savior and Lord...That's all I'll admit about that my
friend...

But you've already unwittingly admitted the will was not free of that person who was freed from a spirit of deaf and dumbness by Jesus. You've already unwittingly admitted the will is not free when you said we must be born again of the Spirit of God.

Grubal---It's not that they don't factor into the equation. But, the Bible tells
us,"1 John 4:4-- You are of God, little children, and have overcome them:
because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Thank you for again acknowledging that God in us, (Christ) sets us free from the powers of darkness.

Instead fighting the forces of darkness, make sure your a child of God first.

They are one and the same. Making sure you are a child of God and then working the vineyard to set others free, is fighting the forces of darkness. For where the light is, darkness is not there, but where light is not, darkness is there.

childeye---So it's not our freewill that sets us free in our will, is it?[/QUOTE]

Grubal---Our free-will allows us to choose or reject the Word of God. Our
free-will does not have any "special" significant power of it's own...other than
to make choices in life...

Very well then grubal, you are according to every dictionary, describing determinism, the opposite of freewill. Respectfully, you are defining freewill as sentience, which is not a proper use of the term. Surely you must admit there are Higher powers. You cannot say you are free to deny God, when in fact those are powers of darkness controlling you with lies, for God is Truth. Whoever denies Truth is not free, but dishonest and blinded in pride, children of disobedience being ruled by Satan.

 

[glorydaz]

No actually, the law is a testimony against man that he could not choose life. For we know this is why we preach that all men are dead in sin.

Also Joshua warned the people that they could not serve God but they would not listen to him. Both scriptures you provided testify against a man's freewill and proves men are slaves to sin and a false image of god.

I can see you edited your post which is just as well, I suppose. I do so hate having to defend myself against false charges. You make a lot of assumptions from what I've posted.

But taking it from what you've said now......

The law isn't a testimony against man that he could not choose life. The law was given to show man his sinful condition. We know, even in the Old Testament, men were saved by their faith in God. I'm not sure how you come to the conclusion the verses I cited testify against man's free will, but I'm more than happy to listen if you have something of substance to back that up.

I just lost quickly at chess, so I'm open to correction if you'd care to get more specific. BTW...where to you find Joshua warning the people that they could not serve God? Doesn't sound like Joshua to me.

 

[reba]

LOL I know what you mean. Of course it depends on what you mean by free. I was certainly free to believe there was a God. I could tell that just by looking around me. I knew men were given a conscience, and could follow that or sear it as the case may be. I saw the hypocrisy of religion before I even knew what the Bible taught. When I actually did happen to stumble across some Scripture that related to Bible prophecy, I was dumbfounded and thirsted for more. When I looked at the "red letters" and what Jesus had spoken, I prayed and He convicted my heart of my sin. Forty some years later, I'm still hungry.....

Satan believes/knows there is God.

I will not keep going in the circles this topic brings about. :yes

I trust the Lord that you with your view and me with mine are both Christian! I will tell you how much more alive the Word became to me about 15 years ago. Spent about 50 years in the 'Army' camp.

Why did you hunger for the Word and gool ol Joe didn't? I say it was the Spirit of God stiring your soul/spirit. I say it was not of yourself. not your faith but God...

Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.


Blessings brother

 

[Grubal Muruch]

No actually, the law is a testimony against man that he could not choose life. For we know this is why we preach that all men are dead in sin.

Also Joshua warned the people that they could not serve God but they would not listen to him. Both scriptures you provided testify against a man's freewill and proves men are slaves to sin and a false image of god.

childeye---No actually, the law is a testimony against man that he could not choose life. For we know this is why we preach that all men are dead in sin.

Grubal--- Man could not follow the law, in that man was weak. Men are dead in sin but can be made alive through the Grace of God.

I would ask you a question ? Would you rather discontinue this dialog with me. Because it doesn't seem to be going anywhere. I answer your questions and you disavow what I say. So we could just end the dialog. But if you wish to continue for whatever reason let me know, otherwise it's been nice talking with you...

childeye---Also Joshua warned the people that they could not serve God but they would not listen to him.

Grubal---Where does it say that, Joshua warned the people could not serve God ?

 

[childeye]

=glorydaz;578800]I can see you edited your post which is just as well, I
suppose. I do so hate having to defend myself against false charges. You make
a lot of assumptions from what I've posted.

I often reread my posts and check if I like the disposition presented.

But taking it from what you've said now......





The law isn't a testimony against man that he could not choose life. The law
was given to show man his sinful condition.

It was presented as choose life or death and therefore presents as up to our discretion. As we could not keep them because of sin, hence we were not actually free to choose life to begin with. Therefore a freewill is not present but rather a slavery to sin is.

We know, even in the Old Testament, men were saved by their faith in God.

Well said, which means a True image of God is necessary for faith to occur. In other words if we believed God was a liar we would not obey Him since we would not trust Him.

I'm not sure how you come to the conclusion the verses I cited testify
against man's free will, but I'm more than happy to listen if you have
something of substance to back that up.

To have a freewill, one must be able to choose a direction and accomplish what it chooses. For it would mean nothing for me to say, I am free to choose to do this or that but I cannot do this or that.

I just lost quickly at chess, so I'm open to correction if you'd care to get
more specific. BTW...where to you find Joshua warning the people that they
could not serve God? Doesn't sound like Joshua to me.

Joshua 24:19

 

[glorydaz]

Satan believes/knows there is God.

I will not keep going in the circles this topic brings about. :yes

I trust the Lord that you with your view and me with mine are both Christian! I will tell you how much more alive the Word became to me about 15 years ago. Spent about 50 years in the 'Army' camp.

Why did you hunger for the Word and gool ol Joe didn't? I say it was the Spirit of God stiring your soul/spirit. I say it was not of yourself. not your faith but God...

Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.


Blessings brother

I'm not sure we're as far apart as it might appear. It's almost as though we speak a different language in many respects. I don't know what you mean by "Army Camp". Yes, there is more to belief than just knowing God exists...as Satan does.

I haven't seen anyone claiming God doesn't draw us. In fact, He draws everyone. Some are drawn early in life and respond...some are drawn late. Some answer the call, some do not. Some are simply unwilling to "sell all they have" and follow. Some draw back because the road is too steep. There is the faith of Christ and our faith in Christ. We can accept the gift of reject it. Those are fairly simple concepts taught throughout the Word of God. It isn't taking any glory unto ourselves when we simply accept the grace of God and believe in His Son.

God has shown Himself to man from the beginning, and He has not hidden His desire for us to seek Him. We do not seek Him in vain. We're His creation. We have an inner yearning to know God. Yes, we're sinful, which is why He sent His Redeemer, but God expects us to look for and desire Him even in our sinful condition. In fact, that's often when we do find Him...when we have been brought to our knees by the very circumstances He has arranged.

I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

I often reread my posts and check if I like the disposition presented.


It was presented as choose life or death and therefore presents as up to our discretion. As we could not keep them because of sin, hence we were not actually free to choose life to begin with. Therefore a freewill is not present but rather a slavery to sin is.

Well said, which means a True image of God is necessary for faith to occur. In other words if we believed God was a liar we would not obey Him since we would not trust Him.
To have a freewill, one must be able to choose a direction and accomplish what it chooses. For it would mean nothing for me to say, I am free to choose to do this or that but I cannot do this or that.


Joshua 24:19

You took that out of context my friend...and didn't continue Joshua's full meaning...

 

[Grubal Muruch]

I'm not sure we're as far apart as it might appear. It's almost as though we speak a different language in many respects. I don't know what you mean by "Army Camp". Yes, there is more to belief than just knowing God exists...as Satan does.

I haven't seen anyone claiming God doesn't draw us. In fact, He draws everyone. Some are drawn early in life and respond...some are drawn late. Some answer the call, some do not. Some are simply unwilling to "sell all they have" and follow. Some draw back because the road is too steep. There is the faith of Christ and our faith in Christ. We can accept the gift of reject it. Those are fairly simple concepts taught throughout the Word of God. It isn't taking any glory unto ourselves when we simply accept the grace of God and believe in His Son.

God has shown Himself to man from the beginning, and He has not hidden His desire for us to seek Him. We do not seek Him in vain. We're His creation. We have an inner yearning to know God. Yes, we're sinful, which is why He sent His Redeemer, but God expects us to look for and desire Him even in our sinful condition. In fact, that's often when we do find Him...when we have been brought to our knees by the very circumstances He has arranged.

I don't know who you are but you have a lot of wisdom relating to the Word of God. I applaud your stance for truth...

 

[reba]

I will not keep going in the circles this topic brings about. :yes

To tell you your post was pleasant is not going in circles!

"Army camp"

Arminian side of the discussion as apposed to the Calvin Camp. Or A camp v. C camp . A or C
I do not line up totally within one camp but strongly lean to the Calvy camp. I have never studied Calvin my views come from the Word. I learned of Calvin via the internet by getting kicked out of a chat for my choice of scriptures. They called me a calvinist like it was a dirty word this ol girl had NO idea....

reba has her own shorthand.:help

 

[glorydaz]

I often reread my posts and check if I like the disposition presented.


It was presented as choose life or death and therefore presents as up to our discretion. As we could not keep them because of sin, hence we were not actually free to choose life to begin with. Therefore a freewill is not present but rather a slavery to sin is.

Well said, which means a True image of God is necessary for faith to occur. In other words if we believed God was a liar we would not obey Him since we would not trust Him.
To have a freewill, one must be able to choose a direction and accomplish what it chooses. For it would mean nothing for me to say, I am free to choose to do this or that but I cannot do this or that.


Joshua 24:19

Let's look at Joshua, and what he is actually saying here, "Ye cannot serve the LORD." He is exhorting them to refrain from worhipping false Gods. He doesn't mean it's impossible to serve God, or he wouldn't dare to claim he and his house would serve the Lord. This is, instead, a sermon to encourage the people not to fall back into their old ways in the same way Paul warns the new believers not to fall back on the law. No more, no less.

14Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD.

15And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

16And the people answered and said, God forbid that we should forsake the LORD, to serve other gods;

17For the LORD our God, he it is that brought us up and our fathers out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and which did those great signs in our sight, and preserved us in all the way wherein we went, and among all the people through whom we passed:

18And the LORD drave out from before us all the people, even the Amorites which dwelt in the land: therefore will we also serve the LORD; for he is our God.

19And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he is an holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins.

20If ye forsake the LORD, and serve strange gods, then he will turn and do you hurt, and consume you, after that he hath done you good.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Let's look at Joshua, and what he is actually saying here, "Ye cannot serve the LORD." He is exhorting them to refrain from worhipping false Gods. He doesn't mean it's impossible to serve God, or he wouldn't dare to claim he and his house would serve the Lord. This is, instead, a sermon to encourage the people not to fall back into their old ways in the same way Paul warns the new believers not to fall back on the law. No more, no less.

You know what your talking about friend...

 

[glorydaz]

I don't know who you are but you have a lot of wisdom relating to the Word of God. I applaud your stance for truth...

You're very kind, and I've been enjoying your posts too. I just love to meet the brethern over cyber space.

 

[glorydaz]

To tell you your post was pleasant is not going in circles!

"Army camp"

Arminian side of the discussion as apposed to the Calvin Camp. Or A camp v. C camp . A or C
I do not line up totally within one camp but strongly lean to the Calvy camp. I have never studied Calvin my views come from the Word. I learned of Calvin via the internet by getting kicked out of a chat for my choice of scriptures. They called me a calvinist like it was a dirty word this ol girl had NO idea....

reba has her own shorthand.:help

LOL I think we should just forget all about these "camps", and enjoy good old fashioned fellowship around the Word. You can be the hand and I'll be the foot.....or whatever. ;)

 

[childeye]

LOL I think we should just forget all about these "camps", and enjoy good old fashioned fellowship around the Word. You can be the hand and I'll be the foot.....or whatever. ;)

It is the left hand that holds the right hand so that two may walk together. Or else be like Grubal and me who like to doh se doh in a circle my right arm locked with his right arm..

 

[childeye]

You took that out of context my friend...and didn't continue Joshua's full meaning...

Okay Grubal, how can that possibly out of context when it is only a few verses down?

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Okay Grubal, how can that possibly out of context when it is only a few verses down?

You didn't express the entire jest of the Scripture my friend, that's all. No big deal...

 

[glorydaz]

It is the left hand that holds the right hand so that two may walk together. Or else be like Grubal and me who like to doh se doh in a circle my right arm locked with his right arm..

I like your sense of humor.