Freewill or robotic puppetry ?

[reba]

Who is man to choose God? Which man/woman has righteousness in them to choose God? The Scriptures tell us plainly

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Some folks on both sides of this issue, get stuck on a word or 2 , the semantics, And we just cant let go of our thoughts. We are to love one another in and through or disagreements. God knows each of us, He knows our hearts, He is Thee Sovereign.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Reba, I don't see how that one leaves much wiggle room. He chose us.

Well, there's another case solved. I guess we can move onto another subject. Nothing to see here, let's just move on...

 

[childeye]

The "Chosen" of God (Israel) resisted against the will of God, and whenever they repented He forgave them. I'll give you an analogy about faith, "Say, a man owes a debt of $10,000 and he's unable to pay the debt. But a rich man comes along and offers to pay off his debt. Now, let's say the rich man tells the man in debt, all I expect out of you is, that you'll put faith in me that I will pay your debt. The poor man then excepts the rich man's proposal and puts his faith in the rich man. The rich man does exactly as he promised and pays the debt. Now, the question is, did the man in debt, play an "ACTIVE" role, in the paying of the debt???

Nice analogy Grubal. You are actually dealing with me. Thanks for the love. In essence I would say we are both interested in preaching the same thing. So I would point out that we are now only splitting hairs on this particular analogy, for there are always semantics. One could say I did nothing and this guy paid my debt and he would be saying the Truth and another could say all I had to do is believe he paid my debt and he also would be saying the Truth. The point being that the blood has no power to erase guilt if you don't believe it was paid, and either way you say it, it doesn't matter.

But this does matter. This analogy while serving your purpose falls short of the mark because this was not a rich man that paid, who had ample funds. This man was innocent, had acquired no debt and paid with his life. To understand why, leads to the end of the power of sin in man so that no longer we would accumulate debt. So it is this analogy's use of the term faith also is short of the mark in defining the full potential of the term faith, because it only uses the term to be defined as accepting something as real, while the deeper meaning is about defining faith as counting someone as trustworthy because of an unfailing Love.

And that is what I have against free choice, for that kind of faith that is a perfect trust in a perfect love is bought and paid for by an act of perfect Love. Such a trust does not come by choice but by conviction in one's soul that God is trustworthy. As unrighteousness was first founded upon distrust of God, so also was righteousness founded upon trust of God. And even as it was the devil working against mans own interests to distrust God. So also is he the same force trying to silence the Truth that sets a man free.

 

[childeye]

This is true for the "believer" but not so much with "carnal" man.

Yes because the carnal man is in ignorance of Truth, in fact actively deceived from the beginning. And he does not even know it so as to have a choice to not be carnal minded.

 

[childeye]

I know.. these things tend to go back and forth and no person is convinced of anything.. sometimes it's best to just let the special ones alone..

Wow Eventide, your statement is self defeating. For I do not think I'm special as in better than anyone else, and I don't even truly believe you think I think I am.

 

[childeye]

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Wow Reba. When I see that phrase "bound to give thanks always", I see "free from not acknowledging it is God's mercy forever" .

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Nice analogy Grubal. You are actually dealing with me. Thanks for the love. In essence I would say we are both interested in preaching the same thing. So I would point out that we are now only splitting hairs on this particular analogy, for there are always semantics. One could say I did nothing and this guy paid my debt and he would be saying the Truth and another could say all I had to do is believe he paid my debt and he also would be saying the Truth. The point being that the blood has no power to erase guilt if you don't believe it was paid, and either way you say it, it doesn't matter.

But this does matter. This analogy while serving your purpose falls short of the mark because this was not a rich man that paid, who had ample funds. This man was innocent, had acquired no debt and paid with his life. To understand why, leads to the end of the power of sin in man so that no longer we would accumulate debt. So it is this analogy's use of the term faith also is short of the mark in defining the full potential of the term faith, because it only uses the term to be defined as accepting something as real, while the deeper meaning is about defining faith as counting someone as trustworthy because of an unfailing Love.

And that is what I have against free choice, for that kind of faith that is a perfect trust in a perfect love is bought and paid for by an act of perfect Love. Such a trust does not come by choice but by conviction in one's soul that God is trustworthy. As unrighteousness was first founded upon distrust of God, so also was righteousness founded upon trust of God. And even as it was the devil working against mans own interests to distrust God. So also is he the same force trying to silence the Truth that sets a man free.

What the analogy is saying is, the rich man did ALL of the work to pay the poor mans debt. The poor man played no part in the work, he just added his faith. The true meat of the process was the WORK of the rich man. God's Grace does ALL the work, our part is to believe. A simple analogy...

 

[mondar]

Well, there's another case solved. I guess we can move onto another subject. Nothing to see here, let's just move on...

Let me repost the verse Reba quoted.....

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Reba underlined one phrase in the verse. I see the words "God" and the word "chose you to salvation."

Now you might say that the chosen one here is Christ, but then how do you read the word "you?"
You might say that this choice of God is to ministry, but how do you read the word "salvation?"

How could you possibly read the verse accurately and not draw the conclusion that God chose us to salvation?

 

[reba]

What the analogy is saying is, the rich man did ALL of the work to pay the poor mans debt. The poor man played no part in the work, he just added his faith. The true meat of the process was the WORK of the rich man. God's Grace does ALL the work, our part is to believe. A simple analogy...

Where did the poor man get his faith?

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Let me repost the verse Reba quoted.....

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Reba underlined one phrase in the verse. I see the words "God" and the word "chose you to salvation."

Now you might say that the chosen one here is Christ, but then how do you read the word "you?"
You might say that this choice of God is to ministry, but how do you read the word "salvation?"

How could you possibly read the verse accurately and not draw the conclusion that God chose us to salvation?

God desires ALL to come to repentance...

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Where did the poor man get his faith?

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Man has been given (of God) the ability to choose what he will believe. That's how we have been created...

 

[childeye]

What the analogy is saying is, the rich man did ALL of the work to pay the poor mans debt. The poor man played no part in the work, he just added his faith. The true meat of the process was the WORK of the rich man. God's Grace does ALL the work, our part is to believe. A simple analogy...

Yes it is a simple analogy. All freewill theology is quite simple. God provides a way out and we choose whether to believe it or not. Simple enough.

Consider the word evangelist. He is a persuader and for this he must be equiped to deal with the lies that supress the Truth so that a person is persuaded to believe. We therefore battle not against flesh and blood but powers of darkness in high places. This therefore is not so simple and a man does not simply choose. As we are trying to make known the powers of darkness that hold men captive, so that they may see the need of the light, we cannot at the same time be saying men are free in their wills.

Please note that scripture is full of referances to these powers that hold mens wills captive to sin. They do not regard the preaching of the Gospel as simple, for they preach a Truth able to expose all lies. It would be a lie to say there are no powers pulling mens strings in that sense.

 

[childeye]

Man has been given (of God) the ability to choose what he will believe. That's how we have been created...

So why would God give us the ability to choose not to believe Him?

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Yes it is a simple analogy. All freewill theology is quite simple. God provides a way out and we choose whether to believe it or not. Simple enough.

Consider the word evangelist. He is a persuader and for this he must be equiped to deal with the lies that supress the Truth so that a person is persuaded to believe. We therefore battle not against flesh and blood but powers of darkness in high places. This therefore is not so simple and a man does not simply choose. As we are trying to make known the powers of darkness that hold men captive, so that they may see the need of the light, we cannot at the same time be saying men are free in their wills.

Please note that scripture is full of referances to these powers that hold mens wills captive to sin. They do not regard the preaching of the Gospel as simple, for they preach a Truth able to expose all lies. It would be a lie to say there are no powers pulling mens strings in that sense.

childeye says---Consider the word evangelist. He is a persuader

Grubal---He is there to spread the good news of God's Grace.

childeye says--- We therefore battle not against flesh and blood but powers of darkness in high places. This therefore is not so simple and a man does not simply choose.

Grubal---The Holy Spirit is "greater" than all the powers of darkness combined...

childeye says---Please note that scripture is full of referances to these powers that hold mens wills captive to sin. They do not regard the preaching of the Gospel as simple, for they preach a Truth able to expose all lies. It would be a lie to say there are no powers pulling mens strings in that sense.

Grubal---Your giving way to much credit to the powers of darkness with regards to the work of the Holy Spirit to convict and strive with the hearts of men. Remember, "Greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world."

Man makes the message more difficult by his, personal interpretations, false doctrines, heresies, and Spiritual hypothesis. Man taints and, makes the Gospel more difficult than it's intended. To many, "so called scholars" and not enough, simple folk sitting in their living rooms asking for guidance from God to open up the truth of Scripture to them by the holy Spirit. Remember, where two or more are gathered there I Am...

 

[Grubal Muruch]

So why would God give us the ability to choose not to believe Him?

We have the ability. Due to the fact we are free to choose...to follow Him or remain in our sins...

 

[childeye]

=Grubal Muruch;578121]


Grubal---The Holy Spirit is "greater" than all the powers of darkness combined...

So would you agree it is fair to say that The Truth is able to change a man no matter what darkness he is in?
And you did not address this: They do not regard the preaching of the Gospel as simple, for they preach a Truth able to expose all lies. It would be a lie to say there are no powers pulling mens strings in that sense.

Grubal---Your giving way to much credit to the powers of darkness with regards to the work of the Holy Spirit to convict and strive with the hearts of men.

Did I not just say this, for they preach a Truth able to expose all lies. Also why do you say the Holy Spirit strives with the hearts of men to convict us and at the same tine say we are free to choose? Isnot one who is being assailed by the Truth convinced of lies? Then in what way is he free to choose? Does not God's convincing actually cause a man to concede rather than say he chose?

Man makes the message more difficult by his, personal interpretations, false doctrines, heresies, and Spiritual hypothesis. Man taints and, makes the Gospel more difficult than it's intended.

I would agree with you here Grubal. I would hope you do not think my claim that men are held captive through lies and therefore not free is Spiritual hypothesis or false doctrine or heresy. I am only quoting Jesus:
John 8:32

King James Version (KJV)


32And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

 

[childeye]

We have the ability. Due to the fact we are free to choose...to follow Him or remain in our sins...

With all due respect, you say any man can receive Jesus of his own freewill, because we all have the ability to do so, and that is contradicting what Jesus said here:
John 6:65

King James Version (KJV)


65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Why do you suppose you and Jesus are at odds? For if you can freely choose to believe Jesus, why not choose to believe this as I have?

 

[reba]

Do we not serve one or the other? God or satan? Is there a middle ground?

Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

When we were in sin was not satan our master? Only in Him are we free.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.


If we are free why are then made free again?

 

[ivdavid]

Eventide,

For the sake of avoiding confusion on semantics,
the word "special" is used here as an adjective - ie it describes the inherent trait of something or someone as being "distinct/different among others of a kind". Are there any disagreements here?

God chooses YOU unconditionally.

Yes, this is a work of God according to His will. To apply the word "special" here - consider the various groups of a kind in context here. There is me w.r.t. the group of all other people like me. And then there is this work of God in choosing me w.r.t. His works of choice in others. What do you find inherently different/distinct here? Is there a difference in any inherent trait in me w.r.t. others or is there a difference in God's work of choosing w.r.t. His not choosing to have mercy upon another? Since you yourself have stated that it is "unconditional" choosing, this rules out the choosing to be based on any inherent traits in me - leaving only His work of election to be distinct/different.

So what's "special" is God's work of election, regeneration and salvation - and not me in any way. Who wouldn't agree to the fact that God's work of salvation is special when compared to the absence of such a work by God? But me - I am in no way inherently different from another. You keep making the point that I am "special" as if there is some inherent difference in me w.r.t. the others - which as I've shown here, is not the case. Are you satisfied?

It is the freewill theology that implies one to be inherently better than another. And this is what I'm seeking to get clarified from you. And you simply refuse to give any direct answers - I fail to see how that can be unintentional given the time and the prompting from my side. Like I said earlier, I don't mind you telling me you do not want to reply - but this obvious evasion is not becoming of a good discussion. You raised your concerns - and I'm dealing with your concerns here. I have seen to the progression of this discussion from my side. Now, I have raised my concerns in my last post too - and I'm awaiting a progression from your side or at least the basic courtesy to say you will not be responding to them at all.

If you really don't see any issues with your theology, why can't you simply state your beliefs as they are? Why the need for all this evasion? The longer you put off replying, the more you're giving room for the implication that there are certain pitfalls in your belief framework that you're not ready to tackle as yet. And if that's really the case, I'm saying that's fine - just be open about it when you have shown your intent to participate in a discussion deriding every belief opposing yours on this matter.

And then you have the audacity to call others dishonest..

I have never called anybody dishonest. I have stated that it's reasonable to suspect that one who evades a particular point in discussion isn't being entirely honest. Calling somebody as dishonest is an outright accusation - which I have never done. Suspecting them of it is another matter - I seek clarification on the same.

I wish you to read this post as if I've stated whatever I have stated here in a matter-of-fact tone and not in a personally complaining tone. You are unhappy with moderators not permitting you to carry on a full discussion - and when you're called on one, you don't carry it on anyways. That just seems inconsistent.

Evidently you can't live with being labeled special.

I can't live with the flesh receiving any glory when it deserves none whatsoever.

 

[ivdavid]

Do we not serve one or the other? God or satan? Is there a middle ground?

A lot of people do believe there is a neutral middle ground - where works/choices are neither good nor evil - where God is indifferent to all that we do there etc.

The words "free" and "enslaved" are not used in the usual sense. One is said to be "enslaved" to sin and yet not in a manner that he loses his God-given "free" will.

I am merely stating these to save you some time on finding out the other's beliefs.