Freewill or robotic puppetry ?

[Grubal Muruch]

So would you agree it is fair to say that The Truth is able to change a man no matter what darkness he is in?
And you did not address this: They do not regard the preaching of the Gospel as simple, for they preach a Truth able to expose all lies. It would be a lie to say there are no powers pulling mens strings in that sense.



Did I not just say this, for they preach a Truth able to expose all lies. Also why do you say the Holy Spirit strives with the hearts of men to convict us and at the same tine say we are free to choose? Isnot one who is being assailed by the Truth convinced of lies? Then in what way is he free to choose? Does not God's convincing actually cause a man to concede rather than say he chose?


I would agree with you here Grubal. I would hope you do not think my claim that men are held captive through lies and therefore not free is Spiritual hypothesis or false doctrine or heresy. I am only quoting Jesus:
John 8:32

King James Version (KJV)


32And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

I'll attempt to answer your questions later this evening. Gotta go for now my friend OK.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

So would you agree it is fair to say that The Truth is able to change a man no matter what darkness he is in?
And you did not address this: mens strings in that sense.
They do not regard the preaching of the Gospel as simple, for they preach a Truth able to expose all lies. It would be a lie to say there are no powers pulling mens strings in that sense.


Did I not just say this, for they preach a Truth able to expose all lies. Also why do you say the Holy Spirit strives with the hearts of men to convict us and at the same tine say we are free to choose? Isnot one who is being assailed by the Truth convinced of lies? Then in what way is he free to choose? Does not God's convincing actually cause a man to concede rather than say he chose?






I would agree with you here Grubal. I would hope you do not think my claim that men are held captive through lies and therefore not free is Spiritual hypothesis or false doctrine or heresy. I am only quoting Jesus:
John 8:32

King James Version (KJV)


32And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

childeye---So would you agree it is fair to say that The Truth is able to change a man no matter what darkness he is in?

Grubal---I do indeed, believe whole heatedly that the Saving knowledge and application of God's Grace can change anyone...

childeye---They do not regard the preaching of the Gospel as simple, for they preach a Truth able to expose all lies. It would be a lie to say there are no powers pulling

Grubal---I would need more clarification in order to give an opinion...

childeye---Did I not just say this, for they preach a Truth able to expose all lies. Also why do you say the Holy Spirit strives with the hearts of men to convict us and at the same tine say we are free to choose? Is not one who is being assailed by the Truth convinced of lies? Then in what way is he free to choose? Does not God's convincing actually cause a man to concede rather than say he chose?

Grubal---The Holy Spirit does strive and convict men's hearts. But God does not "force" His Grace on anyone. The reason for that is quite simple, He created us to have a relationship with us. And if "free-will" were not involved, we would be nothing but "pawns" doing His bidding. He loves the people He created and wants to forgive them and show His mercy. He did that through the sacrifice of His Son, who died for our sins. (John 3:16) Man must concede that there is no other way of Salvation (at the time of his conversion) But that again is mans choice alone to make...

 

[Grubal Muruch]

With all due respect, you say any man can receive Jesus of his own freewill, because we all have the ability to do so, and that is contradicting what Jesus said here:
John 6:65

King James Version (KJV)


65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Why do you suppose you and Jesus are at odds? For if you can freely choose to believe Jesus, why not choose to believe this as I have?

childeye---And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Grubal---The context of that particular verse was relating to the Disciples. That were brought to Him by the Father. It's not speaking of, anything to deal with the message of Salvation...

childeye---Why do you suppose you and Jesus are at odds? For if you can freely choose to believe Jesus, why not choose to believe this as I have?

Grubal---I'm guessing your talking about "predestination" (if not, please correct me) We are free to receive Christ as Lord and Savior. And if I believe in free-will, then naturally I wouldn't buy into predestination...I would then be holding onto a "dual" doctrinal belief system which would not be logical...

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Do we not serve one or the other? God or satan? Is there a middle ground?

Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

When we were in sin was not satan our master? Only in Him are we free.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.


If we are free why are then made free again?

reba---If we are free why are then made free again?

Grubal---We have free-will to except or reject God's Grace. After we have received Christ as Lord and Savior and become "born again," then we become free of the power of sin and of Spiritual death... We are admonished to consider our self "dead to sin" after regeneration...

 

[childeye]

=Grubal Muruch;578215]Grubal---I do indeed, believe whole heatedly that the Saving knowledge and application of God's Grace can change anyone...

Then it is in God's power to save everyone.

childeye---They do not regard the preaching of the Gospel as simple, for they preach a Truth able to expose all lies. It would be a lie to say there are no powers pulling the strings.

Grubal---I would need more clarification in order to give an opinion...

To rephrase, isn't it true that there are powers identified as light-dark, Truth-lies that are higher powers pulling the strings of men to use your puppet analogy?

Grubal---The Holy Spirit does strive and convict men's hearts. But God does not "force" His Grace on anyone. The reason for that is quite simple, He created us to have a relationship with us. And if "free-will" were not involved, we would be nothing but "pawns" doing His bidding. He loves the people He created and wants to forgive them and show His mercy. He did that through the sacrifice of His Son, who died for our sins. (John 3:16) Man must concede that there is no other way of Salvation (at the time of his conversion)

These are your contradictions of reasoning that show freewill is a lie of the devil: Man does not need a freewill (the ability to deny God) to have a relationship with God. It is like saying I must have the option of divorce before we can marry. Or, I must give myself to God of my own accord or else He sends me to to hell.

But that again is mans choice alone to make...


This is the classic Satan's lie: And if "free-will" were not involved, we would be nothing but "pawns" doing His bidding.
So what is wrong being a "pawn" doing His bidding? And what do you suppose being the body of Christ is if we are not his pawns and he is the head? That is what Christianity is. We die so he may live in us. Can you not see through this lie? That to believe this lie, is doing Satan's bidding and being his pawn? Oh the cunning of such a lie. Did you not know at the time of conversion we are already pawns of Satan? The choice is to be a pawn either to God or Satan and we wouldn't even have that choice if God were not pleading with us to not throw ourselves into the fire.

Grubal you are wrong and misled. There's nothing wrong with being a son of God, it is an honor. You talk like the ugliest girl at the ball taking her time wondering if she should allow the most handsome man to dance with her.

But that again is mans choice alone to make...

And if the handsome guy rejects your ugly self because he found someone else who jumped at the chance to dance with him, is that your choice alone to make or did the handsome guy really have the choice all along but you were to stupid to see it? What is the sin of man? PRIDE: I must be the one who chooses you, you can't choose me.

P.S. When an rebellious devilish child says, "you can't make me", guess what happens?

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Then it is in God's power to save everyone.

To rephrase, isn't it true that there are powers identified as light-dark, Truth-lies that are higher powers pulling the strings of men to use your puppet analogy?


These are your contradictions of reasoning that show freewill is a lie of the devil: Man does not need a freewill (the ability to deny God) to have a relationship with God. It is like saying I must have the option of divorce before we can marry. Or, I must give myself to God of my own accord or else He sends me to to hell.

But that again is mans choice alone to make...


This is the classic Satan's lie: And if "free-will" were not involved, we would be nothing but "pawns" doing His bidding.
So what is wrong being a "pawn" doing His bidding? And what do you suppose being the body of Christ is if we are not his pawns and he is the head? That is what Christianity is. We die so he may live in us. Can you not see through this lie? That to believe this lie, is doing Satan's bidding and being his pawn? Oh the cunning of such a lie. Did you not know at the time of conversion we are already pawns of Satan? The choice is to be a pawn either to God or Satan and we wouldn't even have that choice if God were not pleading with us to not throw ourselves into the fire.

Grubal you are wrong and misled. There's nothing wrong with being a son of God, it is an honor. You talk like the ugliest girl at the ball taking her time wondering if she should allow the most handsome man to dance with her.


And if the handsome guy rejects your ugly self because he found someone else who jumped at the chance to dance with him, is that your choice alone to make or did the handsome guy really have the choice all along but you were to stupid to see it? What is the sin of man? PRIDE: I must be the one who chooses you, you can't choose me.

P.S. When an rebellious devilish child says, "you can't make me", guess what happens?

childeye---Then it is in God's power to save everyone.

Grubal---God did provide the possibility of Salvation to anyone who will put their trust in Christ as Lord and Savior. God created man with a free-will to choose or reject His offer...

childeye---To rephrase, isn't it true that there are powers identified as light-dark, Truth-lies that are higher powers pulling the strings of men to use your puppet analogy?

Grubal---I don't know what your talking about here???

childeye---Man does not need a freewill (the ability to deny God) to have a relationship with God.

Grubal---God, however, has chosen that particular mode by which to interact with Him...Free-will that is...

childeye---Or, I must give myself to God of my own accord or else He sends me to to hell.

Grubal---First off all, there will be no one in Hell because of their sins. They will be there because they rejected God's only provision for mercy and forgiveness and that's through the Atonement of Christ. Once a man has rejected God's plan, where does he go to find another way? Jesus said,"I am the way."

God did not create puppets in which He could stand behind the curtain and pull the strings. A puppet has no mind or free-will to do anything on it's own. I understand your view but disagree with it...

 

[childeye]

Grubal---God did provide the possibility of Salvation to anyone who will put their trust in Christ as Lord and Savior. God created man with a free-will to choose or reject His offer...

So God Gave man the power to reject Him?

Grubal---I don't know what your talking about here???

I see I will have to resort to basics. Is there a God? You know a higher power, a Godhead? The light of man? Love?

Grubal---God, however, has chosen that particular mode by which to interact with Him...Free-will that is...

Did not the scripture say Satan is the Father of sin? Not God?
childeye---Or, I must give myself to God of my own accord or else He sends me to to hell.

Grubal---First off all, there will be no one in Hell because of their sins. They will be there because they rejected God's only provision for mercy and forgiveness and that's through the Atonement of Christ.

So they are not free to deny Christ lest they go to hell?

Once a man has rejected God's plan, where does he go to find another way? Jesus said,"I am the way."

Well with a freewill he can just decide to make his own way.

God did not create puppets in which He could stand behind the curtain and pull the strings. A puppet has no mind or free-will to do anything on it's own.

You seem in denial that Satan has manipulated men's wills.

I understand your view but disagree with it...

Grubal, you don't understand my view. This is my view: We need Love to be good.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

=Grubal Muruch;578282]childeye---Then it is in God's power to save everyone.


So God Gave man the power to reject Him?
childeye---To rephrase, isn't it true that there are powers identified as light-dark, Truth-lies that are higher powers pulling the strings of men to use your puppet analogy?


I see I will have to resort to basics. Is there a God? You know a higher power, a Godhead? The light of man? Love?
childeye---Man does not need a freewill (the ability to deny God) to have a relationship with God.


Did not the scripture say Satan is the Father of sin? Not God?
childeye---Or, I must give myself to God of my own accord or else He sends me to to hell.

So they are not free to deny Christ lest they go to hell?

Well with a freewill he can just decide to make his own way.

You seem in denial that Satan has manipulated men's wills.

Grubal, you don't understand my view. This is my view: We need Love to be good.

childeye--this is a statement from you---To rephrase, isn't it true that there are powers identified as light-dark, Truth-lies that are higher powers pulling the strings of men to use your puppet analogy? You wrote this earlier and I couldn't understand what you were saying...

 

[childeye]

=Grubal Muruch;578282]childeye---Then it is in God's power to save everyone.


So God Gave man the power to reject Him?
childeye---To rephrase, isn't it true that there are powers identified as light-dark, Truth-lies that are higher powers pulling the strings of men to use your puppet analogy?


I see I will have to resort to basics. Is there a God? You know a higher power, a Godhead? The light of man? Love?
childeye---Man does not need a freewill (the ability to deny God) to have a relationship with God.


Did not the scripture say Satan is the Father of sin? Not God?
childeye---Or, I must give myself to God of my own accord or else He sends me to to hell.

So they are not free to deny Christ lest they go to hell?

childeye--this is a statement from you---To rephrase, isn't it true that there are powers identified as light-dark, Truth-lies that are higher powers pulling the strings of men to use your puppet analogy? You wrote this earlier and I couldn't understand what you were saying...

Okay Grubal, I fixed that post. As for what I said. I am saying there are spiritual powers that rule in mankind. Truth is Light and darkness is lies. These precede men in existence. God is Truth and Love and all lies serve to obscure that which is God. Hence a man cannot have a freewill until he is no longer deceived by the lies, or in otherwords until he is no longer under the powers of darkness. I am not saying we don't choose but I am saying that our choices are based upon what Truth we see and don't see. The Truth is light and the lies are darkness but posing as the light. Do you understand that?

 

[glorydaz]

Grubal---First off all, there will be no one in Hell because of their sins. They will be there because they rejected God's only provision for mercy and forgiveness and that's through the Atonement of Christ. Once a man has rejected God's plan, where does he go to find another way? Jesus said,"I am the way."

Exactly. Jesus died for the sins of the world, which is why we must be born again.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Exactly. Jesus died for the sins of the world, which is why we must be born again.

AMEN and AMEN...

 

[childeye]

Exactly. Jesus died for the sins of the world, which is why we must be born again.

Yes we know this already Glorydaz. . The point of the thread is to ask the question, does God move a man to believe in Jesus so as to set a man free From the powers of spiritual darkness or not? To put it another way. Does Satan move men to kill those who preach the Gospel so as to silience the Truth? Or, to put it another way. Do lies exist that were sowed by the devil to maipulate mankind? Or in other words. Do men need the Holy spirit because mans will is held captive to Satan through lies? Or, in other words do men need to be reborn of the Spirit of God so that our spirit is not that which exists now. Or in other words. Is there a Truth that men must see to be filled with light, or can we just choose to have this light? Do we need God or are our wills free without Him?

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Yes we know this already Glortdaz. . The point of the thread is to ask the question, does God move a man to believe in Jesus so as to set a man free From the powers of spiritual darkness or not? To put it another way. Does Satan move men to kill those who preach the Gospel so as to silience the Truth? Or, to put it another way. Do lies exist that were sowed by the devil to maipulate mankind? Or in other words. Do men need the Holy spirit because mans will is held captive to Satan through lies? Or, in other words do men need to be reborn of the Spirit of God so that our spirit is not that which exists now. Or in other words. Is there a Truth that men must see to be filled with light, or can we just choose to have this light? Do we need God or are our wills free without Him?

We ought not to be so nervous about the works of darkness and Satan. The Bible tells us that, It's a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God...God is able to cast us into Hell, Satan does not. We should make sure we're right with God, and not sit around worrying about the devil. To answer your question though, it's God the Holy Spirit that works on the hearts of men, but we must first "hear" about the Grace of God through the Bible. Remember, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God...

 

[childeye]

=Grubal Muruch;578655]We ought not to be so nervous about the works of darkness
and Satan.

Who's nervous? I just want you to admit that Satan deceives people so I can cause you to admitto the Truth that these people are not free in their wills accordingly although they think they are.

The Bible tells us that, It's a fearful thing to fall into the hands of
the living God...God is able to cast us into Hell, Satan does not. We should
make sure we're right with God, and not sit around worrying about the devil.

Well God's Apostles said they were very concerned. Even Jesus warned us. In fact scripture says we battle against spiritual powers in high places. This is what I am fighting against. While it seems you are fighting those who fight against those spiritual powers by saying they don't factor in.

To answer your question though, it's God the Holy Spirit that works on the
hearts of men, but we must first "hear" about the Grace of God through the
Bible. Remember, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God...

So it's not our freewill that sets us free in our will, is it?

 

[glorydaz]

Yes we know this already Glortdaz. . The point of the thread is to ask the question, does God move a man to believe in Jesus so as to set a man free From the powers of spiritual darkness or not? To put it another way. Does Satan move men to kill those who preach the Gospel so as to silience the Truth? Or, to put it another way. Do lies exist that were sowed by the devil to maipulate mankind? Or in other words. Do men need the Holy spirit because mans will is held captive to Satan through lies? Or, in other words do men need to be reborn of the Spirit of God so that our spirit is not that which exists now. Or in other words. Is there a Truth that men must see to be filled with light, or can we just choose to have this light? Do we need God or are our wills free without Him?

OK then, let me give this a go.

God's motives are love and a desire for fellowship. He knew, by giving mankind a free will, that man would fall, so He provided a means of escape. Satan was defeated at the cross as those who are in Christ know. Man no longer has to fear death.

"Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Man is no longer held captive, the prison doors have been opened. Walking out of the open door requires a step of faith...that small measure of faith.

Satan is given too much credit. Even God's eternal power and Godhead have been revealed to man, so he is without excuse.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Satan even gets credit for man's own lusts and pride.

"For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world."

Of course we need God, but we freely choose whether to accept His gift or not.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Who's nervous? I just want you to admit that Satan deceives people so I can cause you to admitto the Truth that these people are not free in their wills accordingly although they think they are.

Well God's Apostles said they were very concerned. Even Jesus warned us. In fact scripture says we battle against spiritual powers in high places. This is what I am fighting against. While it seems you are fighting those who fight against those spiritual powers by saying they don't factor in.

So it's not our freewill that sets us free in our will, is it?

childeye--- so I can cause you to admit the Truth that these people are not free in their wills accordingly although they think they are.

Grubal--- We are ALL "free in our wills to place our "mustard seed" faith in Christ are only Savior and Lord...That's all I'll admit about that my friend...

childeye---While it seems you are fighting those who fight against those spiritual powers by saying they don't factor in.

Grubal---It's not that they don't factor into the equation. But, the Bible tells us,"1 John 4:4-- You are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Instead fighting the forces of darkness, make sure your a child of God first. Nothing not even the forces of darkness can keep you away from God's Grace.

childeye---So it's not our freewill that sets us free in our will, is it?[/QUOTE]

Grubal---Our free-will allows us to choose or reject the Word of God. Our free-will does not have any "special" significant power of it's own...other than to make choices in life...

 

[reba]

are sinners free are the addicts free?
The creepy abusers are they free?
Are Christians free?

Using the title i would rather be a puppet of Christ than a puppet of satan or of man.

Is there something else besides Good ( God) Evil (satan) Is there a third, fifth, tenth realm?

We are free in Christ

Please I use the word sinners knowing we Christians sin but i dont have a better word.. I trust you to understand the difference between Christian and sinner...

 

[glorydaz]

are sinners free are the addicts free?
The creepy abusers are they free?
Are Christians free?

Using the title i would rather be a puppet of Christ than a puppet of satan or of man.

Is there something else besides Good ( God) Evil (satan) Is there a third, fifth, tenth realm?

We are free in Christ

Please I use the word sinners knowing we Christians sin but i dont have a better word.. I trust you to understand the difference between Christian and sinner...

Actually, we are free to choose, and we're told to choose life.

"I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:"

"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

Some refuse.

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Number 21:8-9 illustrates it perfectly. We look to Christ and we live. We refuse and we don't.

And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

 

[reba]

I am reading you believed you were free when you were a sinner? Is that what you believe? or did i miss something?

Words on paper without the the use of eye contact can be hard to grasp.

 

[childeye]

=glorydaz;578716]OK then, let me give this a go.


God's motives are love and a desire for fellowship. He knew, by giving
mankind a free will, that man would fall, so He provided a means of escape.
Satan was defeated at the cross as those who are in Christ know. Man no longer
has to fear death.

Respectfully you are equating freewill with sentience. Freewill is defined as a choice made without any outside entities restraining or compeling such as destiny or Divine will. So you're saying mankind had a freewill to fall and was not deceived by Satan? That love is not necessary for a man to be good?
Man is no longer held captive, you say. Hence you have already acknowledged that men's wills were compromised. The prison doors have been opened, you say. Yet how is it we were ever in prison if we were free in our wills as you say. Walking out of the open door requires a step of faith...that small measure of faith you say, so how is it a man could choose freely without something to put forth his faith into? Did not this Christ come from God? Moreover is not the carnal mind unable to see spiritual things without the intervention of God?

Satan is given too much credit you say yet, Jesus said that he came to destroy the works of Satan and that there would be many deceived by wolves in sheeps clothing. Is he giving Satan too much credit? And Paul the Apostle said that he was afraid Satan would beguile believers even as Eve was beguiled. Is Paul giving Satan too much credit? John the apostle said that Satan would deceive the whole world. Is he giving Satan too much credit? So I as I believe in what all these who know more than I, why should we brush off so lightly what they instructed us to be on guard for?

Even God's eternal power and Godhead have been revealed to man, so he is without excuse.

I submit that you misrepresent scripture if you are saying this is proof that men have not been deceived. Even Satan believes in the Godhead.

Satan even gets credit for man's own lusts and pride.

Yes I agree, that is very true even as Jesus said, "the lusts of your father you will do".

Of course we need God, but we freely choose whether to accept His gift or not.

Scripture does not say that. Jesus does not lie when he says you must be taught by God to come to him. He also says you must have the love of God abiding in your heart to believe in him. Respectfully I must ask you why everything you are saying is contrary to what the Christ and his apostles said? Do you even care? I say this with concern.