From Foreknowledge to Knowledge

[DivineNames]

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But this creates a difficult problem for our theology, doesn't it? Because, if we also believe that in the end some creatures are going to be tormented forever and ever for their sins, and if we believe that the sins they commit are necessarily part of the historical timeline that God created, don't we have to conclude that God has ordained than some will suffer eternal agony for things that He Himself is in the final analysis responsible for?

Are you comfortable with this conclusion, or do you have some way of avoiding it?

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I am very comfortable with it. Why aren't you? God created it, and he can do as he pleases with it. God is righteous, just, merciful, full of grace, loving, etc.

Solo, you are comfortable with the conclusion that God is responsible for evil? I do believe that is heresy!!

 

[DivineNames]

We can do absolutely nothing righteous but seek after God while he draws us to himself. He draws us to himself by the guidence of the Holy Spirit through His Son Jesus Christ. God does all of this for each person. When God reveals himself to each one of us, we come to him in the Light that he has provided, or we reject him for the darkness where we live. We end up exactly where we choose to be, with God for eternity or away from God for eternity.

But aren't you denying that we have any choice? That certainly seems to be the issue being discussed. Are you contradicting yourself?

 

[Duder]

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[Duder]

Solo, you are comfortable with the conclusion that God is responsible for evil? I do believe that is heresy!!

Greetings, DN -

I would not go so far as to say that Solo's point of view is a heresy, but it does seem extremely problematic to me, in view of some of the things we believe about the nature of God, i.e., that He is infinitely just, loving, good, etc.

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[JM]

On the other hand, when someone alleges that my view of divine sovereignty makes God the author of sin, my first reaction tends to be, "So what?" Christians who disagree with me stupidly chant, "But he makes God the author of sin, he makes God the author of sin…." However, a description does not amount to an argument or objection, and I have never come across a half-decent explanation as to what’s wrong with God being the author of sin in any theological or philosophical work written by anybody from any perspective. Whether or not God is the author of sin, there is no biblical or rational problem with him being the author of sin.

I echo the same statement, so what?

Of course, to "author" the sin implies far more control over the sinner and the sin than to be the tempter. Whereas the devil or lust may be the tempter, and you might be the sinner, it is God who directly and completely controls both the tempter and the sinner, and the relationship between them. And although God is not himself the tempter, he deliberately and sovereignly sends evil spirits to tempt (1 Kings 22:19–23) and to torment (1 Samuel 16:14–23, 18:10, 19:9). But in all of this, God is righteous by definition.

Our passage from Isaiah 45 is one example:

I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God….I am the LORD, and there is no other. I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things….

"Does the clay say to the potter, ‘What are you making?’ Does your work say, ‘He has no hands’?

"Woe to him who says to his father, ‘What have you begotten?’ or to his mother, ‘What have you brought to birth?’"

In other words, "I am the only God. Whether it is prosperity or disaster, I am the doer of all these things  there is not another God to do them. Dare you question me about this? Who are you to object?"

Please, please read Vincent Cheung, a modern day reformer!
http://www.vincentcheung.com/2005/05/31 ... or-of-sin/

 

[Solo]

I have absolutely no reservations about God's entire scheme of things. Whatever he deems is necessary so be it.

Hi, Solo -

I agree with you! :D

Whatever God wants to do must be the very best thing. What I have reservations about is this notion we have been considering: the idea that what God wants to do is to relegate people to the flames because of things for which they were not responsible.

Do you think that is the sort of thing God would want to do?

God created it, and he can do as he pleases with it.

That is true.

And he doesn't need your approval.

I did not express approval. I expressed agreement with your opinion that God can do as He pleases.

We can do absolutely nothing righteous but seek after God while he draws us to himself. He draws us to himself by the guidence of the Holy Spirit through His Son Jesus Christ. God does all of this for each person. When God reveals himself to each one of us, we come to him in the Light that he has provided, or we reject him for the darkness where we live. We end up exactly where we choose to be, with God for eternity or away from God for eternity.

All of that is true. However, it really does not touch upon the issue at hand. The question is, can humans praise God for His justice? I think you would agree that they can. And if this is so, then it must follow that humans know justice when they see it.

God is just and man should praise God for his justice.

Most of us would say that causing a person to suffer on account of something for which they are not responsible would be the opposite of justice. Perhaps you have a different view and think causing those not responsible to suffer might be just.

All mankind is unworthy based on their sinful condition and all mankind must pay the penalty for their sin. Every man, woman, and child is guilty of sin and God's justice demands payment for their sin. Jesus is taking the place for all those who believe in Him to pay the penalty for their sin. Others reject Jesus' payment and stand proud to reject God or take the chance and pay their sin debt on their own. .
I have been hoping you would address this point and tell us what you think about it.

[quote:0df55]Man is condemned already from birth.

If the central idea of JM's OP is correct - that God created the whole future history of the universe, such that none of us can depart from the events written in that history - then God is ultimately responsible for man being born condemned. And so my question remains unanswered. Can it be just to cause people to suffer when they are not responsible?
You just might have to have faith and trust that God knows exactly what he is doing. If not you are taking a chance, second guessing him. My God knows all and has all in control. I have no question of his ability to accomplish whatsoever he began. I suspect that if mankind would submit to God's sovereignty, they would understand that their position on this earth is only important in how they play a role in God's plan. God will not do anything that is unjust. God will not lie. God will not change, he is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.



.[/quote:0df55]

 

[D46]

If this is true, presumably there is a coherent argument to explain God's seeming lack of foreknowledge as expressed in such texts as 2 Kings 20. Can we receive an explanation of how this text works with a belief that God fully knows the future?

If one were to read 2 Kings 20 in it's entirety, I submit it probably would have been better for Hezekiah to have died than to be given that extra 15 years whereby he blew it by loosing all.

2 Kings 20:16-18 And Isaiah said unto Hezekiah, Hear the word of the LORD. Behold, the days come, that all that is in thine house, and that which thy fathers have laid up in store unto this day, shall be carried into Babylon: nothing shall be left, saith the LORD. And of thy sons that shall issue from thee, which thou shalt beget, shall they take away; and they shall be eunuchs in the palace of the king of Babylon.

Did God know that Hezekiah would cry and carry on about dying and plead with God to spare him? Of course he did. Did God also know that he would harken to Hezekiah's prayer and give him more time? Yes-but, he also knew what his outcome would be as well. God is all knowing, omniscient and knows exactly what we will ask before we ask it. Too often we get what we ask for all to our demise and sometimes, our destruction. Do the just suffer? Read the book of Job and come to your own conclusions. I think scripture bears that out. Does it rain on the just and the unjust? Again...

Matthew5:45 (KJV) That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Isaiah 65:24 (KJV) And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.

 

[JM]

To the question, "what is justice" Dagg wrote: "Justice consists in giving to every one his due." sec. IX -JUSTICE Manual of Theology.

What is due to mankind [from God]?

 

[Duder]

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God is just and man should praise God for his justice.

Hi, Solo -

That assumes, of course, that humans know what justice is, and that they discover God to be, in fact, just. And we would presume that he would never be seen taking some sort of unjust action, such as sending people to the flames who are not responsible for their deeds.

All mankind is unworthy based on their sinful condition...

I agree with that. However, the theory you are defending explains their sinful condition by making God ultimately responsible for it. This is the key point that you have not faced for several posts now.

. . . and all mankind must pay the penalty for their sin.

Why?

If your theory is correct, then they are not responsible for their sin. Justice does not punish people who are not responsible. God is just. The logical ends are not fitting together here.

Every man, woman, and child is guilty of sin and God's justice demands payment for their sin.

Why?

Suppose you have a certain creature under your power and control. You set things up so that this creature can take one and only one certain course of action. How will you justify demanding payment from your creature for taking the single course of action you made available to it?

Jesus is taking the place for all those who believe in Him to pay the penalty for their sin. Others reject Jesus' payment and stand proud to reject God or take the chance and pay their sin debt on their own. .

I agree with that! :D

You just might have to have faith and trust that God knows exactly what he is doing. If not you are taking a chance, second guessing him.

Yes, we must trust God. I am not second-guessing Him. I am testing the theory offered in the OP and the one you are defending. BIG difference!

My God knows all and has all in control. I have no question of his ability to accomplish whatsoever he began. I suspect that if mankind would submit to God's sovereignty, they would understand that their position on this earth is only important in how they play a role in God's plan.

Amen!

God will not do anything that is unjust. God will not lie. God will not change, he is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

All true. But if He is just, can we think he will send to the flames those not responsible?


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[DivineNames]

On the other hand, when someone alleges that my view of divine sovereignty makes God the author of sin, my first reaction tends to be, "So what?" Christians who disagree with me stupidly chant, "But he makes God the author of sin, he makes God the author of sin…." However, a description does not amount to an argument or objection, and I have never come across a half-decent explanation as to what’s wrong with God being the author of sin in any theological or philosophical work written by anybody from any perspective. Whether or not God is the author of sin, there is no biblical or rational problem with him being the author of sin.

I echo the same statement, so what?

What did you previously say?

So the claim is that some Calvinists will acknowledge that God is the, "author of everything evil". Is this true? Can anyone comment on this?

Any Calvinists who makes such admittance is in error.

I've never heard of that either.

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... c&start=30


"I've never heard of that either."

And now you are saying, "So what?". :D

Thanks for proving the claim to be true. Some Calvinsts will indeed acknowledge that God is the, "author of everything evil".

 

[DivineNames]

I agree with that. However, the theory you are defending explains their sinful condition by making God ultimately responsible for it. This is the key point that you have not faced for several posts now.

Solo presumably came into the discussion without having thought about the issue, or perhaps even knowing what the issue is about.

 

[DivineNames]

I echo the same statement, so what?

One issue is that your position destroys the free will defence against evil. You are doing some very serious damage to Christian theodicy.

How would you address this point?

 

[Drew]

2 Kings 20
http://www.carm.org/open/2Kings20_1-6.htm

This material simply does not address the problem that TanNinety and I (and maybe others) have raised. Look at the following quote from this site:

"From all eternity God knew exactly what was going to happen and had planned to "change His mind" when Hezekiah prayed. This means that God works in real time and purposely responds to the prayers of His people and then appears to change His mind when people pray. This is one of the points of the text -- that God hears our prayers and responds to them. We are not robots and God is not inflexible. Yet, at the same time, God knows all things (1 John 3:20; John 21:17). So, even though God knows what will ultimately happen, that doesn't mean He can't respond to our prayers, which is part part of His plan, that brings about what will ultimately happen."

This is actually a statement that I would have no trouble with - if it weren't for statements like "you will not recover" as per the 2 Kings 20 text.

The above quote actually represents a possible state of affairs - I believe that there is indeed no logical problem with the idea that God can both respond to our prayers and know the future fully. No space to defend that assertion right now, but I will try to do so, if asked.

However - and this is the point that no one still has refuted - the 2 Kings 20 text has God saying "you will not recover" (verse 1) and then having Hezekiah, in point of fact, recover (v. 7 I believe). Is God telling a falsehood? It seems that he must be so doing, unless He does not fully know the future. You guys need to face this issue - the site JM quotes does not even touch this problem.

 

[JM]

Quote:

One must construct an argument showing this [if God is the author of sin, how does it make Christianity false] by citing established premises that necessarily lead to the conclusion that Christianity would be false if God is the author of sin.

What is this argument?

And what passage of Scripture does it contradict?

And

That is, if God directly causes you to sin, it does make him the "author" of sin (at least in the sense that people usually use the expression), but the "sinner" or "wrong-doer" is still you.


If Satan causes you to sin, is Satan the author of sin and you're let off the hook, or do you pay the price for sinning?

 

[DivineNames]

If Satan causes you to sin, is Satan the author of sin and you're let off the hook, or do you pay the price for sinning?

This looks like a weak analogy, and ambiguity in the word "cause".

Where Satan "causes" someone to sin, this may well be understood as a free creature seeking to have an evil influence on another free creature. In such a circumstance, we generally hold both to be accountable. The person "influenced", we hold accountable as we assume that they have freedom to resist temptation.

 

[DivineNames]

That is, if God directly causes you to sin, it does make him the "author" of sin (at least in the sense that people usually use the expression), but the "sinner" or "wrong-doer" is still you.

Lets imagine that God is the author of sin. That means that God is the author of every act of murder and torture, and rape and child abuse, and sodomy and bestiality etc. Every sex crime, and every form of sexual perversion, is "directly caused" by God. Now if every act of child abuse, for example, is "directly caused" by God, can you think of a good reason why God would do this? If it is morally good somehow, if it achieves some goodness, can you provide a reasonable explanation here?

 

[JM]

These questions are answered in the link I provided.

 

[DivineNames]

These questions are answered in the link I provided.

Are you talking about-

The Author of Sin, by Vincent Cheung.
http://www.vincentcheung.com/2005/05/31 ... or-of-sin/

??

If so, the link doesn't answer the question. The attitude of Cheung, is that God can do whatever he likes, and we shouldn't be asking questions. So Cheung obviously hasn't provided a reasonable explanation as to why a morally perfect God directly causes all moral evil.


By the way, I did provide an argument against your position. See the thread, "Argument against Calvinist determinism".

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=21763

Can you answer it?

 

[DivineNames]

The attitude of Cheung, is that God can do whatever he likes, and we shouldn't be asking questions.

This kind of attitude really is moronic. And if you accept it, then there is nothing to stop a "morally perfect" God from being a liar, and burning all the Christians in hell!

JM, if God can do whatever he likes, how do you know God isn't a liar? How do you know that God isn't going to burn you in hell? If he did, would God be perfectly good?

 

[Solo]

The attitude of Cheung, is that God can do whatever he likes, and we shouldn't be asking questions.

This kind of attitude really is moronic. And if you accept it, then there is nothing to stop a "morally perfect" God from being a liar, and burning all the Christians in hell!

JM, if God can do whatever he likes, how do you know God isn't a liar? How do you know that God isn't going to burn you in hell? If he did, would God be perfectly good?

Speaking of moronic.........................