From Foreknowledge to Knowledge

[2NCBrother]

The bible gives us clues to the creations of time!

With regard to the question on time....God established time when He said "let light be". This was required to hold the angels acountable to their actions. For a look at our attempt at understanding the scriptures that explain this please visit our section called "The Munrose Hypothesis - A Brief History of Light. I believe you will find it quite fascinating!

http://www.truebiblecode.com/understanding234.html

 

[TanNinety]

I think it is a matter of “cause and effectâ€Â.
Are free will actions the cause and foreknowledge the effect?
or
Is foreknowledge the cause and pseudo-free will actions the effect?

If foreknowledge is the cause then it is nothing but orchestrated design of actions ..where the actors (pseudo-free will agents) are just unaware of these actions but perform them inline with the foreknowledge. Hence pseudo-free will, where there is not actually any “free†will but just “ignorance†of the already pre-ordained action.

If actions are the cause and the foreknowledge a result, how exactly does one obtain this foreknowledge? Can a result precede a cause? Isn’t that like expecting God to be able to make a circle with 4 corners? Illogicality?

I think knowledge precedes and can help form foreknowledge.
I can say through a wire of resistance 2 ohms, if I apply a 6v. voltage I can create a 2 amp electric current. The actual “experiment†did not have to take place for me to know that it would result in a 2 amp current, but by my knowledge of electricity. Neither this knowledge predestine the 2 amp current when the experiment is actually carried out. This foreknowledge of 2 amps was based on my knowledge about voltage, resistance and current..

Taking that knowledge to a grandeur scale.

Everything in existence has its existence in God. Out of God nothing exists. So God having knowledge of Himself can with super natural certainty deduce His foreknowledge of His creation. This foreknowledge hence being derived from knowledge does not derive from the “actual actions†which are the cause. Hence even though this foreknowledge precedes the “cause†it is not illogical nor has it pre-determined the action itself?

I need to give it more thought.

 

[Drew]

I think it is a matter of “cause and effectâ€Â.
Are free will actions the cause and foreknowledge the effect?
or
Is foreknowledge the cause and pseudo-free will actions the effect?

If foreknowledge is the cause then it is nothing but orchestrated design of actions ..where the actors (pseudo-free will agents) are just unaware of these actions but perform them inline with the foreknowledge. Hence pseudo-free will, where there is not actually any “free†will but just “ignorance†of the already pre-ordained action.

If actions are the cause and the foreknowledge a result, how exactly does one obtain this foreknowledge? Can a result precede a cause? Isn’t that like expecting God to be able to make a circle with 4 corners? Illogicality?

I think knowledge precedes and can help form foreknowledge.
I can say through a wire of resistance 2 ohms, if I apply a 6v. voltage I can create a 2 amp electric current. The actual “experiment†did not have to take place for me to know that it would result in a 2 amp current, but by my knowledge of electricity. Neither this knowledge predestine the 2 amp current when the experiment is actually carried out. This foreknowledge of 2 amps was based on my knowledge about voltage, resistance and current..

Taking that knowledge to a grandeur scale.

Everything in existence has its existence in God. Out of God nothing exists. So God having knowledge of Himself can with super natural certainty deduce His foreknowledge of His creation. This foreknowledge hence being derived from knowledge does not derive from the “actual actions†which are the cause. Hence even though this foreknowledge precedes the “cause†it is not illogical nor has it pre-determined the action itself?

I need to give it more thought.

Interesting post, TanNinety (or should I call you "infinity" - if I remember my trig, that is the value of the tangent of 90 degrees).

I think that "actions are the cause and foreknowledge is the result". I believe that man has a certain degree of free will and therefore reject the idea that God's foreknowledge "causes" my actions (at the least the ones in respect to which I am free).

Given this perspective of mine, I think that the statement "knowledge precedes and can help form foreknowledge" is true but only to a limited extent. If there were not (partially) free agents running around in the world (such as you and I, on my view), then I would accept this idea without reservations. In other words, if the universe unfolded in a fully deterministic manner with no free variables, then God's knowledge of the laws of physics would effectively "form" his foreknowledge as you suggest.

As you may have inferred from other threads, I am quite sympathetic to open theism and therefore do not necessarily believe that God has exhaustive foreknowledge.

However, lets suppose I adopted the view that God indeed fully knows the future. Under such circumstances, I would probably answer the question: "How does God 'get' this foreknowledge" by appealing to the idea that God is not "bound" in time. I have not thought about this very much, though.

 

[TanNinety]

Hey Drew, you certainly got it right. The english translation of my first name is infinity so I chose Tan(90) as my nick.

As you may have inferred from other threads, I am quite sympathetic to open theism and therefore do not necessarily believe that God has exhaustive foreknowledge.

I have to agree with you. The free-will agents do necessitate certain gaps in the foreknowledge hence making it not totally exhaustive. The characteristic of the free-will agent is such that the result can be assessed but not with entire certainty in all cases. But as the free-will agent is examined in time it becomes more predictable being knowledge can be gathered about it.

However, lets suppose I adopted the view that God indeed fully knows the future. Under such circumstances, I would probably answer the question: "How does God 'get' this foreknowledge" by appealing to the idea that God is not "bound" in time. I have not thought about this very much, though.

True. The only way God’s foreknowledge (result) can be exhaustive without the actions (cause) preceding is by God transcending time, me thinks. But that opens up another can of worms. If God is beyond time He has to exist in past present and future as “His presentâ€Â. Which would mean He has to be flooding the earth the same time as He is living with us in the new earth. To me time is one of such entities as darkness. God said “light be†and there was light. But did He have to create “darkness†before He created light or did darkness exist as the absence if light and hence not require creation? If that was so could time have been just a by product and not an actual creation?

I haven’t thought about God transcending time much either but what I have thought leaves more questions than it answers.