From Foreknowledge to Knowledge

[JM]

For God, “there is no distinctions of time†[Tertullian, Against Marcion]. Everything that exists or existed or will exist God is seen all at the same time. Like the way we view a time line with a beginning and end, God sees everything in this way, without exception.

Augustine wrote: “For what is foreknowledge if not knowledge of future events? But can anything be future to God, who surpasses all time? For if God’s knowledge includes these very things themselves, they are not future to him but present; and for this reason we should no longer speak of God’s foreknowledge but simply of God’s knowledge.†Agreeing with Augustine, Gregory the Great wrote: “Whatever is past and future to us is immediately present in his sight.â€Â

We as finite man see time as moving forward, but for God it’s always present. It’s a human idea to think that God is affected by time, it’s also a human idea to separate God’s omniscience from His all knowing foreknowledge and mix it with humanity’s nostalgic thinking. The Scriptures fully teach the omniscience of God as antecede to creation. [http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Attributes/attrib_04.htm]Without understanding this, without fully recognising God’s foreknowledge as being truly preceding creation we cannot come to terms with divine omniscience. I found in the works of Tertullian [Against Marcion] that attempts to harmonize human freewill with God’s omniscience, the tendency is to over emphasize human freewill above God’s omniscience. For God to foreknow anything, man’s will for example, He would have to know before the will is made because God is omniscient. For man to be created with a will, God would have to know what will to give man, this is also based on His omniscience. God’s wisdom doesn’t depend on human will, human will depends upon God’s infinite wisdom.

Augustine wrote, “If foreknowledge does not foreknow things that are certain to happen, it is nothing at all.â€Â

In essences, since God foreknows the will of man [fallen and dead in sin, or absolutely free to choose] Gods foreknowledge determines what that will it is going to be. The will comes into being because God has foreknown it. Our wills are therefore not limited but have as much power as God wants us to have, and have with certainty. Whatever the will does, it does as a matter of foreknowledge. Since time doesn’t exist for God, foreknowledge then becomes [strictly speaking], knowledge for God knows before, during and after it happens…just as we view a time line.

Peace,

JM

 

[Drew]

If this is true, presumably there is a coherent argument to explain God's seeming lack of foreknowledge as expressed in such texts as 2 Kings 20. Can we receive an explanation of how this text works with a belief that God fully knows the future?

 

[JM]

2 Kings 20
http://www.carm.org/open/2Kings20_1-6.htm

 

[Duder]

.

Greetings, JM -

This is a very fascinating question. One would think, wouldn't one, that if God were the greatest being we could conceive, then He would know everything there is to know? And if He has perfect and complete knowledge about the current state of affairs in heaven and on earth, then He predicts with perfect accuracy what will happen in the future. The entire timeline of cosmic history, past and future, is laid out before His gaze all in one go, as it were.

Moreover, if we consider God as the creator of the universe, and if He knows the whole history of that universe even as He creates it, then it is difficult to see how we could avoid saying that God has direct responsibility for everything that happens, everywhere and always.

But this creates a difficult problem for our theology, doesn't it? Because, if we also believe that in the end some creatures are going to be tormented forever and ever for their sins, and if we believe that the sins they commit are necessarily part of the historical timeline that God created, don't we have to conclude that God has ordained than some will suffer eternal agony for things that He Himself is in the final analysis responsible for?

Are you comfortable with this conclusion, or do you have some way of avoiding it?

.

 

[Solo]

.

Greetings, JM -

This is a very fascinating question. One would think, wouldn't one, that if God were the greatest being we could conceive, then He would know everything there is to know? And if He has perfect and complete knowledge about the current state of affairs in heaven and on earth, then He predicts with perfect accuracy what will happen in the future. The entire timeline of cosmic history, past and future, is laid out before His gaze all in one go, as it were.

Moreover, if we consider God as the creator of the universe, and if He knows the whole history of that universe even as He creates it, then it is difficult to see how we could avoid saying that God has direct responsibility for everything that happens, everywhere and always.

But this creates a difficult problem for our theology, doesn't it? Because, if we also believe that in the end some creatures are going to be tormented forever and ever for their sins, and if we believe that the sins they commit are necessarily part of the historical timeline that God created, don't we have to conclude that God has ordained than some will suffer eternal agony for things that He Himself is in the final analysis responsible for?

Are you comfortable with this conclusion, or do you have some way of avoiding it?

.

I am very comfortable with it. Why aren't you? God created it, and he can do as he pleases with it. God is righteous, just, merciful, full of grace, loving, etc.

I trust him and his will, and shake my head at man's finite understanding or lack of understanding as it is.

 

[TanNinety]

From JM’s carm link: We see here an example of God listening to the prayer of someone and then apparently changing His mind about a course of action that He said He would do. Does God actually change His mind?

This carm link doesn’t even address the 2 kings scripture that Drew has put forth, at all.

Please get the premise of the argument right. God prophesied through isaiah to hezekiah that “you are going to die, ..you will not recoverâ€Â.

God never had hezekiah’s death in His foreknowledge if your original post were true. Now God prophesied against this foreknowledge of hezekiah’s prayer and recovery and said “you will die ..not recover†which is falsehood.

According to your original post and 2 kings 20:1 About that time hezekiah became deathly ill, and the prophet isaiah son of amoz went to visit him. He gave the king this message: "This is what the Lord says: Set your affairs in order, for you are going to die. You will not recover from this illness."

Got had just lied to hezekiah according to your post because God knew all along that hezekiah would pray and God will heal hezekiah and that he would recover.

Carm link doesn’t even address this issue. We are NOT talking about God changing His mind or PRETEND to change His mind. Your view reduces God to putting up an act for humanity? There is no true relationship that you can build with such a parent who puts up an ACT of being a father.

Please address the issue posted ..not burn down strawman to prove your point.

 

[JM]

I believe the fall was part of God's plan, and that God works all things after His own will [eph. 1], I trust God.

Christ was “foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world,†1 Peter 1:20. Paul speaks of “the eternal purpose†which was purposed in Jesus Christ our Lord, Ephesians 3:11. In Hebrews 13:20 “the blood of an eternal covenant," And since the plan of redemption is thus traced back into eternity, the plan to permit man to fall must be found there as well.

Assuming man is control of his own salvation, God then creates man knowing that most of humanity will reject His offer and He still creates them anyways, knowing full well that He'll send them to hell. Is God any less wicked? He still created them with the understanding some will suffer eternal agony, is God less wicked?



http://www.vincentcheung.com/2005/05/31 ... or-of-sin/

 

[JM]

God prophesied through isaiah to hezekiah that “you are going to die, ..you will not recoverâ€Â.

Did Hezekiah die? You're ignoring "For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things" and "Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee." Do you doubt the Scriptures? How do you understand the clear teaching of Scripture, that being, God knows everything?

What you and Drew suggest is incompatible with the inerrancy Scripture.

The case of Hezekiah's sickness in 2 Kings 20 is supplemented by the parallel passages in 2 Chronicles 32:24-26 and Isaiah 38:1-22. These passages reveal that by the 14th year of his reign, Hezekiah yielded to pride in spite of God's goodness to him and to Judah, protecting them from the disaster that befell Samaria through the Assyrian conquest. To deal with this defect, God announced to Hezekiah that if he continued in his self-sufficiency, his life was at an end, for no human power could overcome his deadly terminal disease. Only by a miracle could his life be continued. So Hezekiah "repented of the pride of his heart" (2 Chron. 32:26) and God graciously extended his life by 15 years: "I will heal you" (2 Kings 20:5) He said and the rest of the passage deals with the confirmation of God's miraculous power that would apply both to Hezekiah's personal life and to the protection of Judah from Assyrian attacks (2 Kings 20:6; Isaiah 38:6). This is articulated very clearly in Hezekiah's song recorded for us in Isaiah 38:10-20. That this whole process does not reflect a change of mind on God's part is manifest from the fact that in that same fourteenth year of Hezekiah's reign, God had promised him at least three more years of life (2 Kings 9:29) and that the birth of his son Manasseh, necessary for the fulfillment of God's promise to David ( 2 Sam. 1:12-16), also took place 3 years later in the seventeenth year of his reign (2 Kings 21:1).

http://www.founders.org

 

[TanNinety]

God prophesied through isaiah to hezekiah that “you are going to die, ..you will not recoverâ€Â.

Did Hezekiah die?

Do you listen to yourself? ..you see that God prophesied hezekiah’s death ..then you ask a question did hezekiah die ..well the answer is NO ..now how can you make this answer sit right with 2 kings 20:1? where God told hezekiah he WAS going to die?

You're ignoring "For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things" and "Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee." Do you doubt the Scriptures? How do you understand the clear teaching of Scripture, that being, God knows everything?

This is how:
Psalm 139:1
O Lord, you have examined my heart
and know everything about me.

That is how God knows our heart and everything about us because He examines my/our heart as the scripture clearly shows. Not because of your eternal foreknowledge theology.

When God created the heaven and earth and the creatures there in ..does your book of Genesis read “and God knew it was good†or “and God saw that it was good�

You still haven’t answered the 2 kings 20 scripture yourself!

 

[Solo]

JM,
The ignorance of God's Word does not justify an unbelief in God's transcendent character, and his creation has vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor. Some were created for vessels of dishonor, and that they will be. There is no use trying to convince the lame that they can walk, for it is their own unbelief that has them in bondage.
Solo

 

[TanNinety]

The case of Hezekiah's sickness in 2 Kings 20 is supplemented by the parallel passages in 2 Chronicles 32:24-26 and Isaiah 38:1-22. These passages reveal that by the 14th year of his reign, Hezekiah yielded to pride in spite of God's goodness to him and to Judah, protecting them from the disaster that befell Samaria through the Assyrian conquest. To deal with this defect, God announced to Hezekiah that if he continued in his self-sufficiency, his life was at an end, for no human power could overcome his deadly terminal disease.

That is misleading at best. God did not announce “no human power could overcome his deadly terminal diseaseâ€Â. That is at best the foundation of the strawman you are going to build.

Only by a miracle could his life be continued.

God never declared this. Adding to the bible are we?

So Hezekiah "repented of the pride of his heart"

Your previous statement is false so this cannot be deduced as truth.

Thus you burn a strawman ..and not deal with the issue at hand.

JM,
The ignorance of God's Word does not justify an unbelief in God's transcendent character, and his creation has vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor. Some were created for vessels of dishonor, and that they will be. There is no use trying to convince the lame that they can walk, for it is their own unbelief that has them in bondage.
Solo

Make up your mind solo. Is it because we were MADE to be vessels of dishonor or is it because our OWN unbelief? If we were MADE this way this unbelief is NOT OUR OWN but what God has put in us ..lame are the people who give contradictory statements. Demonstrably yours.

 

[Duder]

.

I am very comfortable with it. Why aren't you?

Hello, Solo -

Please look again at what I asked JM:

........."...don't we have to conclude that God has ordained
.........than some will suffer eternal agony for things that
.........He Himself is in the final analysis responsible for?
.........Are you comfortable with this conclusion, or do you
.........have some way of avoiding it?"


Are you certain you have no reservations about this? And do you really not know why some would have reservations about it?

God created it, and he can do as he pleases with it.

That is true.

God is righteous, just, merciful, full of grace, loving, etc.

That is true also. But this is the part that raises the problem. Causing people to suffer for things they are ultimately not responsible for is the opposite of what we understand justice to mean. Now, you may argue that humans really do not comprehend the meaning of justice, so what appears unjust to us will turn out to be just. But if it is true that we do not know what justice is, then one wonders why God would expect us to act justly.

It is my opinion that God is good, and that He can always be counted upon to act justly. Moreover, I believe that humans are capable of seeing that God is just. We can look at what He does, and say, "I recocognize that those things which God does are just, and so I conclude that God is a just God."

In other words, I think humans do know what justice is. They know it when they see it. I think God gave them this ability. If humans did not know what justice is, then they would be incapable of praising God in an honest and meaningful way for His justice.

So naturally, a problem arises if we entertain an idea that seems to have God doing things that are the opposite of just, as we understand it. And causing people to suffer for things they are not responsible for is the opposite of what we take justice to mean, is it not?

I trust him and his will, and shake my head at man's finite understanding or lack of understanding as it is.

Are you saying that humans do not know what justice is?

.

 

[JM]

This is how:
Psalm 139:1
O Lord, you have examined my heart
and know everything about me.

a

Two things are being done in this passage; 1) God examines the heart and 2) God knows everything about me.

God doesn't know everything about someone because He examines the heart, if you understand Scripture this way, you deny the inerrancy Scripture.

 

[JM]

Are you saying that humans do not know what justice is?

What is justice Duder?

 

[TanNinety]

This is how:
Psalm 139:1
O Lord, you have examined my heart
and know everything about me.

a

Two things are being done in this passage; 1) God examines the heart and 2) God knows everything about me.

God doesn't know everything about someone because He examines the heart, if you understand Scripture this way, you deny the inerrancy Scripture.

It is redundant for an all knowing God to examine something that He is absolutely certain of. The "and" in the psalm was the additional result of the previous statement which is "you examined my heart".

To support your view the psalm should have actually read:
O Lord, you examine my heart and know everything about me.
Where you [can] be justified in breaking the sentence into the two separate 1. and 2. like you have.

But that is not the case, the fact that God has examined my heart is addressing the issue of Him knowing everything about me as a result.

 

[Duder]

.

What is justice Duder?

Hello, JM -

I would love to engage with you on this. But as a matter of courtesy, shouldn't you first address my question to you?

Thanks

.

 

[Solo]

.

I am very comfortable with it. Why aren't you?

Hello, Solo -

Please look again at what I asked JM:

........."...don't we have to conclude that God has ordained
.........than some will suffer eternal agony for things that
.........He Himself is in the final analysis responsible for?
.........Are you comfortable with this conclusion, or do you
.........have some way of avoiding it?"


Are you certain you have no reservations about this? And do you really not know why some would have reservations about it?

I have absolutely no reservations about God's entire scheme of things. Whatever he deems is necessary so be it.

God created it, and he can do as he pleases with it.

That is true.

And he doesn't need your approval.

God is righteous, just, merciful, full of grace, loving, etc.

That is true also. But this is the part that raises the problem. Causing people to suffer for things they are ultimately not responsible for is the opposite of what we understand justice to mean. Now, you may argue that humans really do not comprehend the meaning of justice, so what appears unjust to us will turn out to be just. But if it is true that we do not know what justice is, then one wonders why God would expect us to act justly.

We can do absolutely nothing righteous but seek after God while he draws us to himself. He draws us to himself by the guidence of the Holy Spirit through His Son Jesus Christ. God does all of this for each person. When God reveals himself to each one of us, we come to him in the Light that he has provided, or we reject him for the darkness where we live. We end up exactly where we choose to be, with God for eternity or away from God for eternity.

It is my opinion that God is good, and that He can always be counted upon to act justly. Moreover, I believe that humans are capable of seeing that God is just. We can look at what He does, and say, "I recocognize that those things which God does are just, and so I conclude that God is a just God."

In other words, I think humans do know what justice is. They know it when they see it. I think God gave them this ability. If humans did not know what justice is, then they would be incapable of praising God in an honest and meaningful way for His justice.

So naturally, a problem arises if we entertain an idea that seems to have God doing things that are the opposite of just, as we understand it. And causing people to suffer for things they are not responsible for is the opposite of what we take justice to mean, is it not?

Man is condemned already from birth. Those that become born of God, born again are no longer condemned. God has provided a way, the truth, the life in Jesus Christ. I find it exceptional that God would die on the cross to save such a corrupt, mortal being as man. His love is amazing. He is not bound to do anything unless he decides to do it. His justice would have been sufficient if all sinners were sealed to an eternity of punishment. His grace and mercy have tendered us a second chance for eternal life through Jesus Christ.

I trust him and his will, and shake my head at man's finite understanding or lack of understanding as it is.

Are you saying that humans do not know what justice is?

Compared to the backdrop of Jesus Christ, man doesn't know squat, apart from the revelation of God to man.

.

 

[DivineNames]

In essences, since God foreknows the will of man [fallen and dead in sin, or absolutely free to choose] Gods foreknowledge determines what that will it is going to be. The will comes into being because God has foreknown it. Our wills are therefore not limited but have as much power as God wants us to have, and have with certainty. Whatever the will does, it does as a matter of foreknowledge.

You say, "since God foreknows the will of man... Gods foreknowledge determines what that will it is going to be."

Then-

"Our wills are therefore not limited but have as much power as God wants us to have, and have with certainty."

What exactly are you trying to claim here? Our wills are not "limited" in what way?

Are you trying to show the compatibility of free will and everything being determined by God? (Determined by God's foreknowledge apparently).

That is my guess as to what you are trying to argue...

 

[Duder]

I have absolutely no reservations about God's entire scheme of things. Whatever he deems is necessary so be it.

Hi, Solo -

I agree with you!

Whatever God wants to do must be the very best thing. What I have reservations about is this notion we have been considering: the idea that what God wants to do is to relegate people to the flames because of things for which they were not responsible.

Do you think that is the sort of thing God would want to do?

God created it, and he can do as he pleases with it.

That is true.

And he doesn't need your approval.

I did not express approval. I expressed agreement with your opinion that God can do as He pleases.

We can do absolutely nothing righteous but seek after God while he draws us to himself. He draws us to himself by the guidence of the Holy Spirit through His Son Jesus Christ. God does all of this for each person. When God reveals himself to each one of us, we come to him in the Light that he has provided, or we reject him for the darkness where we live. We end up exactly where we choose to be, with God for eternity or away from God for eternity.

All of that is true. However, it really does not touch upon the issue at hand. The question is, can humans praise God for His justice? I think you would agree that they can. And if this is so, then it must follow that humans know justice when they see it.

Most of us would say that causing a person to suffer on account of something for which they are not responsible would be the opposite of justice. Perhaps you have a different view and think causing those not responsible to suffer might be just.

I have been hoping you would address this point and tell us what you think about it.

Man is condemned already from birth.

If the central idea of JM's OP is correct - that God created the whole future history of the universe, such that none of us can depart from the events written in that history - then God is ultimately responsible for man being born condemned. And so my question remains unanswered. Can it be just to cause people to suffer when they are not responsible?

.

 

[JM]

.

What is justice Duder?

Hello, JM -

I would love to engage with you on this. But as a matter of courtesy, shouldn't you first address my question to you?

Thanks

.

Yes, yes and no. [I think you're looking for simple yes and no answers, hope that helps.]

Peace,

JM