Fuel Cell Technology

[jasonc]

Not really. Ethanol was the preferred fuel for hydrogen conversion. The end goal for E85 was never the combustion engine. Rather, it was a stepping stone to increase Ethenol production to support hydrogen fuel cells.

History shows us that it was resisted and was politicized till it died. After all, your talking the elimination of a lot of good paying jobs and the collapse of a global business.

If the new direction is to convert fossil fuels into hydrogen, then you dont have to fight the oil companies to build a new infustructure that would support fuel cell technology.

Ethanol eats rubber,it caused my carb on my chain saw to fail,can't clean them enough.bough new on cause it was cheaper to get a new saw.
Next have you heard of algae blooms ? Try not breathing on the beach while red or blue tide occur.

Ethanol, big sugar while not all the cause it's gonna make that worse.

https://dailycaller.com/2018/08/04/epa-ethanol-mandate-environment/

What good is it when your car doesn't gas but you can't go to beach,nor lake or river due to asthma? I got hit a mile from the beach ,throat burned .I managed but if I went in the shore,I wouldn't have that was red tide.look up massive fish deaths

 

[stovebolts]

jasonc ,
From what I understand, fuel cells are zero emmessions.

 

[Michael74]

Ethanol eats rubber,it caused my carb on my chain saw to fail,can't clean them enough.bough new on cause it was cheaper to get a new saw.

Ethanol is not a sensible fuel for internal combustion engines. Its counter productive in ICE. It only works good in fuel cells. Putting it in ICE is the reason people don't like it.

Next have you heard of algae blooms ?

Lobbies are the reason its made from corn instead of switchgrass. K Street is preventing sensible solutions.

Switchgrass produced ethanol in fuel cells is a good match. Corn produced ethanol in ICE has helped make cars expensive, and affects mileage. Because of its affect on mileage, unpopular workarounds like engines that turn off when people are waiting in an intersection to make a left turn were introduced to meet CAFE. Forcing it into ICE has made many people hate ethanol.

By contrast, switchgrass ethanol in fuel cell cars produces good mileage, and reliable cars. Fewer moving parts.

 

[Knotical]

But how finite is oil, really. Here in West Texas my company has reached a production rate of 400k barrels per day with all of the new wells that have been drilled recently, and we are not slowing down. Really, the only time oil production is constrained is when there is some political issue and producing countries try to stick it to each other over price.

 

[stovebolts]

jasonc ,
From what I understand, fuel cells are zero emmessions.

But how finite is oil, really. Here in West Texas my company has reached a production rate of 400k barrels per day with all of the new wells that have been drilled recently, and we are not slowing down. Really, the only time oil production is constrained is when there is some political issue and producing countries try to stick it to each other over price.

Yes, and I just read that the US just produced more oil than the middle east, or something like that. Regular is $2.19 in the Detrout suburbs.

I think the car companies understand that they cant irritate the oil companies and as previously shown, they loose the political battle that keeps us relying on fossil fuels.

As a result, IF they produce vehicles for the masses that convert gasoline to hydrogen instead of burning gasoline in combustion engines what you end up with is a win win. Oil companies retain their product and the tree huggers get zero emmissions. It's rather brilliant if you ask me.

 

[JohnDB]

But how finite is oil, really. Here in West Texas my company has reached a production rate of 400k barrels per day with all of the new wells that have been drilled recently, and we are not slowing down. Really, the only time oil production is constrained is when there is some political issue and producing countries try to stick it to each other over price.

Texas oil is better utalized as lubricants than fuel. But it also costs more to produce than what other countries can provide it for. That's the reason why Saudi opened the spigot to flood the market and drop the price to bankrupt Texas oil producers.

Actual gasoline comes from Mexico and South America and the Gulf.

 

[stovebolts]

JohnDB ,
You seem to understand chemistry and are more adept at knowing what to search for than I.

You said something earlier about using iron instead of platinum to convert gas into hydrogen. Can you talk more about that? Also, aside from water, what other elements would be emitted?

Does all of the gas get converted, or is there a byproduct? What happens to the byproduct and is it toxic?

I havent been able to find these answers.

 

[JohnDB]

Nitrogen dioxide...(harmless stuff) is emitted in small, minute quantities...not enough to do anything with unfortunately.

Like your catalytic converter uses platinum to reduce emissions by being doped with other elements which react with your car's exhaust the same is true for a semipermeable membrane used to extract the hydrogen from the fuel. Contaminates in the fuel destroy the membrane because of platinum's reactivity. New plastics have lessened this reactivity greatly while retaining the hydrogen permeability.

(A hydrocarbon molecule attached itself to the platinum compound and then gives off the hydrogen on one side and then releases the other elements. )

They have been successful in creating an iron/sulfur compound that will react in the same fashion. Iron and sulphur being a LOT cheaper than platinum. $1500 vx $2.50

 

[JohnDB]

After the hydrogen is introduced to oxygen electrons are given off...(producing current) and a voltage is created. Water is a byproduct of this process...

The voltage isn't much so they string several stacks together to create enough of a voltage and current to actually do something with. (Like turn a motor)

This process also creates a bit of heat...(100°C... boiling water temp which is the water vapor running out the exhaust)

 

[WIP]

jasonc ,
From what I understand, fuel cells are zero emmessions.

Yes, and I just read that the US just produced more oil than the middle east, or something like that. Regular is $2.19 in the Detrout suburbs.

I think the car companies understand that they cant irritate the oil companies and as previously shown, they loose the political battle that keeps us relying on fossil fuels.

As a result, IF they produce vehicles for the masses that convert gasoline to hydrogen instead of burning gasoline in combustion engines what you end up with is a win win. Oil companies retain their product and the tree huggers get zero emmissions. It's rather brilliant if you ask me.

There has to be emissions when converted gasoline or any oil to power fuel cells because there are other atoms involved besides hydrogen. The question is what are those emissions and how will they affect our environment?

 

[jasonc]

jasonc ,
From what I understand, fuel cells are zero emmessions.

Yes, and I just read that the US just produced more oil than the middle east, or something like that. Regular is $2.19 in the Detrout suburbs.

I think the car companies understand that they cant irritate the oil companies and as previously shown, they loose the political battle that keeps us relying on fossil fuels.

As a result, IF they produce vehicles for the masses that convert gasoline to hydrogen instead of burning gasoline in combustion engines what you end up with is a win win. Oil companies retain their product and the tree huggers get zero emmissions. It's rather brilliant if you ask me.

Uhm I more worried about blue algae ,which had no warnings just hits and when the sensors alert you already are feeling it.

Irma,hit one week later our beaches were closed.

Land is finite.where I work at times in the 50s was a Grove .some spots as recent as 2000.

 

[jasonc]

Ethanol is not a sensible fuel for internal combustion engines. Its counter productive in ICE. It only works good in fuel cells. Putting it in ICE is the reason people don't like it.



Lobbies are the reason its made from corn instead of switchgrass. K Street is preventing sensible solutions.

Switchgrass produced ethanol in fuel cells is a good match. Corn produced ethanol in ICE has helped make cars expensive, and affects mileage. Because of its affect on mileage, unpopular workarounds like engines that turn off when people are waiting in an intersection to make a left turn were introduced to meet CAFE. Forcing it into ICE has made many people hate ethanol.

By contrast, switchgrass ethanol in fuel cell cars produces good mileage, and reliable cars. Fewer moving parts.

Switch grass won't require fertilizing, irrigation from storm drainage ,reuse or rain ?

Seriously ,switchgrass is grown here by big sugar .bla med by the tree huggers for algae. The big Lake in my state became so toxic last year people were told to avoid it.kinda hard if you live on the lake ! My files nearly does.it also is drinking water for west Palm beach.yup so say again .

 

[Michael74]

The big Lake in my state became so toxic last year people were told to avoid it

These are all situations caused by forcing ethanol into internal combustion engines nationwide. They only need ethanol fuel cell vehicles in places like California, where inversion layers trap smog. Rural American has no smog, and no need.

Research should be continued. When it is ready, petrol fuel cells can be introduced nationwide. People will actually like them, because they will get so many additional miles per gallon. It was silly to force ethanol into internal combustion engines, because there is no benefit to doing so. That just made people hate ethanol.

 

[stovebolts]

Nitrogen dioxide...(harmless stuff) is emitted in small, minute quantities...not enough to do anything with unfortunately.

Like your catalytic converter uses platinum to reduce emissions by being doped with other elements which react with your car's exhaust the same is true for a semipermeable membrane used to extract the hydrogen from the fuel. Contaminates in the fuel destroy the membrane because of platinum's reactivity. New plastics have lessened this reactivity greatly while retaining the hydrogen permeability.

(A hydrocarbon molecule attached itself to the platinum compound and then gives off the hydrogen on one side and then releases the other elements. )

They have been successful in creating an iron/sulfur compound that will react in the same fashion. Iron and sulphur being a LOT cheaper than platinum. $1500 vx $2.50

So your saying the only emissions are water and a small, harmless amount of Nitrogen dioxide.

 

[Michael74]

Switchgrass produces 5 times as much energy as is needed to produce it. Corn ethanol uses about as much energy to produce it as is produced. The energy return on energy invested favors switchgrass. A bit more research on cellulosic biofuel technology is needed before it is ready for prime time though. Switchgrass produced on midwest prairies, and ethanol shipped to California, is a good deal EROEI wise.

Arpa style research on alternative energy should be continued.

 

[JohnDB]

So your saying the only emissions are water and a small, harmless amount of Nitrogen dioxide.

Yeah...
The main problems of fuel cell technology (politics aside) is contaminates in the fuel.

Most of these can be filtered out or processed out. But some will just about destroy the fuel cell. And for your average person that gets expensive quick.

Sugar in the gas tank was never funny to begin with.

As far as ethanol fuel goes...
We have several stations around here that sell it...and a bunch of people have vehicles that can run on it. (Flexfuel and etc)

But the consensus is that the MPG from the cheaper ethanol fuel is considerably less than petroleum...so much so that even when faced with a choice between alcohol or gasoline the gas gets first place every time. Even though the ethanol fuel is $.30-.40 cheaper per gallon. Which was a shock to me.


So with fuel cell technology...I don't know if there will be a difference in MPG or not. (I'd have to do a bunch of chem math...and I don't want to) but the results of the two fuels would be that the alcohol in a fuel cell system would be a lot less fouling of the internals.

 

[stovebolts]

Question. Is Jet fuel free from all the additives of regulation gasoline?

As far as ethenol, the flex fuel vehicles were never optimized for ethenol. Engines with compression ratios above 11:1 benifit where compression ratios 9:1 and under suffer.

 

[Michael74]

The results showed that higher compression ratios improved engine performance for both fuels throughout all the speed range investigated, with major effects being observed when hydrous ethanol was used.

At 22% ethanol anyway.

Funny cars that use ethanol and methanol have compression ratios of between 14.5 and 16 to 1.

Today's Ford Eco-boost engine is capable of running compression ratios as high as 14:1

Some eco vehicles can use ethanol optimized ratios.

 

[JohnDB]

Question. Is Jet fuel free from all the additives of regulation gasoline?

As far as ethenol, the flex fuel vehicles were never optimized for ethenol. Engines with compression ratios above 11:1 benifit where compression ratios 9:1 and under suffer.

The military likes to use jet fuel (JP8) because of it's characteristics. (High flash point and low foam)
So fuel for the military is "one size fits all". All vehicles use this fuel including the Navy. Their electric motors run from generators fed with JP8.

Other hydrocarbon fuels would work...the formulation of other fuels wouldn't severely affect the fuel cell efficiencies and likely would be better.

You know the philosophy: the right way, the wrong way, the military way.

 

[stovebolts]

At 22% ethanol anyway.

Funny cars that use ethanol and methanol have compression ratios of between 14.5 and 16 to 1.



Some eco vehicles can use ethanol optimized ratios.

You should head out to the race track some time. Those guys love e-85. Improves performance and runs cooler!

Is the echo boost Turbo charged?