Gay News and The Church

[Lewis]

Pastors defy United Methodist officials to conduct gay weddings
Some have officiated at such ceremonies, some plan to and 82 retired ministers have offered their services. Bishop warns that violating church guidelines has consequences.
By Duke Helfand, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
July 17, 2008
Scores of United Methodist Church ministers in California are putting their careers on the line in an open revolt against religious edicts that forbid them to conduct weddings for gay and lesbian couples.

The pastors could lose their jobs and clerical credentials in the church, the nation's second-largest Protestant denomination.

Ministers in Santa Monica, Claremont, Walnut Creek and other cities have already performed ceremonies for gays and lesbians or are planning to do so.

In addition, 82 retired pastors in Northern California signed a resolution in June offering to perform such weddings on behalf of ministers who feel they can't do so themselves.

Pastors have been emboldened by United Methodist assemblies in California that declared their support last month for the state Supreme Court's recent ruling overturning a ban on same-sex marriage.

The regional assemblies -- composed of lay leaders and clergy from California and other states -- also urged pastors and congregations to "welcome, embrace and provide spiritual nurture" for gay couples.

Defenders of gay marriage say they want to compel the 11-million-member denomination to live up to its slogan -- "Open hearts. Open minds. Open doors."

"I'm tired of being part of a church that lacks integrity," said the Rev. Janet Gollery McKeithen of Santa Monica's Church in Ocean Park, who plans to conduct weddings for two gay couples in August and September. "I love my church, and I don't want to leave it. But I can't be part of a church that is willing to portray a God that is so hateful. I would rather be forced out."

The two bishops who oversee United Methodist churches in California -- Mary Ann Swenson and Beverly J. Shamana -- have cautioned ministers against taking matters into their own hands.

Conducting same-sex weddings, the bishops have said in correspondence, violates provisions in the Book of Discipline, which lays out the laws and guidelines that govern the church. Under church rules, bishops and others are required to investigate complaints that can be filed by any church member.

"Pastors need to know that there are consequences," said Swenson, of the California-Pacific Annual Conference, which covers Southern California, Hawaii, Guam and Saipan. "We are bound to honor the policy of our denomination."

The turmoil in the Methodist church is occurring in variations across the Protestant landscape, with some religious authorities glimpsing what they believe are the seeds of rifts, perhaps even schisms, in mainline denominations.

But the conflict is having an immediate effect on United Methodists, as pastors in California wage a struggle that many characterize as the civil rights cause of their generation.

At the heart of the dispute is the Book of Discipline. The book calls the practice of homosexuality incompatible with Christian teaching and says "ceremonies that celebrate homosexual unions shall not be conducted by our ministers and shall not be conducted in our churches."

In addition, it excludes "self-avowed practicing homosexuals" from the ministry.

But as defenders of gay marriage note, the text also says that "certain basic human rights and civil liberties are due all persons. We are committed to supporting those rights and liberties for homosexual persons."

This spring, the United Methodist Church's international governing body, the General Conference, reaffirmed the existing language on homosexuality. Then in June, California's two governing bodies approved their resolutions supporting gay weddings.

One measure adopted by Southern California's Methodist leaders recognized "the pastoral need and prophetic authority" of clergy and congregations to make marriage available to all. In a nod to the repercussions, the measure urged "compassion and understanding in any resulting disciplinary actions."

A separate resolution from the Northern California and Nevada contingent commended its retired pastors for offering their marriage services.

When a clergy member asked Bishop Shamana, who oversees Northern California and Nevada, to rule on the retired pastors' resolution, she called it a "commendable gesture" but declared it "void and of no effect."
Shamana, in a ruling released June 21, said regional authorities did not have the power to offer services that the international governing body had found to be "chargeable offenses against the law of the United Methodist Church."

But some members of the clergy remain undaunted. One of the authors of the retired ministers' measure, Don Fado, said he would willingly violate the guidelines on same-sex marriage as a matter of conscience, even if it meant the loss of clerical credentials and financial benefits.

"We are willing to put our professions on the line because this is so central to our ministry," said Fado, 74, retired pastor of St. Mark's United Methodist Church in Sacramento. "Any pastor who is called upon to make that decision knows there are 82 of us who are willing to make that stand."

Some conservative United Methodists believe that the debate over church rules ignores a deeper issue -- the Bible's prohibitions against homosexuality. "We have lost any ability to have a biblical discussion on the topic," said the Rev. John McFarland, senior pastor of Fountain Valley United Methodist Church.

Still, with the November election approaching -- featuring a measure to ban same-sex marriage in California -- some ministers are forging ahead with weddings.

The Rev. Sharon Rhodes-Wickett of Claremont United Methodist Church joined a retired deacon from her congregation to co-officiate at the July 5 wedding of two longtime members, Howard Yeager and Bill Charlton.

The wedding was held off site -- at a Claremont complex for retired clergy and missionaries -- to avoid violating the rule against such ceremonies in churches.

Rhodes-Wickett, who led the Lord's Prayer and gave a homily, said she hoped to avoid discipline by stopping short of actually pronouncing the couple married. That action was performed by the retired deacon, who also signed the marriage license.

Rhodes-Wickett said she did not want Yeager and Charlton to leave her church to exchange vows.

"This is my flock," she said, adding that the men have been together 40 years, 22 of them as members of her Claremont congregation. "It's a matter of integrity and a matter of what it is to be a pastoral ministry."

duke.helfand@

latimes.com

 

[turnorburn]

Sure doesn't do any good to tell them their Gay, so try this if you have the spirit to do it, call them Sodomites, at least then you'll have their attention :smt045

Genesis 13:13 But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly.
Genesis 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
Isaiah 3: 9 The shew of their countenance doth witness against them; and they declare their sin as Sodom, they hide it not. Woe unto their soul! for they have rewarded evil unto themselves.
Luke 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

 

[heather]

Sure doesn't do any good to tell them their Gay, so try this if you have the spirit to do it, call them Sodomites, at least then you'll have their attention :smt045

I like that! My aunt's church welcomes all lifestyles, and while that's ok to do if the person is trying to turn their life around, it's the fast track to kicking God out of your church.

 

[Vic C.]

I like that! My aunt's church welcomes all lifestyles, and while that's ok to do if the person is trying to turn their life around, it's the fast track to kicking God out of your church.

Hi Heather,

Good point... our church building doors should be open to all, but our words and their ears should be open to change. No one goes into an emergency room with a problem and says, No thanks, I'm just here to make it look like I'm getting help. :-?

Also, the doctors (pastors) need to recognize and actually want to treat the problem, not let it fester.

 

[heather]

AMEN! I have to say that when a visitor of my church made it clear that he was not willing to change his sexual preference, the pastor politely asked him not to return.

 

[handy]

I thought of this passage when I read this article:

Isaiah 42
19Who is blind but My servant,
Or so deaf as My messenger whom I send?
Who is so blind as he that is at peace with Me,
Or so blind as the servant of the LORD?
20You have seen many things, but you do not observe them;
Your ears are open, but none hears.
21The LORD was pleased for His righteousness' sake
To make the law great and glorious.
22But this is a people plundered and despoiled;
All of them are trapped in caves,
Or are hidden away in prisons;
They have become a prey with none to deliver them,
And a spoil, with none to say, "Give them back!"
23Who among you will give ear to this?
Who will give heed and listen hereafter?
24Who gave Jacob up for spoil, and Israel to plunderers?
Was it not the LORD, against whom we have sinned,
And in whose ways they were not willing to walk,
And whose law they did not obey?
25So He poured out on him the heat of His anger
And the fierceness of battle;
And it set him aflame all around,
Yet he did not recognize it;
And it burned him, but he paid no attention.

And lest we are too smug and say "Well, that was the Jews, God wouldn't strike the Church in such a way:

Romans 11
17But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,

18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.

19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."

20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith Do not be conceited, but fear;

21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

 

[Steve]

AMEN! I have to say that when a visitor of my church made it clear that he was not willing to change his sexual preference, the pastor politely asked him not to return.

While God can change a person's sexual make-up, He usually does not; ergo, I'd be asking that pastor of yours to leave.(after telling him to bite me, of course).

 

[destiny]

The reason God doesn't change a persons sexual perversion rests with man instead of with God.

 

[turnorburn]

If you get kicked out of a church for calling a spade a spade I'd be taking a good look at their statement of faith. We as a church have been lulled to sleep because there isn't a deep desire to know how the Lord thinks, how does he look at Sodomites, did he invite them to chat and lay their cards on the table when he sent his angels.

 

[Carol Lowery]

Gods Word is very clear what is not accepted within the church in order for the Church to continue to be blest with the presents of the Holy Spirit and proper in it's existence for the glory of God. This could get so lengthy in discussion and I've had about a 100 of these discussions over this subject already. I look at it this way....the wages of sin is death....simple. And I look at it in other ways like if there's one in the church who didn't want to give up stealing from people because he/she likes it and confessed it out right that they were'nt gong to quit. I believe that's a two way street as far as brushing the dust off of us and leaving it on their threshold when ministering or when one's rebuking. As Christ has HIS own, so does the enemy and believe me I've seen the enemy work his ways in churches, even in mine at one time. But to accept the enemy thumbing his nose at God in a House of Prayer is no better than a market place being set up in the temple with a bunch of disrespectful thieves....which resulted in Christ doing what HE did. As long as this Pastor stood God's ground in Christ's love, then he was obedient to the Truth and love of God's Word. Seeds......have to be so careful what is sown within the church and by whom.

Kudos HIM,
Carolpsalm91 <><

 

[VaultZero4Me]

If you get kicked out of a church for calling a spade a spade I'd be taking a good look at their statement of faith. We as a church have been lulled to sleep because there isn't a deep desire to know how the Lord thinks, how does he look at Sodomites, did he invite them to chat and lay their cards on the table when he sent his angels.

Seriously, Sodom and Gomorrah was never taught as only a punishment of homosexuality, much less the main one. Classical Jewish texts focused on hospitality. Sodom and Gomorrah being judged primarily for homosexuality is unhistorical to say the least. Why is that story trumpeted so much for homosexuality, when that view on it is so incompatible with what has been taught since the scripture was laid to parchment?

Plus, Jesus was known for fellowshipping with what others considered untouchable. I doubt he went around "calling a spade a spade". In fact, most of his judgment was focused at the church for treating people in that very way.

Even when Christ referred to the story, his context was of inhospitality.

"If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town. I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town."

â€â€Matthew 10:14-15

If Sodom's main sin, or even major sin was homosexuality, why did Christ use it to illustrate acts of unkindness, or not receiving people with kindess. There is no connection to homosexuality in Christ's words here.

In fact, YHWH did not mention it either, unless you want to include it in the generic "abominations". YHWH seemed to put more importance, if not all, on being inhospitable.

Ezekial 16:46-52
46And thine elder sister is Samaria, she and her daughters that dwell at thy left hand: and thy younger sister, that dwelleth at thy right hand, is Sodom and her daughters.

47Yet hast thou not walked after their ways, nor done after their abominations: but, as if that were a very little thing, thou wast corrupted more than they in all thy ways.

48As I live, saith the Lord GOD, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters.

49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.

50And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.

51Neither hath Samaria committed half of thy sins; but thou hast multiplied thine abominations more than they, and hast justified thy sisters in all thine abominations which thou hast done.

52Thou also, which hast judged thy sisters, bear thine own shame for thy sins that thou hast committed more abominable than they: they are more righteous than thou: yea, be thou confounded also, and bear thy shame, in that thou hast justified thy sisters.

We look towards others when we should look towards ourselves. We are guilty of the sins of pride, selfishness, inequity, and idleness towards concern for the less fortunate. Those guilty of the above are the true sodomites.

 

[Lewis]

Paul said they deserve death, in Romans 1, the Bible said it, so don't get mad at me.

Romans 1

1Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

2(Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)

3Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

4And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

5By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

6Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

7To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

8First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

9For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;

10Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you.

11For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;

12That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.

13Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.

14I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise.

15So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.

16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

 

[destiny]

I think the churches should be spiritual hospitals for those who are wanting change, whether they want freedom from drug addiction, homosexuality, adultery, fornication.. any kind of addiction, perversion or sin in general.
The church should be a place to find God's people and the power of God made manifest through their-our lives. If someone comes in just to try to conform the church to satan or the worlds standards ..then they need to go.
If the power of God is truly operating in a church you won't have to ask someone like that to leave, they will leave because the conviction of the Holy Spirit will make them very uncomfortable. That doesn't happen very often these days, unfortunately.

 

[turnorburn]

I think the churches should be spiritual hospitals for those who are wanting change, whether they want freedom from drug addiction, homosexuality, adultery, fornication.. any kind of addiction, perversion or sin in general.
The church should be a place to find God's people and the power of God made manifest through their-our lives. If someone comes in just to try to conform the church to satan or the worlds standards ..then they need to go.
If the power of God is truly operating in a church you won't have to ask someone like that to leave, they will leave because the conviction of the Holy Spirit will make them very uncomfortable. That doesn't happen very often these days, unfortunately.

Destiny!

 

[VaultZero4Me]

Paul said they deserve death, in Romans 1, the Bible said it, so don't get mad at me.

Romans 1

1Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

2(Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)

3Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

4And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

5By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

6Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

7To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

8First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

9For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;

10Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you.

11For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;

12That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.

13Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.

14I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise.

15So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.

16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought the Bible makes it clear that we are all worthy of death because of sin.

Are you saying that a homosexual is worthy of death in a different way than any other?

 

[handy]

The homosexual is not worthy of death in any other way than any other sinner is.

However homosexual acts are sin. At issue isn't whether or not homosexuals are 'worse' sinners than anyone else. They are not. At issue is whether or not the sin of homosexual behavior is to be ignored by the church.

I see two very major problems within the church today concerning homosexuality:

1: There is an element of activism that is pushing and pushing hard to allow people who are openly engaged in the sin of homosexual behavior to be accepted, without question and without changing their sinful behavior, in the church, even to the point of being ministers and lay-leaders.

2: There is an even larger element of hypocrisy within the church that is more than willing to ignore many forms of open sin, but draw an unbiblical and arbitrary line at homosexuality.

Problem 2 gave rise to problem 1. And I believe the main issue that gave rise to problem 2 is the issue of divorce. One cannot hold to the scriptures on the subject of divorce (unless adultery was involved) and remarriage and find it OK to allow for divorced pastors and lay-leaders, but nonetheless, divorce is very common in the church today, to the point that many would argue that there is any sin involved in divorce. Since divorce and remarriage was called adultery by Jesus Himself, then it's hard to get away from hypocrisy to say that it's OK to have divorced church members, lay-leaders and pastors but yet not homosexual members, etc.

If we are not going to use the Bible as the standard for church conduct and discipline, then we have no leg to stand on whatsoever if we are going to allow for divorce and remarriage in the church, but not openly gay and lesbian members.

If we are going to use the Bible as the standard for church conduct and discipline, then we have a much larger problem than gays wanting to enjoy the same church privledges as any other sinner. Because if we are going to stand firm and not allow anyone who is involved in unrepented sin and invoke church discipline up to excommunicating people for openly sinful behavior, then a lot of folks, not just gays, would be out.

It's very sad, but it seems as though the only open sins that the church will not stand for today is homosexuality (and that is being chipped away at) and any sin involved absconding with the church's money. If someone embezzeles the tithes and offerings, then you can be sure that that sinner will be out on his ear. That says something about where the true heart of the church today is.

 

[Carol Lowery]

Second that Dora...thumbs up! But I got to say in my church that goes for all blantant, habitual sin. Live-ins are counseled w/prayer & support team on call 24/7 with the expectation of the situation changing immediately, gambling to the point of losing everything given counsel with immediate change expected (all gambling stopped), adultry, if the spouse so chooses to give a second chance after forgiveness with counseling/prayer/support team on call 24/7 then it's monitored with the Pastor presence for extended biblical counseling and prayer.
Our 33 year old youth pastor had to resign from his position due to him having a lady friend over for dinner/movie with front door open.....but they accidently fell asleep on he couch and in the morning was witnessed by a church member. I was on the board and in that meeting, and that was the hardest decision I ever made. Though with all my heart and soul I don't believe he sinned in the flesh. He was very strong that his youth remain virgin like him. And there were those like my daughter took her vows before the church to stay virgin until God appointed her a husband and wore wedding bands to represent their pledges to God, he brought our youth forward in a mighty way to love and respect themselves. But according to God's Word, his character is to be beyond reproach, and not given to rumors/gossip by their actions, or to become stumbing blocks to his flock.....and so what was done, was done according to HIS Word. So I haven't viewed in our church that anyone was the acception from counseling or/and discipline on blantant habitual sin. But I've been in churches on visits and couldn't believe what I was seeing, youth making out in church while the pastor is speaking his sermon....I could go on and on.

Kudos HIM,
Carolpsalm91 <><

 

[turnorburn]

Conservatives: On 2007-MAR-28, the American Family Association circulated a statement saying:
"The Hate Crimes Act [sic] threatens religious leaders with criminal prosecution for their thoughts, beliefs and statements."

Once approved a person caught could get up to 5 years in the joint "this means you and me"
Looks like we will get the chance to see how it was in the days of Noah, Sodom and Gomorrah, wait
we are seeing it :smt090

 

[turnorburn]

Have a look see at this :smt018

http://sanctifusion.blogspot.com/2008/0 ... -four.html

 

[believer_in_one]

Blessings to those who are in Christ Jesus our only Lord and saviour! Kudo's to those who stand for truth no matter the cost! Now if you don't mind i want to go back to the original article. The United Methodist Church, seems to me has too much authority in the first place. Now let me explain. Everything starts from the top, the governments laws, if they oppose Gods are also to be opposed by those who are in God. Now for these ''denominations'' to be imposing there own rules seems ludicrous. People put too much emphasis on membership rather than the wholeness of the body of Christ. I still find it funny that gays and lesbians want to get married since heterosexuals are so busy getting divorced. i'll digress from that point though. There is undoubtedly an agenda by the gays and lesbians. They want to remove the biblical passages where it is sin to practice such unnatural actions. Of course we love the sinner and hate the sin, but when we are not to even tell them that they are practicing lawlessness, how can they ever be saved? Without the law given to Moses would we have known sin? Abraham believed in God and it was counted to him as righteousness. We know God and his statutes and believe in Jesus, it is accredited to us by faith as righteousness as well. We do not go willingly sinning do we? One who recognizes there sin turns from it. The gay and lesbians want us to recognize them as though they are not sinning. What would you do? What would you say to a gay couple, who attend your church? Would you feel comfortable with them being there? I think there is too much pressure on pastors who are told what to do by an outside source. let the holy spirit lead, its within all those who believe!