Bible Study Gender of the Holy Spirit : female personality

[dianegcook]

What is your take on Paul's mystery?

31 “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.


Anthropomorphically speaking, who is Christ's father and mother that He leaves to be joined to His wife?


JLB

Good question JLB
Hard to say, really don't have scripture to back whom is whom.
I know that Jesus was God in the flesh, conceived by the Holy Spirit through Mary.
The Church,
That would make men the bride which is feminine , we become the body of Christ, which is neither, Jew nor Greek, male nor female, for we are all one in Christ Jesus. Gal 3:28

So regarding gender in Spirit, is beyond our realm.
We just might know in part now, but one day we will see in that realm.

Good day...

 

[JLB]

We just might know in part now, but one day we will see in that realm.

Yes Ma'am.

 

[rthom7]

dianegcook your reply is great.... I too see the Holy Spirit as a simile of wisdom, whose job is to reveal the wisdom of the word through the Scriptures.... thus as Edward says blaspheming the Holy Spirit blocks your access to the Father's power, and Jesus power for salvation, thus you cannot access them....

As JBL says, that is a good point, the heavenly parents become symbols of marriage on earth, in Paul's verses....

As JBL says, the strongest point the Holy Spirit is feminine, is Gen 1:26 when Elohiym made mankind gender male and female in their Image.... that's a great point

The second great point is the two heavenly parents come together to born their Son Jesus in the womb of Mary, incarnate in a mystery.... in Luke 1:35, the Highest is the Father, and the Holy Spirit, both come upon Mary....

The third point is the elder worship a trinity of godhead members in Revelation, one is called YHWH, the other Elohiym and the third is called SHADDAY.... The Holy Spirit is known in Scripture as the Shadday....

Re 4:8 ¶ And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, YHWH Elohiym SHADDAY , which was, and is, and is to come.

The King James says Shaddad means "almighty" but such a word is never translated, instead the word "Shadad" is translated as spoil 95% of the time... the word come from a breast that is dried up, and thus spoiled.... The Hebrew word Shad, also means teat.
The Shadday means "pressed to the breast with active arms" describes to me a Being totally interested in our salvation, and that image is a nice one to have considering our salvation....just to balance this picture, in Hebrew lands, a man will greet you pressing to the breast (chest) with active arms too, and this takes time for a Western person like me to get used to, but both human types do this type of loving.... I meet a person who loved doing this to me....;)

Shalom

 

[rthom7]

Ultimately, the subjects of male/female as it pertains to theology and God/The Godhead are much easier to understand.

Male: Objective portion
Female: Subjective portion

Both Aspects are quite firmly entrenched in the Godhead.

Yes correct, and in a group the Holy Spirit with the Father is written in the masculine because the Holy Spirit is an agency for the Father's power...

Shalom

 

[JLB]

The King James says Shaddad means "almighty" but such a word is never translated, instead the word "Shadad" is translated as spoil 95% of the time... the word come from a breast that is dried up, and thus spoiled.... The Hebrew word Shad, also means teat.
The Shadday means "pressed to the breast with active arms" describes to me a Being totally interested in our salvation, and that image is a nice one to have considering our salvation....just to balance this picture, in Hebrew lands, a man will greet you pressing to the breast (chest) with active arms too, and this takes time for a Western person like me to get used to, but both human types do this type of loving.... I meet a person who loved doing this to me....;)

Jesus illustrated this point you are making, in a subtle way when He said...

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing! Luke 13:34




JLB

 

[rthom7]

Thanks JBL, I like that thought

Shalom

 

[Jim Parker]

God, the father and God, the Holy Spirit do not have a sex! No spirit can have sex because there is no genitalia. Your research is in vain.

Exactly.

 

[Jim Parker]

The writings of the Bible pre-date 4th or 5th century. I'll stay with the Bible.

The Bible translation you have, if it is a modern translation, is based on such 4th century and later manuscripts. If you use the KJV, it is based on 12th century manuscripts.

 

[Jim Parker]

TWO words for love

Actually, there's four
Agape (ἀγάπη)
Philia (φιλία)
Eros (ἔρως)
Storge (στοργή)

It is a common fact that in the OT the Hebrew word for Holy Spirit s feminine in case ( again not a reference to gender or sex, but a simile to female personality)

There is no word for "Holy Spirit" in the Old Testament. There is one word for "holy" and one word for "spirit."
The term "Holy Spirit" appears only three times. Psa 51:11, Isa 63:10 and 11
The predominant term used throughout the OT is "the Spirit of the Lord."
The word translated "spirit" has a feminine form. That does not suggest a feminine "personality" for the Holy Spirit. It is simply the form of the word.

The view of Divine Wisdom being a metaphor for the Holy Spirit is widely accepted.
The idea that God has gender is universally rejected within orthodox Christianity.

 

[Jim Parker]

It is accepted theology that God was speaking to the Godhead when He said the above words.

God was talking to Himself? Or is the picturing of Elohiym talking an anthropomorphism?
Considering that there was no concept of God as trinity in Genesis, it seems a bit of a stretch to insert a trinitarian understanding into the narrative.

And then God made man a HELPER.
The Holy Spirit is a helper.

The Holy Spirit is God, the third person of the Trinity.
There is no representation of the Holy Spirit as a "helper" in scripture of which I am aware.

The New Testament translations refer to the Holy Spirit using a masculine pronoun. The noun "spirit" is neuter in the Greek.
Jhn 14:26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.
and
Jhn 15:26
But when the Counselor comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness to me;

But still, a feminine nature of the Holy Spirit does seem to be a reasonable perspective.

iakov the fool

 

[JLB]

The view of Divine Wisdom being a metaphor for the Holy Spirit is widely accepted.
The idea that God has gender is universally rejected within orthodox Christianity.

Not True.

God as our Father, which is clearly a Masculine gender is accepted by all of Orthodox Christianity.

His Son, as our Lord, which both Son and Lord denote a masculine gender, is accepted by orthodox Christianity.

JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

Not True.
God as our Father, which is clearly a Masculine gender is accepted by all of Orthodox Christianity.
His Son, as our Lord, which both Son and Lord denote a masculine gender, is accepted by orthodox Christianity.
JLB

OK. Use of language is important here. We need to be precise.
Jesus is definitely male.
Before the Logos was incarnate, God, the Trinity, was not a human being.
Referring to God as "Father" is an anthropomorphism. It is ascribing to God human attributes which he does not have.
God, the trinity, is not a man and, until the logos became flesh, the Trinity was not a man.

 

[GodsGrace]

OK. Use of language is important here. We need to be precise.
Jesus is definitely male.
Before the Logos was incarnate, God, the Trinity, was not a human being.
Referring to God as "Father" is an anthropomorphism. It is ascribing to God human attributes which he does not have.
God, the trinity, is not a man and, until the logos became flesh, the Trinity was not a man.

Are you there Jim Parker?
May I ask where?

I'll be waiting to see JLB's reply to the above since I don't even understand the question.
Everything we say about God has to be anthropomorphistic. Or do we really think we understand God...
The Trinity was not a man?
Does that mean Jesus IS the Trinity?
I guess you mean that there was not a human in the Trinity until the second person became a man.

Which brings up an interesting question. When Jesus was on Earth, was the 2nd person in heaven??
What say you?

Wondering

 

[rthom7]

Greetings Jim Parker

"Actually, there's four
Agape (ἀγάπη)
Philia (φιλία)
Eros (ἔρως)
Storge (στοργή)

Sorry there's only two, Ahab and ahabuh , both Hebrew words....you are quoting a translation in Greek.... just for fun show me the NT use of these four Greek words....The NT was originally written in Hebrew and later translated into Greek, the same Greek as the LXX.

There is no word for "Holy Spirit" in the Old Testament. There is one word for "holy" and one word for "spirit."
The term "Holy Spirit" appears only three times. Psa 51:11, Isa 63:10 and 11

I take it Jim you not believe in a co-eternal Being known as the Holy Spirit, or the Shadday. ?

The word translated "spirit" has a feminine form. That does not suggest a feminine "personality" for the Holy Spirit. It is simply the form of the word.

Just as the masculine pronouns does not suggest the Father is gender male either....so why do as assume the Father is gender male so easily ?

The view of Divine Wisdom being a metaphor for the Holy Spirit is widely accepted..

Thanks. So you do believe in a Holy Spirit ?

The idea that God has gender is universally rejected within orthodox Christianity

Who said anything about gender ? The two Hebrew words for love suggest difference in personalities in the Godhead, maleness love and femaleness love, and this is a simile of gender, but is not gender statements.

Shalom

 

[JLB]

OK. Use of language is important here. We need to be precise.
Jesus is definitely male.
Before the Logos was incarnate, God, the Trinity, was not a human being.
Referring to God as "Father" is an anthropomorphism. It is ascribing to God human attributes which he does not have.
God, the trinity, is not a man and, until the logos became flesh, the Trinity was not a man.

The Elohim, or Godhead is Three.

Three that together are One.

The Father is distinct from the Son, in which both are male.

The Father is a male designation, as the father Beget His only begotten Son.

To beget is a function of a male.

So the Father was male, before the foundation of the world, and beget His Son, who is male, before the foundation of the world, in which His Son laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens themselves are the works of His hands.


But to the Son He says:

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

10 And:
“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:8-10


If the Son, who is male, laid the very foundation of the earth, then He was begotten before the earth was created, being Himself the Creator of all things.

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. Colossians 1:15-17

So the Father and the Son, according to the scriptures were both male, before creation.



JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

May I ask where?

Las Vegas, Nevada where it's 113ºF in the shade.

Everything we say about God has to be anthropomorphistic.

It has to be. Our understanding of everything is based in our experience. (Our 5 senses by which we experience the world)

Or do we really think we understand God...

We can only understand what God has revealed of Himself. The rest is beyond our understanding.

The Trinity was not a man?I guess you mean that there was not a human in the Trinity until the second person became a man.

Yes
The Trinity is the creator. Man is one of God's creatures.
The Trinity is eternal, having no beginning or end.
The Logos (Word), at a point in time, about 2020 years ago, became flesh and dwelt among us. (John 1:14) The Son of God, the Logos, the second person of the Trinity, was born a man by the working of the Holy Spirit and the cooperation of the Virgin Mary.
That is Jesus Who is both God and Man.
Since that time, the second person of the Trinity (Logos, Word, Son, Jesus) has been both God and man.

When Jesus was on Earth, was the 2nd person in heaven??
What say you?

My head just exploded..............2 That's a tough question
OK, Here's my thinking (or whatever it is that goes on in there):
The Trinity (God) is not something that can be divided into separate parts like a puzzle. (As in: Piece #1 is Father, piece #2 is Son, piece #3 is Spirit. stick them together you get the whole thing...)
In the Creed, the Holy Spirit is said to be "everywhere present and filling all things."
So "God" is everywhere.
So the Father, the Son and the HS are all everywhere. Right?
The problem is that we cannot accurately define God. God is beyond our ability to comprehend.
We experience reality in 4 dimensions (length, width, height, and time) but, as I heard one astrophysicist say, God must exist in at least 11 dimensions because that is the number of dimensions that physicists have so far determined exist in the universe so God, being the creator, would have to exist in at least as many. (uh....O Kaaaay....)

Your question contains the question, "Did the incarnation allow for the 2nd Person to continue to be everywhere present?"
I would think it did.

We'll have to ask Him when we see Him.

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

So the Father and the Son, according to the scriptures were both male, before creation.

The Father and the Son are both described as if they were males in scripture.
They are "persons" and, in human experience, persons have gender.
God, the Trinity, is not constrained by or limited to our concept of gender.
God is much greater than we can ever understand.

 

[JLB]

The Father and the Son are both described as if they were males in scripture.
They are "persons" and, in human experience, persons have gender.

Yes the Father and Son are described as Males.

God, the Trinity, is not constrained by or limited to our concept of gender.

The Godhead is Three, that are One.

God is much greater than we can ever understand.

God is much greater than our understanding, but what He has chosen to reveal about Himself to us, we can understand.

Do you understand this mystery:

31 “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Ephesians 5:31-32

Can you see that Jesus will be joined to His wife, after He leaves His father and mother, and the two shall become one flesh?


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

It has to be. Our understanding of everything is based in our experience. (Our 5 senses by which we experience the world)

We can only understand what God has revealed of Himself. The rest is beyond our understanding.

Agreed.

Yes
The Trinity is the creator. Man is one of God's creatures.
The Trinity is eternal, having no beginning or end.
The Logos (Word), at a point in time, about 2020 years ago, became flesh and dwelt among us. (John 1:14) The Son of God, the Logos, the second person of the Trinity, was born a man by the working of the Holy Spirit and the cooperation of the Virgin Mary.
That is Jesus Who is both God and Man.
Since that time, the second person of the Trinity (Logos, Word, Son, Jesus) has been both God and man.

I find interesting how you refer to the Trinity as a person. "The Trinity is the creator. The trinity is eternal."
The Trinity is eternal is easily understood.
The Trinity is the creator will require some thought. Just to understand it better.

My head just exploded..............2 That's a tough question
OK, Here's my thinking (or whatever it is that goes on in there):
The Trinity (God) is not something that can be divided into separate parts like a puzzle. (As in: Piece #1 is Father, piece #2 is Son, piece #3 is Spirit. stick them together you get the whole thing...)
In the Creed, the Holy Spirit is said to be "everywhere present and filling all things."
So "God" is everywhere.
So the Father, the Son and the HS are all everywhere. Right?
The problem is that we cannot accurately define God. God is beyond our ability to comprehend.
We experience reality in 4 dimensions (length, width, height, and time) but, as I heard one astrophysicist say, God must exist in at least 11 dimensions because that is the number of dimensions that physicists have so far determined exist in the universe so God, being the creator, would have to exist in at least as many. (uh....O Kaaaay....)

Your question contains the question, "Did the incarnation allow for the 2nd Person to continue to be everywhere present?"
I would think it did.

We'll have to ask Him when we see Him.

iakov the fool

Sorry about the explosion Parker. My head exploded too when I was asked this. I can't swear to this, but I do think it was a pre-teen in a catechism class of mine.

I agree with you, BTW.
Oh. And when we see Him, we won't have to ask anything - we'll just know!

Wondering

 

[Jim Parker]

God is much greater than our understanding, but what He has chosen to reveal about Himself to us, we can understand.

He has chosen to reveal Himself to in IN TERMS which we can understand.

Do you understand this mystery:
31 “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Ephesians 5:31-32

Yes. We have eternal life by being "one flesh" with Christ; by being intimately united to Christ by grace through faith. That is why the Church is called "the body of Christ." It is NOT a metaphor.
God the Son, the Spirit, and the Father are in every believer. We are brothers and sisters of Christ as a new race of God-bearing men and women.
These are realities, not metaphors or symbols.
Jesus Christ, the Son of God and the Holy Spirit and the Father are really IN YOU and are inseparable from you.

Jhn 14:17 “the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
Jhn 17:21-23... as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me;....

People have a tendency to think of these things "spiritually". But "spiritually" does not mean it isn't real or that it's a metaphor for something less profound. Something that is "spiritual" is just as real as something that is "physical."

IMO

iakov the fool