Giving up

[unred typo]

What could be more prideful then your objection? Have you thought about it? Probably not. You’re saying you have to work to keep salvation, that God either can’t save totally or won’t save totally which is contrary to the idea of Hebrews quoted above. You’re saying “I’m not really all that bad, sin isn’t as bad as JM makes it sound. I can do it on my own steam.â€Â

Actually, JM, I thought about it for years and even taught the same error that you are clinging to. I was mystified at how stupid people could be to not see what I thought scripture plainly said. The problem I had was the same one you display. I read scripture by going from supporting verse to supporting verse and glossing over any verse that contradicted what I believed to be the truth, my precious OSAS doctrine. One day, the Lord asked me why, if what I believed was the truth, did I have to reinvent everything Jesus said and have irreconcilable contradictions between faith and works and question which one really saved a person and kept them saved.

Gradually, he pried my stubborn fingers loose from the damnable lie. When I tried to say, “but Lord, it says ‘not of works’†he would remind me that whenever it says that God saved us by grace, that means that he didn’t have to do it at all, so whatever he allowed us to do for our salvation was not the reason he saved us. He made a plan to save us because he loves us and wants us to truly love him, not just want to escape hell. So our salvation, by whatever he deems necessary, is a real gift of grace.

When I tried to tell him that he had promised never to let go of me, he said that he would not force us to stay or obey against our will, unless he]/I] had a special purpose for a specifically chosen person, but it never would be for salvation. He said our sin only separated us when we don’t repent of it.

When I insisted that salvation was a free gift and if I had to do anything at all, that would mean it wasn’t free, he reminded me that he had freely provided the blood that would cleanse my sins so the only way I would not be clean and perfect before him would be if I refused to admit that my sin was a sin or refused to give it up. He said the free gift is the blood of Christ. He said I never had to add any more blood to his Son’s blood, to make it better able to pay for the sins I confessed and repented of. Salvation is the ability to be saved by washing each sin away in his blood, making us perfect in righteousness.

I whimpered that if I gave my body to be burned, wouldn’t that mean my death was somehow paying for my own salvation? He said even if I died for the cause of Christ, my blood would not have been required to pay for my sin, and that dying for Christ was a special honor that not all would be chosen for. Since physical death is not spiritual death, you can’t pay for eternal life by giving a life that is only worth a hundred years. Unfortunately, many believers will die physically because of self inflicted mortal wounds caused by morally deplorable unrepented sins and not for Christ at all.

In futile attempts to save my man-made doctrine, I reminded the Lord that he had chosen believers before the foundation of the world, and if that were so, how could any of those be lost. He said I should read those verses more carefully because not all places where the word ‘chosen’ is used is it meaning those ‘chosen in Christ,’ and never is it meaning an individual is ‘chosen for salvation.’ Those who live according to his commands are those who inherit the promises and are the ones he refers to as ‘his chosen ones.’ All those who faithfully continue to follow the commands of Christ are ‘in Christ.’

This sounded like the loop hole I had been searching for. I told him that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God so how can we be expected to obey Christ. We are but blind or dead sinners and all our sins have taken us away. Not so, God said there is no temptation that comes to you that you cannot resist and he would not allow you to be tempted above what you are able to resist and if you resist the devil, he must flee from you. Only when you don’t resist does he cause you to sin. So you see, what God hates is your reluctance to believe you can conquer Satan and your giving in to sin, and not repenting of these sins when he convicts your heart of them.

At this point in my argument with God, I ‘humbly’ informed him that he himself had said that all our righteousness was filthy rags and why would he possibly want us to give him such worthless, disgusting works. Again, he sent me to reread that portion of scripture. The righteousness that he despises is the hypocritical works of an external show of religious piety while harboring things like lust, pride, hatred, and murder in our hearts. This outward show of godliness without true godliness in our lives is the righteousness that he finds nauseating. He loves true works of love and faithful obedience and will reward those who diligently seek him.

Ah ha, I thought I had him. “But you said, ‘none seek after God, no ,not one!‘ and you repeated it in several places. Out of context again. He said that it is the fool and the unbeliever and the ungodly who say there is no God, who don’t seek after God. There is none righteous, among those who reject God. He said that he would not justify the wicked unless they repented of their sin, so why would he choose some to be saved who didn‘t repent. “But while we yet sinners, Christ died for us,†I triumphantly declared. No, God says that Jesus died that all could be saved but only those who repent and obey the gospel will inherit eternal life.

This conversation went on for weeks and months and years before I finally gave in and admitted I had been deceived by my own willingness to believe a lie, because the false gospel sounded so good and so much more comforting than the real gospel that Jesus preached. It was such an amazing (yet deceptive) gospel, who would not want it? It wasn’t just free insurance quotes and pie and chips but hellfire insurance for eternity, all paid for, sealed, signed and delivered with no strings attached, and not just pie and chips but all the glories of heaven, just for doing nothing more than accepting this free gift. The only problem with it, is that it isn‘t true. There is no free pie in the sky, no non-works salvation. You must work out your own salvation in the fear of God.

By the time God had trumped out all the rest of my arguments, that fear had gripped my soul and I knew I had not heard the true gospel. When Jesus preached the true gospel, the common people received it gladly but they were finding that eternal life was still available to them after the unmerciful condemnation of self-righteous Pharisees but I was finding my ‘utopian dream world’ crumbling away. Now it was evident that my eternal fate was truly in my hands and I had not taken my covenant with God seriously at all.

I had totally believed he would live up to his part of the bargain, but I had not committed myself to my part. I was supposed to repent and confess my sin as he revealed them on a daily basis, not when I became so filled with hate, greed or lust that I needed a spiritual lift out of the mire. I had turned a deaf ear to the poor and starving of the world around me and ignored the sick and dying in their beds of suffering. I had not forgiven those who trespassed against me. I had not turned the other cheek to insults. I was not following Christ, but a cunningly devised fable.

My struggle with holding onto OSAS ended when I surrendered my heart to him and repented of my false humility and slothfulness. He continues to guide and direct my days as I surrender more and more of my time and will to him. It is still not an easy walk with God when the burden of unconfessed sins weighs me down, but when I repent, he is always faithful to forgive as he promised. The new testament tells us of the new covenant in his blood where God offers that he will be Savior to those who will make him Lord. Don’t take his covenant in your mouth unless you mean it in your heart, or you will only make a fool of yourself. No fool seeks after God, no not one. Repent and surrender to God’s will and give up all those sugar coated lies that Satan is feeding you. The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Sorry for the length of this. It was a long, hard battle with the Lord over this issue of OSAS, and this is just a short synopsis of some of the arguments I had tried to use, but in the end, the Lord won and I gave up one of my favorite doctrines. I don’t expect you to give in to my assault on your cherished beliefs, but maybe my experience will help you recognize the Lord is speaking to your heart, and you might as well not argue with him.
:o

 

[cyberjosh]

An excellent demonstration of how works must go with salvation. Only one thing I don't understand though:

My struggle with holding onto OSAS ended when I surrendered my heart to him and repented of my false humility and slothfulness.

You just said that there is no such thing as work-free (fruitless) salvation. So how then does OSAS come into this? How could OSAS be wrong after you just said that? You are saying that workless (fruitless) salvation is not real true salvation because, "By their fruits you shall know them" (Matthew 7:20). The one who claims to be saved yet does not display fruits is a liar, a phony. So this does not disqualify OSAS per se, because true salvation will work itself out with fear and trembling, in other words it will persevere. Your perseverance is the sign of whether you were really saved or not, because those truely saved will persevere and sanctify themselves unto the end.

As I said in another thread, "And the reason that the Bible speaks so certainly of the saints having been purified is because any person who is truely saved will persevere and not apostacize, and will thus santify themselves with God's power. "Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready." (Revelation 19:7)"

I'm not 100% dead set on OSAS but when I struggled with it a while back God brought many of the verses to light. I never saw how much the Bible assumes the Christian will persevere, and how the Christian will bear good fruits if they are a good tree. Just my 2-cents.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Oscar3]

Un read\
In reading your post it really just affirms what you have said in other threads. Nothing new there. When you are trully born again, then you will understand. Until then, this book we call a bible is but a book of riddles to you. A place to start would be to embrace that Jesus is God.
Good luck in your continued search for the truth.

 

[mutzrein]

Un read\
When you are trully born again, then you will understand. Until then, this book we call a bible is but a book of riddles to you. A place to start would be to embrace that Jesus is God.

Oh good grief

 

[unred typo]

As I said in another thread, "And the reason that the Bible speaks so certainly of the saints having been purified is because any person who is truely saved will persevere and not apostacize, and will thus santify themselves with God's power. "Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready." (Revelation 19:7)"

I'm not 100% dead set on OSAS but when I struggled with it a while back God brought many of the verses to light. I never saw how much the Bible assumes the Christian will persevere, and how the Christian will bear good fruits if they are a good tree. Just my 2-cents.
God Bless, ~Josh

Thank you for putting your thoughts down here. I had a hard time understanding the connection between your proof verse and your conclusion. Praying about it, I think I know what the answer is now. The Bible speaks of the certainty of forgiveness of sins when any person repents, whether they are a true believer or a remorseful publican and it also stresses the uncertainty of any believer’s fate if they do not continue in their walk with Christ. The rejoicing is over those who do ‘make themselves ready’ for the wedding, and the Lord’s own words are full of severe warnings against not being ready for eternity. Most of his parables end in ‘weeping and gnashing of teeth,’ not ‘happily ever after.’

The present church teaching divides the world into two categories; the saved and the unsaved. That is what Jesus will do at the judgment, but until then, there are just obedient forgiven sinners, and disobedient, unrepentant sinners who need to repent and turn to following Christ. Paul makes it clear that we are all sinners in the same boat, awaiting judgment, and God does not play favorites in his judgment. Those who continue to wash their garments in the blood of the Lamb are the ones who have passed from death unto life. Those who wash their garments, run back outside to play, and get all dirty again, have returned to their wallowing. They can still repent and get washed again but their perseverance is up to them. I know that to say that there is no guarantee that anyone will persevere is as popular as telling children there is no Santa Claus, but it‘s the truth. It’s not easy being the bearer of bad news.

The good news is that you can change and if you make that effort, God is behind you every step of the way, making his presence known to encourage and strengthen you. The trick of Satan is “to bring many verses to light†to make you believe that you don’t need to make the effort, since ‘you’re already saved’ and you can go play now and still go refreshed and clean to the wedding when you’re called, confident that everything has already been done for you. When you pass from this life, you will have the rude awakening that it was a lie, and you’ll find yourself thrown from the wedding, having not put on the garment that was provided for you.

Putting on the righteousness of Christ involves forsaking your old ways and following the ways of Christ. If you start to follow, and quit, you have dropped your new pants and stepped back into your old filthy ways. How many times you can start to get dressed and quit before it’s too late to get dressed again, I don’t know. The best idea is to get dressed and stay dressed, and don’t be messing around while you’re waiting. Jesus said that he that is washed all over only needs to keep his feet clean. Unfortunately, even the most dedicated believers do step in it once in a while.

 

[unred typo]

Un read\ In reading your post it really just affirms what you have said in other threads. Nothing new there. When you are trully born again, then you will understand. Until then, this book we call a bible is but a book of riddles to you. A place to start would be to embrace that Jesus is God. Good luck in your continued search for the truth.

Not all of us have arrived at the ‘perfect understanding’ to which you have attained. It seems you have just stopped in to flaunt your superior knowledge in understanding mysteries beyond the reach of mere mortals still struggling to understand the contradictions of man made doctrines that have so divided and confused the people of God. Why don’t we just throw out the dirty bath water and keep the baby born at Bethlehem?

:smt023

 

[cyberjosh]

Thank you for putting your thoughts down here. I had a hard time understanding the connection between your proof verse and your conclusion. Praying about it, I think I know what the answer is now. The Bible speaks of the certainty of forgiveness of sins when any person repents, whether they are a true believer or a remorseful publican and it also stresses the uncertainty of any believer’s fate if they do not continue in their walk with Christ. The rejoicing is over those who do ‘make themselves ready’ for the wedding, and the Lord’s own words are full of severe warnings against not being ready for eternity. Most of his parables end in ‘weeping and gnashing of teeth,’ not ‘happily ever after.’

I didn't have alot of time when I posted that to give you a thorough set of biblical proofs, but my point there was that the true bride, the saints, the Church will have made herself ready by purifying themselves.

I will try to give you an in depth coverage from the Bible later but I will try to show you how God can keep those who are his from stumbling and how those who claim to be saved but bear bad fruit are liars, and how the Bible says that those who endure to the end will be saved and he who began a good work is faithful to complete it, and how those who recieve God's grace in earnest (and not in vain) use it to sanctify themselves and other such verses like 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 which says, "Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." You can have fruitless, vain belief in which you are not really saved like the seed sown on thorny ground.

But I will try to expand on all this later.

P.S. Oh, and I meant also to show you another post I made about Christians being saved and persevering but I had a hard time finding it when I posted last time. I finally found it this morning. Look at my exchange here with JayT and how we concluded it: Christians are on Probation. It starts about halfway down the second page and ends on the third.


God Bless,

~Josh

 

[unred typo]

I will be happy to read your posts, Josh, but please don’t think me critical of you if I examine them carefully. I’ve been fooled before so I am more wary than I was then. Some people are offended and some say I am too picky, but it’s a defense against deception on my part.

Since Satan is a deceiver, and his main weapon against God is the lie, we need to be sure to watch the subtle changes made to the meaning of God’s word. (We have an example of a former president who tried to change the meaning of even the word, ’is’.) If I wanted to confuse you about the message of salvation, I would make words that complicated the meaning, for instance; ‘justification,’ ‘sanctification,’ ‘edification,’ etc. Then, it would be easier to take your mind off the real meaning behind those words, and gradually substitute another meaning. By taking the word, ‘justified’, ’sealed’ and ’saved’ to mean a completed process that God does for you and not one that involves your work as well, the words have been gutted of their true meaning.

Every day words like belief, faith and works have been given a meaning that is totally alien to what they should be understood as. 'Belief in Christ' doesn’t even mean believing in his words, according to the new false version of the gospel, even though he IS the WORD made flesh. If I believe in my doctor, I believe that he is qualified to give me advice about my health. I will follow the ‘doctor’s orders’ if I want to be 'saved' from my illness or disease, but according to the new gospel, if I believe in Christ, I only believe what he did on the cross, not his commands that will save me from my sin. I do nothing but 'believe' I am saved to be 'saved.'

All of this is done with the use of scripture, as is Satan’s favorite method. A part of a chapter here, a sentence from Romans added to a thought from Ephesians, expanded with a concept drawn from Galatians, and now you have a ‘cunningly devised fable’ outfitted to deceive those who have not read enough and who are not willing or able to read and think at the same time.

:roll:

 

[unred typo]

I forgot another group; those who are so clever and well read and love the lie so much that they can also construct their own cunningly devised fables and make the lie of Satan even more 'scriptural.' These are the ones who make a real effort to deceive themselves first of all and are the hardest to convert to the true gospel because they willingly choose to believe a lie.
:robot:

 

[cyberjosh]

I understand your caution unread. And I am not out to decieve I have been where you are and am very careful of my doctrine. I'll try to get all the meterial compiled that I want to show you soon. I'm working on it.

If I wanted to confuse you about the message of salvation, I would make words that complicated the meaning, for instance; ‘justification,’ ‘sanctification,’ ‘edification,’ etc.

I understand what you are saying but I don't use cover words for cheap concepts, but I do use those words for their rich theological meaning as shown in the Bible so I cannot and will not avoid using them. And if you wish I can even delve into the meaning of some of these words, for example sanctification, consecration, and holiness in Hebrew all stem from the same word and it means "set apart". And for practical applications this means for us to be "set apart" from the world unto God. "Be Holy (set apart) for I am Holy (set apart)." We do that by cleansing ourselves with God's power (grace) that he gives us by his Spirit (in a process called sanctification). "Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." (2 Corinthians 7:1)

But at any rate I know the meaning of those words and do not use them shallowly.

 

[cyberjosh]

I found the material I was looking for: a discussion I had with several people once on OSAS and Salvation. I copied and pasted it into a word document but didn't paste their screennames over so I'll just put any person's response other than mine in bold (I might have to call them "first poster" "another poster" sometimes for clarification), and when they quote me I'll put it in a quote box. It's a tad long but hopefully this will help you see my position and arguement. All my statements are non-bolded.

-------------------------------------------------

We still have our own fallen subjective righteousness through the work of sanctification, that stands apart from the objective righteousness of Christ which accomplishes the work of salvation for us. And recognizing that, is a key component is understanding the doctrine of imputation.

Right. I believe that this is commonly called positional sanctification and progressive sanctification.

And some preacher sold them this line of crap about how we all sin every day and you can never lose your salvation once you get saved. So what that they murdered someone or robbed a bank or raped a woman? We all sin! There is no need to repent because they "said the prayer" once, so they now have the imputed righteousness of Christ to cover this sin which they MUST committ.

And there's the real punch line! You're right in making your point, but what happens is that these people which say the prayer, yet utilize no power in their life show strong evidence of never having come to saving faith in Christ because many can have an intellectual ascent of Christ's diety and believe the simple fact that he died (per James) and many can receive the Word and change for a while yet fall away (per Jesus -parable of seed & sower) yet they never reached the point of belief which is an active response to God's grace to die to self and be reborn (then ushering us into salvation).

And the funny thing is if we are truely saved, we will automatically begin and desire to sanctify ourselves because of our new nature (it becomes our will to act on it), yet how much we sanctify ourselves is in question pertaining to how much you are progressing in the Christian life and not giving into sin. The prime issue in this is endurance. You can hit dead spots where you aren't getting any progress but the point is you keep on fighting it no matter how much you fail and sin along the way because it is in your nature to become like Jesus. Now there is peril for not progressing as many passages in the NT point out, such as the possibility of having your works burned and receiving no or little reward (though we still be saved). "If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." (1 Corinthians 3:15).

So I believe this is what is in view with how "positional sanctification" (given to us by Jesus) and "progressive sanctification" (our job - which positional sanctification empowers us to do through grace) correlate. Progressive sanctification doesn't ensure our salvation, rather it evidences it.

It's the ones that walk the line and never seem to sanctify themselves that really concern me. I can't say for sure for those people (who will probably have all their works burned if they are indeed saved). To such a person I would ask out of uncertainty "Are you sure you are really saved?" But as for the people who you described in the jail, that nature is completely contrary to the Spirit of Christ and thus (IMO) is impossible for them to have been saved and willfully murder and do such sins. So I stress that active change in behavoir evidences the actual nature of the saved person.

many can receive the Word and change for a while yet fall away (per Jesus -parable of seed > & sower) yet they never reached the point of belief which is an active response to God's grace to die to self and be reborn (then ushering us into salvation).

Actually, Jesus said that these people believed for a while and then fell away. So yes, they did believe unto salvation and then perished.

James used the same word, yet made a distinction that one was real and the other not. Even the demons believe and tremble.

The thing is that people also attribute belief to an event rather than a state of mind, those who believe (active, continuing) will have eternal life thus shows a level of perseverance before the Word comes into fruition in the heart and saves, unless rather we are first saved at confession of Jesus as Lord and made to persevere through our new nature as a result (which ever the case may be). And what ensures our future upholding of belief is that we are given the new nature to continue that genuine initial belief (though it might first have to be established over time – though I believe it can also happen if one's life is completely changed instantly in revelation of Jesus' sacrifice - thus showing the genuineness of accepting the reality of it) in Christ.

The reasons the demons will not be saved though is because though they yet believe (more as a matter of fact rather than willfully - because they can actually see God and his angels) they will not change their nature (and cannot as far as I'm concerned – no such thing as redemption for demons).

But as for the people who you described in the jail, that nature is completely contrary to the Spirit of Christ and thus is (IMO) impossible for them to have been saved and willfully murder and do such sins.

I think we can all agree that Christians are capable of committing sins, even grievous sins like murder. "But if we confess our sins, God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins..." So, IMO, a person can get saved and then at some point, commit murder, but then confess and be forgiven.
But it seems as if you just said that if he commits a murder, then he was never saved in the first place. So here this guy is, sure that he got born again at some point, but now you've told him it was all fake all along and he obviously wasn't saved or else he wouldn't have murdered. So if he wasn't really saved then, how can he know he is now?

What I'm saying is that you're not going to want to do those things any longer, and if you do (and I'm thinking most of these will have to be out of weakness or ignorance) then you will be grieved, yes, but none-the-less condemn the sin because of your new nature.

You're right in pointing out that I can't tell you for sure the condition of their heart but I'll be darned if a true Christian can be a practicing murderer, because one of the evidences of salvation according to the Bible is love for the brethren and love for our enemies.

Is it alright if I base my beliefs on the Bible rather than either of Calvinism or Arminianism? Neither is comprehensive enough.

That's right.....Come over to the Baptist/Biblicist side.......

Well please don't tag a Baptist banner on me either because their common employment of "once saved always saved" is too naive in nature because they define "saved" too loosely. And also alot of pastors are at fault when they try to lead people to Jesus by just telling them to "believe" in Jesus with out explaining what that entails because belief in the Bible includes obedience (both the Hebrew usage of the word in the OT and the theological use in the NT). So if someone gets an invitation to "believe" in Jesus without a call to actually repent and follow Jesus, then this type of "belief", James says (which he calls "without works"), is no better than what the Demons do.

So if someone gets an invitation to "believe" in Jesus without a call to actually repent and follow Jesus, then this type of belief, James says, is no better than what the Demons do.

First Poster: You are absolutely correct, It's something that my church is opposed to very strongly, the people need to understand that they are a sinner, they need to repent, they need to not only accept Christ, but they need to acknowledge that they are leaving their sin, now they may fall back into sin a week later, but unless they repent and turn away from their sin, I don't believe they actually accepted Christ.


Another Poster: That's one place where I think that alot of churches fail, they read the Great Commission go and witness to the lost. While that is an important part, the Great Commission is for us to go and make disciples. We aren't just called to witness to the lost and then leave them after they've prayed a prayer. We need to come beside them and help them grow in the faith.

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I don't have alot to say at the moment on sanctification, except that I disagree that our progressive sanctification does not effect our salvation.

In a way it does, but then again it doesn't of its own accord. It's hard to explain because our salvation, positional, and progressive sanctification are all tied together as if one compliments and assumes the other. Many verses state simply (or even just plain assume) that believers will persevere (1 John especially), taking it for granted, though obviously an entire doctrine is wrapped up in the simple statement. If you study you will see that God will work through us so we can sanctify ourselves and persevere. We see this dual role in Philippians 2:12-13.

In 1 Cor 15:1-2 Paul says:
"Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. "

Also in 2 Cor 6:1 he says:

"We also urge you not to receive the grace of God in vain", a similar warning to that in Hebrews chapter 10 of rejecting the grace hearing the Gospel and of God's calling.

Also 1 John is very adamant on this point of the evidence of our nature by our actions:
Chapter 3:
4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.
9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Now is he saying that a Christian won't sin ever (though definitely not excusing it)? No! John said earlier, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8) The emphasis is on a continual state, and one who "practices" it regularly - as a lifestyle. So those who live this lifestyle of sin cannot claim to be saved. Obviously this would describe the supposed apostate (one claiming to have salvation). Thus this shows that they never were in the light in the first place.

John goes on to say in chapter 3:

"10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.
14We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death.
24The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. "

This describes the believer as a practicer of righteousness who keeps his commandments by abiding in the Spirit, as He abides in us. The apostate must do the opposite by definition as one who rejects God's grace, which can come by just hearing the Gospel and God's calling.


Notice the condition that Paul uses..."IF you hold fast". So he does not assume that true Christians will infallibly persevere.

Other verses do though, so it is correct to see him modifying the "you were saved†statement with a condition saying "but only if you indeed hold fast" (because that is an evidence of being saved - per 1 John), "unless of course you believed in vain" (as James talks about).

He says that they will ultimately arrive on the other shore on the condition that they hold fast which would seem to imply that it is possible NOT to hold fast and to be lost.

Rather they would loose the opportunity to accept the grace of the Gospel and utilize it (by receiving it in vain - thus not saved). This was the author of Hebrew's admonition to the Jews who had been preached the Gospel (whether they were all Christians or not is questioned), he's saying “now that you've heard it don't reject itâ€Â. Hold on to it.

Note what 1 John 2:19 also says: "They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. "

Also please take note of the other verses I quoted from 1 John.

----------------------------

I'll have to come back later when I have nothing else to do and post those other verses. But also remember that the Bible says "He is faithful to complete the good work he has started in us." And in Galatians after speaking quite confidently of the "brethren", that they had been saved and received the Spirit, Paul then reveals that he had been speaking ideally by then thereafter voicing his doubt over them, twice (Galatians_4:11, 20). The reason he does this is because he cannot cast doubt on the title of a true "brother in Christ" or the doctrine that if you are truly saved that you really will have the Spirit, but then by showing his doubts the only conclusion to draw is that his doubts are over whether they really are "brethren".

Similarly in 1 Corinthians Paul's focus is on emphasizing large scale unity in the Church because the Corinthians had been divided over the issue of their gifts, yet in the middle of his of his definite calling of all believers to be of one mind he tells them to stay away from the anyone "named a brother" who practices immorality (an evidence that one was not saved) in 1 Cor. 5:11, and some translations just render it "so-called brother". This is the same for false prophets in the Church. So I believe that there were people who were believed to be saved (and might have even thought themselves to be saved) yet were not at all, yet it was hard to weed them out because they called themselves "brother", as also do false prophets who deceive the true brethren of the Church.

Discussing OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) drives some of the posters here into a posting frenzy, while sending some of the others here into hiding.

I prefer a calmer, firmer middle position on that.... no frenzy...and yet no desire to hide either.

And I'm always very careful when it comes to pushing denominational beliefs, I prefer operating from the Bible rather than the Church, because the Church has unfortunately split into factions rather than becoming the united Church that it is supposed to be. Nothing against the Church of course for I am part of its very body, but I found that in division there has been proliferation of error.

As for this particular subject I admit I do not know all the ins and outs of security in Christ, and I have had such an open mind on this that I have switched from a naive holding of OSAS, to believing in apostacy once saved is possible, and am now leaning back, yet to a more conservative and carefully defined OSAS in which I believe the definition for "salvation" cannot be thrown around flippantly at all, over the course of many years of study and spiritual maturity. I don't claim infallibility but I prefer to reason on the subject to come to a conclusion.

Not to keep bringing up OSAS, but if you truly believe that, than to be "saved" is a fairly simple objective. Sure, you may believe there are constant battles to remain pure before the Lord, but by default, it's a done deal, nothing can send you to Hell after you've 'believed in your heart and confessed with you mouth'.

Maybe I need to make some clarifications on my current position, as I am still studying this and haven't completely made up my mind (though I am leaning toward OSAS). The reason that I am leaning toward OSAS is because there are verses that say that the Lord is able to keep you and also that it is he that works in us. Now the current issue is: "Is this true for all believers or just those who endure through faith who allow God to keep them?" If the latter then I guess you could call the Bible's view semi-OSAS because if that is true it would be possible for people to be always saved once they are saved while for others not.

But Clavinism and Arminianism take almost black and white views on this. And the thing is that Arminianism can go too far as to say that God can't keep you at all, and that it's all up to us, yet this clearly contradicts Scriptures that say things to the contrary such as "He who is able to keep us from stumbling" and "complete the good work he began in you." And even if we end up agreeing that loosing salvation is possible one would have to admit that in Biblical terms it would be quite difficult and not by accident at all. You have to reject alot of God's grace and patience to get to that point, if it is indeed possible to do so.


One poster to another poster: You have many questions that you still haven’t replied to.

Reply: Actually, I thought Josh addressed some of the points quite well, even if I didn't acknowledge it.

 

[francisdesales]

Actually, JM, I thought about it for years and even taught the same error that you are clinging to. I was mystified at how stupid people could be to not see what I thought scripture plainly said. The problem I had was the same one you display. I read scripture by going from supporting verse to supporting verse and glossing over any verse that contradicted what I believed to be the truth, my precious OSAS doctrine. One day, the Lord asked me why, if what I believed was the truth, did I have to reinvent everything Jesus said and have irreconcilable contradictions between faith and works and question which one really saved a person and kept them saved.

What an amazing post! I thoroughly enjoyed reading it. I will be saving that one to remind me of the tremendous difficulties OSAS people have in coming to what Christ truly taught us. God be praised that you were able to see His Word - we humans have a bad habit of substituting our word for His Word.

Brother in Christ

 

[cyberjosh]

What an amazing post! I thoroughly enjoyed reading it. I will be saving that one to remind me of the tremendous difficulties OSAS people have in coming to what Christ truly taught us. God be praised that you were able to see His Word - we humans have a bad habit of substituting our word for His Word.

Well I'm in the process of speaking with him about that now. We're not really debating at this point but he does seem willing to listen, which I admire.

If you would like to see my view of OSAS please read the discussion (though a little long) that I just posted above. Read my points, and please don't just blow me off. I tried to use many Scriptural proofs. If you have a genuine objection I would love to hear it as part of a reasonable discussion. I think you will see in that discussion that I am not ignorant to the Scriptures and actualy am not 100% dead set on OSAS, though at the present I lean towards it, or at the very least I can see that the Bible supports "semi-OSAS" as I put it in that discussion if not complete OSAS. The ones who calim to have salvation then use their "liberty" to live in sin don't seem to have ever really recieved liberty and redemption in the first place. I try to discuss that in depth above. I would love it if you could give me some feedback on that discussion.

Thanks,

~Josh

 

[JM]

Actually, JM, I thought about it for years and even taught the same error that you are clinging to.

The error unred is suggesting I make has yet to be proven as a legitimate error. After countless threads on this topic the illogical conclusion unred has tried to force upon us leaves us with a God who is not Triune in nature. To think God the Father denies the prayers of God the Son is blasphemous and can only lead to a quasi-Trinitian or Oneness theology.

I was mystified at how stupid people could be to not see what I thought scripture plainly said.

Ahhhh, some personal insight into unread’s views of others who disagree with him. Are we stupid? I’m not “mystified†nor do I consider those of different opinions to be “stupid.â€Â

The problem I had was the same one you display.

No comment needed.

I read scripture by going from supporting verse to supporting verse and glossing over any verse that contradicted what I believed to be the truth, my precious OSAS doctrine.

Nice try.

Before I heard of John Calvin, before I knew what the acronym for OSAS was; I was a believer in God’s sovereign Grace and Will. It was the teachings of Jesus thru out the NT and Epistles that cemented my belief in God’s rule. The idea of OSAS is not accurate, by the way, and doesn’t express what I believe, once again, you build a straw man. I doubt you’ve even looked into “preservation of the saints†and what Calvinists actually believe on this subject…have you? Once saved always saved is NOT the same thing as the “P†from the TULIP. By being hasty and looking down your nose at Calvinistic theology you were too quick to assume these beliefs are one and the same, they’re not.

I’m getting tied of doing research you should be doing so you accurately attack what I actually believe, your laziness to do the research is telling, if what you believe considering “our work needed for salvation†is true…God helps us!

Quote: This doctrine is clearly taught in these passages, John 10:28,29; Romans 11:29; Phil 1:6; 1 Peter 1:5. It, moreover, follows from a consideration of (1) the immutability of the divine decrees (Jeremiah 31:3; Matthew 24:22-24; Acts 13:48; Romans 8:30); (2) the provisions of the covenant of grace (Jeremiah 32:40; John 10:29; 17:2-6); (3) the atonement and intercession of Christ (Isaiah 53:6,11; Matthew 20:28; 1 Peter 2:24; John 11:42; 17:11,15,20; Romans 8:34); and (4) the indwelling of the Holy Ghost (John 14:16; 2co 1:21,22; 5:5; Ephesians 1:14; 1 John 3:9). 1 Samuel 2:9; Nehemiah 9:16-19; Psalm 31:23, 32:7,23,28-33, 38, 84:5-7, 89:30-33, 94:14, 97:10, 121:7, 125:1; Proverbs 2:8; Isaiah 40:30, 54:4-10; Jeremiah 32:38-42; Matthew 18:6, 12-14, 24:22-24; Luke 1:74, 22:32; John 3:36, 4:13, 5:24, 6:37-40, 51, 8:31, 10:4, 8, 27-29, 17:11, 15; Romans 6:1-4, 7:24-8:4, 28-39, 11:29, 14:14; 1 Corinthians 1:4-9, 3:15, 10:13; 2 Corinthians 1:22, 5:5; Ephesians 1:11-14, 4:30; Philippians 1:6; Colossians 3:1-4; 1 Thessalonians 5:23; 2 Thessalonians 3:3-5; 2 Timothy 1:12, 4:18; Hebrews 3:14, 7:25, 10:14, 36-39, 13:5; 1 Peter 1:3-5; 2 Peter 3:8; 1 John 2:19, 3:9, 5:4, 13, 18; Jude 1, 24. [end quote]

Quote: Perseverance of the Saints does not mean "once saved always saved". This corruption of the doctrine has been popular in recent years, but has never been a true representation of the doctrine. "Once saved always saved" is more keenly given the name "Perseverance of the sinner" instead of "the saint". For it teaches that man can be saved by Christ and then sin habitually, do whatever he wants, and then still "persevere to the end". Perseverance of the saints does not teach this. Perseverance of the saints teaches that once God has renewed the heart of a sinner through the application of the redemption wrought by Christ upon the cross, he will continue to be saved and show forth the fruits of that salvation. The sinner perseveres because of Christ, but he continually shows himself as one who has been changed by Christ. God has saved the individual and will sanctify him until the end when he is ultimately glorified, and in heaven. It does not mean man has a license to sin. Those who think they have a license to sin are not changed and saved by grace. They are still in sin. Those who are saved by grace and changed, desire to show forth the fruits of that salvation. God motions the heart to good work, and continues that good work to the end. John 6:37-39, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."Phil. 1:6, "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:"1 Thess. 5:23-24, "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it."2 Tim. 4:18, "And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen."1 Peter 1:23, "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever."Romans 8:29, "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."phesians 2:10, "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." [end quote]

One day, the Lord asked me why, if what I believed was the truth, did I have to reinvent everything Jesus said and have irreconcilable contradictions between faith and works and question which one really saved a person and kept them saved.

You anecdotal story is cute and may give a few charismatic a warm fuzzy feeling, but you can’t prove this conversation took place and it doesn’t line up with what scripture does teach on the subject. Was it an “angel of light?†Beware.

Gradually, he pried my stubborn fingers loose from the damnable lie.

If what you say is true concerning salvation and a believer can lose it and then find, etc. then how was God able to supersede your will and pride so you could see it was a “damnable lie?†This is where you’re not making sense. One instance your telling us we can choose God from our own fallen sinful will and be saved [temporally] and how God wouldn’t force us to remained saved, we could walk away from the whole deal…yet, you claim God wasn’t willing you believe a “damnable lie†and thee against your will and pride, opened you eyes? God forced you to do something? Do you honestly believe those who profess preservation by the will and power of God are damned? You did write that it was a “damnable lie.â€Â

When I tried to say, “but Lord, it says ‘not of works’†he would remind me that whenever it says that God saved us by grace, that means that he didn’t have to do it at all, so whatever he allowed us to do for our salvation was not the reason he saved us.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

If we are not saved by works and our works do nothing toward our justification, if we are saved by faith, then works must be the fruit of salvation. This has already been posted in other threads, this is just another anecdotal story in place of scripture or is this an admission that God wasn’t willing to let you perish and gently guided you or rather preserved you in salvation? Suppose what you say is true, if I follow the Law perfectly and did everything the Law demands, would God then owe me salvation? When it’s all said and done, when I reach the judgement seat, could I then say, “Lord I did all you asked of me and then some, you owe me!â€Â

He made a plan to save us because he loves us and wants us to truly love him, not just want to escape hell. So our salvation, by whatever he deems necessary, is a real gift of grace.

Glad you brought it up. What is it that God deems necessary for our salvation beyond the Blood of Christ? Our works? Christ PLUS our works equals salvation? That would mean Christ’s death was only a “way†to salvation, the works actually sealed the deal.

When I tried to tell him that he had promised never to let go of me, he said that he would not force us to stay or obey against our will, unless he]/I] had a special purpose for a specifically chosen person, but it never would be for salvation. He said our sin only separated us when we don’t repent of it.

I have trouble believing you talked with God, the things you report being said are contrary to what we find in scripture. For instance, when you “tried to tell†God “that he had promised never to let go†you, maybe without you knowing, you quoted John 10:28, 29.

Look it up.

You quoted to whomever you were talking to scripture and they contradicted scripture. Angel of light?

When I insisted that salvation was a free gift and if I had to do anything at all, that would mean it wasn’t free,

That’s right, if you have to earn it, it’s not free.

he reminded me that he had freely provided the blood that would cleanse my sins so the only way I would not be clean and perfect before him would be if I refused to admit that my sin was a sin or refused to give it up.

I suggest that unred has been bewitched by this being he has been talking to.

Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

That is what unred the whole point of unred’s post.

Here’s a word for you, “propitiation.â€Â

There are four important fundamentals in understanding this term [as listed by John Owen]:
1. An offence to be taken away.
2. A person offended who needs to be pacified.
3. An offending person; one guilty of the offence.
4. A sacrifice or some other means of making atonement for the offence.

Propitiated sins cannot be atoned for. Once the offer for our sins has been made, there “REMAINETH NO FURTHER SACRIFICE FOR SIN!†Hebrews 10:26

He said the free gift is the blood of Christ. He said I never had to add any more blood to his Son’s blood, to make it better able to pay for the sins I confessed and repented of.

What are you trying to say here? You seem confussed.

We are justified by FAITH, but you’re saying we are justified by faith and works.

Salvation is the ability to be saved by washing each sin away in his blood, making us perfect in righteousness.

Yes, and who is the one who performs this act? You?

I whimpered that if I gave my body to be burned, wouldn’t that mean my death was somehow paying for my own salvation? He said even if I died for the cause of Christ, my blood would not have been required to pay for my sin, and that dying for Christ was a special honor that not all would be chosen for.

Wait. Did you have a choice in the matter? How dare God transgress the sacred boundary of your will and force you to do anything for Him, let alone die for Him. You theology is inconsistent.

Since physical death is not spiritual death, you can’t pay for eternal life by giving a life that is only worth a hundred years.

Perhaps a few verses to clear up this strange teaching? Where are you getting this stuff?

Unfortunately, many believers will die physically because of self inflicted mortal wounds caused by morally deplorable unrepented sins and not for Christ at all.

Yah, what’s your point?

In futile attempts to save my man-made doctrine,

If this was really God you were speaking with, you seem to show little respect, it seems God can’t even control a conversation with one of His creatures.

I reminded the Lord that he had chosen believers before the foundation of the world,

Again, you quote scripture, “Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:†and “Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.â€Â

and if that were so, how could any of those be lost. He said I should read those verses more carefully because not all places where the word ‘chosen’ is used is it meaning those ‘chosen in Christ,’ and never is it meaning an individual is ‘chosen for salvation.’

"But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" 2 Thessalonians 2:13
To quote A.W. Pink, “Language could not be more explicit.â€Â

(Rom 8:30) Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Let me break in down for you:
1. God predestined
2. God called
3. God justified
4. God glorify

Seems simple and contrary to what you’re saying.

Those who live according to his commands are those who inherit the promises and are the ones he refers to as ‘his chosen ones.’ All those who faithfully continue to follow the commands of Christ are ‘in Christ.’

See the explanation of “preservation of the saints.â€Â

This sounded like the loop hole I had been searching for. I told him that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God so how can we be expected to obey Christ. We are but blind or dead sinners and all our sins have taken us away. Not so, God said there is no temptation that comes to you that you cannot resist and he would not allow you to be tempted above what you are able to resist and if you resist the , he must flee from you.

Christ, the real Christ, said, “that which is born of flesh is flesh†and adding latter in John 8 that we are “servants of sin†until set free from this bondage until by Christ. The sin that tempts believers can be resisted, but there is nothing in the flesh of the unbeliever that allows for them to break the chains of sin that enslave them.

Only when you don’t resist does he cause you to sin. So you see, what God hates is your reluctance to believe you can conquer and your giving in to sin, and not repenting of these sins when he convicts your heart of them.

The reluctance to repent means you are still in rebellion against God, if you are saved you’ll be chastised and brought to repentance, if not…you’re not saved. This doesn’t mean the believer never falls into sin, it means the believer never falls into sin without being restored to repentance.

At this point in my argument with God, I ‘humbly’ informed him that he himself had said that all our righteousness was filthy rags and why would he possibly want us to give him such worthless, disgusting works. Again, he sent me to reread that portion of scripture. The righteousness that he despises is the hypocritical works of an external show of religious piety while harboring things like , pride, hatred, and murder in our hearts. This outward show of godliness without true godliness in our lives is the righteousness that he finds nauseating. He loves true works of love and faithful obedience and will reward those who diligently seek him.

And these works are performed only by those who are faithful, there faith produces this fruit because they are justified by the Blood of Christ already. What’s nauseating is your ability to ignore this point which has been made repeatedly.

Ah ha, I thought I had him. “But you said, ‘none seek after God, no ,not one!‘ and you repeated it in several places.

Yes, and it reads in many different ways thru out scripture, which you ignore.

Isaiah 53:6 all have gone astray and each has gone astray
Isaiah 64:6 even righteous deed like a polluted garment
Romans 3:9-12 all are under the power of sin
James 3:2, 6, 8 unable to bridle any passion
1 John 1:8, 10 if we say we have no sin we are self-deceived
Job 14:4 impossible to bring a clean thing out of an unclean
Jeremiah 13:23 Cannot change ourselves
Matthew 7:16-18 a bad tree cannot bear good fruit
Matthew 12:33 Must make the tree good for fruit to be acceptable
John 6:44 No one can come apart from being drawn
John 6:65 Coming must be granted by the father
Romans 11:35-36 We cannot give a gift to God
1 Corinthians 4:7 If you are different, it is because God made you that way
2 Corinthians 3:5 We are not sufficient of ourselves (this deals with Paul's call
to the ministry primarily, of course)
2 Timothy 3:7-8 never able to come to a knowledge of truth
Titus 1:12-13 Cretians are always liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
Titus 1:15-16 even their mind and conscience is defiled... reprobate
James 2:10-11 offense in one point of the law renders one guilty of the entire law
James 3:12 no fountain can bring forth both salt water and fresh.
Psalm 22:29 none can keep alive his own soul

Out of context again.

Hardly.

He said that it is the fool and the unbeliever and the ungodly who say there is no God, who don’t seek after God. There is none righteous, among those who reject God. He said that he would not justify the wicked unless they repented of their sin, so why would he choose some to be saved who didn‘t repent. “But while we yet sinners, Christ died for us,†I triumphantly declared. No, God says that Jesus died that all could be saved but only those who repent and obey the gospel will inherit eternal life.

More context from the whole scripture is important. I know unred doesn’t like these lists, but God chooses to justify only those He chooses to justify based on nothing we do.

Deuteronomy 10:14-15 God set his heart in love = chose
Psalm 33:12 God chooses his own heritage
Psalm 65:4 Chosen to dwell in his courts
Psalm 106:5 God's chosen ones
Haggai 2:23 God chose Zerubbabel
Matthew 11:27 Only the one the Son chooses know the Father
Matthew 22:14 Many are called, but few are chosen
Matthew 24:22, 24, 31 days shortened for the elect the elect cannot
be deceived gathering of the elect
Luke 18:7 God will vindicate his elect
Romans 8:28-30 Called according to God's purpose
Romans 8:33 These (28-30) are God's elect
Colossians 3:12 God's chosen ones
1 Thessalonians 5:9 God has destined us to obtain salvation
Titus 1:1-2 to further the faith of God's elect
1 Peter 1:1,2 the exiles who were chosen and destined
1 Peter 2:8,9 some stumble because they were destined to,
but others are a chosen race who have been called.
Revelation 17:14 Those with Christ are called and chosen and faithful
Mark 13:20 God did the choosing
Ephesians 1:4 It was done before the foundation of the world
Revelation 13:8 God chose people, not just a plan
Revelation 17:8 God chose people, not just a plan
Romans 9:11-13 God's choice not based on anything creaturely
Romans 9:16 Not based on man's will or man's exertion
Romans 10:20 God found by those who did NOT seek him
1 Corinthians 1:27-29 God chose the foolish, weak, low and despised
specifically so that no flesh could boast that ANY PART of their salvation was from them.

2 Timothy 1:9 not by our works, but because of his own purpose
Ephesians 1:11-12 Works are the result not the cause of election
Ephesians 2:10 Works are the result not the cause of election
John 15:16 Apostles did not choose Christ, but he chose.
Acts 13:48 Those who were ordained believed.
Acts 18:27 Those who believed did so through grace
Philippians 1:29 Granted to us to believe
Philippians 2:12-13 God wills his pleasure in us
1 Thessalonians 1:4-5 Because chosen, the word came in
power of Holy Spirit and not just words of men.
2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 God chose them from the beginning to be saved.
James 2:5 God has chosen the poor to become rich to faith

This conversation went on for weeks and months and years before I finally gave in and admitted I had been deceived by my own willingness to believe a lie, because the false gospel sounded so good and so much more comforting than the real gospel that Jesus preached. It was such an amazing (yet deceptive) gospel, who would not want it?

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

The false Gospel you bought into is based on the works of flesh to maintain salvation.

It wasn’t just free insurance quotes and pie and chips but hellfire insurance for eternity, all paid for, sealed, signed and delivered with no strings attached, and not just pie and chips but all the glories of heaven, just for doing nothing more than accepting this free gift. The only problem with it, is that it isn‘t true. There is no free pie in the sky, no non-works salvation. You must work out your own salvation in the fear of God.

You keep writing this but fail to provide anything worthy of intellectual consideration for believers. You fail to provide scriptural proof for these fanciful conversations. So, instead of trusting Christ to perform the good work in and thru you, being the author and finisher of our faith, you cancelled that “insurance†for something you hope to maintain yourself by your own hands. Good luck with that.

By the time God had trumped out all the rest of my arguments, that fear had gripped my soul and I knew I had not heard the true gospel. When Jesus preached the true gospel, the common people received it gladly but they were finding that eternal life was still available to them after the unmerciful condemnation of self-righteous Pharisees but I was finding my ‘utopian dream world’ crumbling away. Now it was evident that my eternal fate was truly in my hands and I had not taken my covenant with God seriously at all.

Wow, you wrote, “when Jesus preached the true gospel, the common people received it gladly…†But you admit you didn’t receive it gladly and “fear had gripped my soul…†You must be above the common people or haven’t received the Gospel, which is it? To introduce the Pharisees is to show how little you understand what the Pharisees believed, they insisted you could hold earn salvation by works of the Law…sounds a lot like what you’ve been posting about.

I had totally believed he would live up to his part of the bargain, but I had not committed myself to my part.

Then you didn’t understand the idea of Covenant or you weren’t saved.

I was supposed to repent and confess my sin as he revealed them on a daily basis,

Agreed. I’ve never suggested different.

not when I became so filled with hate, greed or that I needed a spiritual lift out of the mire. I had turned a deaf ear to the poor and starving of the world around me and ignored the sick and dying in their beds of suffering. I had not forgiven those who trespassed against me. I had not turned the other cheek to insults. I was not following Christ, but a cunningly devised fable.

Again, you didn’t understand the idea of Covenant or you weren’t saved. It also seems that you’re so angry at the Gospel you can’t see the forest for the trees anymore. You are so obsessed, like the Pharisee, with proving your own righteousness you fail to acknowledge God’s will in your life.

My struggle with holding onto OSAS

You were antinomian buddy and failed to understand God persevering His people thru trail, labour, repentance, etc.

ended when I surrendered my heart to him and repented of my false humility and slothfulness.

Faith without works is dead, you’re admitting you didn’t have a faith worth anything.

He continues to guide and direct my days as I surrender more and more of my time and will to him.

See “perseverance of the saints.â€Â

It is still not an easy walk with God when the burden of unconfessed sins weighs me down, but when I repent, he is always faithful to forgive as he promised. The new testament tells us of the new covenant in his blood where God offers that he will be Savior to those who will make him Lord. Don’t take his covenant in your mouth unless you mean it in your heart, or you will only make a fool of yourself. No fool seeks after God, no not one. Repent and surrender to God’s will and give up all those sugar coated lies that is feeding you. The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

What unred has done is common. He has confused once saved always saved with the historic Calvinistic and Reformed doctrine of perseverance of the saints…they are different. It’s also common to find thru out unred’s posts evidence that he lives up to his name, he is truly “unread†when it comes to offering a critic of Reformed thought and theology, providing classic straw men from the anticalvinist mob. What is the real issue we are dealing with? Does God have the power to save His people to the uttermost? Why won’t unred debate me in a formal debate setting?

Sorry for the length of this. It was a long, hard battle with the Lord over this issue of OSAS, and this is just a short synopsis of some of the arguments I had tried to use, but in the end, the Lord won and I gave up one of my favorite doctrines. I don’t expect you to give in to my assault on your cherished beliefs, but maybe my experience will help you recognize the Lord is speaking to your heart, and you might as well not argue with him.

No apology is needed; just don’t accuse me or anyone else of trying to drown the facts with lengthy posts, as you did to me in the past. When it comes to what we believe is the truth details are required to express what we believe. In the last few lines it seems like you’re boasting, you seem to be saying you don’t suffer from spiritual pride like the rest of us who are unable to repent and allowed God to win. You are showing immense pride in yourself by declaring yourself better then those you disagree with. The supposed conversation you had with what you believe is God is troubling. I’ve shown in a few places, the being you spoke with contradicted a plain reading of scripture and often asked you to re-read scripture according to it’s instructions…providing an isolated context of each passage outside of the total value of scripture. I have no advice for you in this situation, I don’t know how much you believe is true or how much is hyperbole, etc. Find a good Bible believing Pastor, sit down and talk these things out.

~JM~

 

[JM]

PS: Sorry for any typo’s or spelling mistakes, I’ve been pressed for time with Christmas and all.

 

[Oscar3]

JM
That was classic. Thank you.

Perhaps this will help explain unread a little.

I stumbled onto this while checking out other forums. It seems like he was on the right track and the devil plucked him out. He was seed that fell on rocky ground


I once considered myself a Fundamental in my beliefs. In order to be saved, I believed that a person had to believe certain things about God in order to be saved. They had to believe without a doubt in their heart of heart that Jesus, the second person of the trinity, had died for their sins and that nothing more could be added to this act of salvation for the entire world but His death applied only specifically to those who truly believed in these facts.

I constantly sought ways to reconcile the teachings of Christ with the ‘saved by grace alone through faith alone’ translations of the books written by Paul. I felt something was wrong but it wasn’t until God removed me from my church by 1200 miles and kept me from finding a substitute that I began to see the light through prayer and Bible reading on my own. I pleaded with God to show me what was the truth and to cast down all doctrines that were only the vain imaginations of man. I became aware that the sacrifice of Christ was the entire payment for sin but not the entire gospel. The gospel of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are more than just the crucifixion story and that what I had been taught was more the cruci-fiction than the truth.

When I understood that Jesus’ words were the way, the truth and the life and following Him was the way to be saved, it was as if the last part of the Bible truly became a New Testament that suddenly made perfect sense. The mystery was unlocked and I could finally understand that the parables and Paul’s writings and the disciple’s record of the Lord’s teachings and their letters were in complete harmony. I no longer had to retranslate everything to fit man’s error.

The biggest trouble I have now is letting scripture say what it says without having previous views cloud my understanding or making an over correction in the opposite direction. I fear listening to sermons on radio and in church since I’m not sure what I eventually will end up with for doctrinal beliefs or how important some are or aren‘t. I don‘t want to be in opposition to a pastor or undermine the Lord‘s work for minor issues. I really feel like I had been brainwashed and now I guess I’m a little phobic. I would like to find my place in a church and settle down but even the thought of it gives me a sickening feeling...

http://www.lforums.org/ubb/ultimatebb.p ... tml#000003

 

[JM]

Recovering, still phobic, Fundamentalist

I should add that my former church was not the abusive, controlling, rabidly fundamental type but the core doctrines render it practically useless to real change and growth in the 'new creation' in Christ. I guess I would describe it as warm and friendly on the surface and 'lukewarm' inside.

I think this statement from the forum allows us to see deeper inside the mind and heart of unred. It seems he has been hurt or abused by some who believe similar things and has associated these abuses, because we believe in the fundamentals, with us. It's sad, not unred, but that he was treated in such a manner.

~JM~

 

[unred typo]

Well, JM, I don’t know what you expect me to do with this monster list. I apologize in advance for the length of my reply. I don’t mind answering your post but I doubt you will bother to read all of mine because it is composed of things I have answered before. As Oscar said, “nothing new here.†So, read it again for the first time:

(I’m just going to plow through your list here, and add my comments after yours )
Quote: This doctrine is clearly taught in these passages, John 10:28,29... Sure. No one can snatch them but they can leave of their own free will.
Romans 11:29; For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance….IOW, God won’t change his mind about giving those who persevere eternal life/ and his blood is always available and he will not repent and take back his gift, nor limit his call but will extend it to whosoever will come.
Phil 1:6; being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus…. Yup. Jesus will continue to forgive and erase your sins as you repent of them
1 Peter 1:5.Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time… IOW, we are kept by believing what Jesus tells us to do in repenting and trusting the power of his blood to remove sin as we confess them

It, moreover, follows from a consideration of (1) the immutability of the divine decrees (Jeremiah 31:3; Hmmmn…This are regarding Israel, not Christians, and is not about salvation. Individuals who sinned were punished and some died in slavery. Their return to their land was conditional on their repentance as verse 19 says: “The LORD appeared to us in the past, saying: "I have loved you with an everlasting love; I have drawn you with loving-kindness>>> 19 After I strayed, I repented; after I came to understand, I beat my breast. I was ashamed and humiliated because I bore the disgrace of my youth.â€Â

Matthew 24:22-24;24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the electâ€â€if that were possible…. No problem, JM. God is not going to allow those who faithfully obey him to be deceived, nor allow them to be tempted above they are able to withstand. The only way this can occur is if they themselves give up their faith in Christ because they grow weary of fighting against the world, the flesh and the devil. So…Don’t give up. As Hebrews 12:3-4 says; “For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. You have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.â€Â

Acts 13:48;When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed….meaning those who had heard the word spoken before when Jesus preached and were sealed until the day of redemption came after his resurrection.

Romans 8:30); Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified….speaking of them which are in Christ Jesus, (see verse 1) who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. It is their walk that determines who these are, not that God picked certain individuals out before they were even born.

(2) the provisions of the covenant of grace (Jeremiah 32:40; …Nope, that’s wrong. Read all of the chapter: Verse 20.“You brought your people Israel out of Egypt with signs and wonders, by a mighty hand and an outstretched arm and with great terror. 22 You gave them this land you had sworn to give their forefathers, a land flowing with milk and honey. 23 They came in and took possession of it, but they did not obey you or follow your law; they did not do what you commanded them to do. So you brought all this disaster upon them.â€Â

John 10:29; 17:2-6);29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand…. Repeat, see same verse above.
(3) the atonement and intercession of Christ (Isaiah 53:6,11;We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all….. That’s all, not chosen ones
Matthew 20:28; just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."….agreed. And your point is?
1 Peter 2:24;He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed…. Good one.
John 11:42;42I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me."…agreed, and???
17:11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your nameâ€â€the name you gave meâ€â€so that they may be one as we are one…. Nothing I don’t agree to, nor anything that proves your point.
15,20; again, your point?
Romans 8:34);Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who diedâ€â€more than that, who was raised to lifeâ€â€is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us…. Proves that it is an ongoing process, not a done deal.

and (4) the indwelling of the Holy Ghost (John 14:16; ….Don’t stop there!… read on to verse20: On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him." …I think this is what I have been trying to tell you all along.

I could go on, since this is pretty fun but no one is going to keep reading and by now, you must see your list is rather lame, whether you will admit it or not. I don’t have any problem with the fact that we are indwelt with the Holy Spirit anyways. As I explained before, being indwelt does not guarantee that a person is saved forever. If you have a verse you want to show me that says that, please find it in your list and I’ll look at it.

If what you say is true concerning salvation and a believer can lose it and then find, etc. then how was God able to supersede your will and pride so you could see it was a “damnable lie?†This is where you’re not making sense. One instance your telling us we can choose God from our own fallen sinful will and be saved [temporally] and how God wouldn’t force us to remained saved, we could walk away from the whole deal…yet, you claim God wasn’t willing you believe a “damnable lie†and thee against your will and pride, opened you eyes? God forced you to do something? Do you honestly believe those who profess preservation by the will and power of God are damned? You did write that it was a “damnable lie.â€Â

I didn’t say I was saved by believing a false gospel. I did repent of my sin, years ago, believing it was a once for all time confession. Had I died at that moment of time, I believe I would have been saved by the blood of Christ because I was sincere and was like the one who received the seed/word with joy, but I only had a part of the gospel. When I began to accumulate sins like anger, resentment, and pride again, I wasn’t diligent to repent since I was taught that even those future things had been paid for and to confess them again was a lack of faith and I think for the most part, I had a careless attitude. I didn’t consider the plight of the poor, or suffering people of the world and thought the important thing was getting the work-less “gospel†to every creature, instead of food or clothing. I thought it was pleasing to God to put a tract in the hand of a starving child. I can’t judge my salvation at that point, because that would be a very biased judgment. My memory of those days is a little foggy but I believe now that my works were certainly not very pleasing to God, though I was very active in my church. We’re talking a period of over twenty years and I have hardly kept records.

You sound like God has to use some kind of super mind melding powers on our brains to ‘open our eyes’ or ‘change our wills.’ It’s not that at all. It’s more like when you were little and you wanted to believe in Santie Claus but you kept hearing these little hints that something wasn’t quite right about the whole deal. Then, even though you didn’t really want to find out what you had suspected all along, that mean kid in your class opened your eyes and suddenly, it was over. Your will to resist was overcome by your embarrassment of being made a fool of, by of all people, your parents, who taught you not to lie! When you’re searching for truth or even when you‘re not, God will open your eyes in the most normal of ways. If little Jimmy Bratwerst can do it, why don’t you know God can? Now you can pretend that a lie isn’t a lie and build up your Santa myth if you want, but that isn’t very smart, is it?

If we are not saved by works and our works do nothing toward our justification, if we are saved by faith, then works must be the fruit of salvation. This has already been posted in other threads, this is just another anecdotal story in place of scripture or is this an admission that God wasn’t willing to let you perish and gently guided you or rather preserved you in salvation? Suppose what you say is true, if I follow the Law perfectly and did everything the Law demands, would God then owe me salvation? When it’s all said and done, when I reach the judgement seat, could I then say, “Lord I did all you asked of me and then some, you owe me!â€Â

Listen: Did you have to force Christ to die for you? Did you do something to make him go to the cross? Did you pay him to take your punishment for your sin? Did you even beg him to do it? No, he was under no obligation to do anything for you, no matter how many works you did or how many times you circled the world crawling on your knees, or how much tinfoil you collected in a ball the size of Mt. Everest. Nothing could obligate him to do anything for you.

Now, what he did, he did out of mercy and grace and not because of your works or anyone else’s works, got it? He owns us and not we ourselves. Whatever he tells us to do, we are obligated to do for him, because he is God and we are his creatures. Period, end of discussion. There will be no bragging, no demanding and no pride. We are worthless servants doing what is our duty to do when we do everything he has asked to the very best of our puny ability. We obey because he is our Lord and master. If we don’t obey, we die, possibly for eternity in hell. That’s the way I read it. Simple, isn’t it?

Glad you brought it up. What is it that God deems necessary for our salvation beyond the Blood of Christ? Our works? Christ PLUS our works equals salvation? That would mean Christ’s death was only a “way†to salvation, the works actually sealed the deal.

No, no, glad YOU brought it up. Remember the covenant? I hadn’t given that enough thought while John the Baptist was mentioning it about every time he wrote a post. A covenant is between two parties and each side has to live up to their side of the deal. The deal is, we obey him as our Lord, and he becomes our Savior. Like a marriage contract, the husband, being the Lord, and the bride being the members of the spiritual church. He is the head of the household, we are the obedient and faithful spouse. The wedding seals the deal, right? It can never end, right? Or not? When is a marriage contract broken? When one of the marriage partners is unfaithful to their vows. It isn’t going to be Christ.

I have trouble believing you talked with God, the things you report being said are contrary to what we find in scripture. For instance, when you “tried to tell†God “that he had promised never to let go†you, maybe without you knowing, you quoted John 10:28, 29.
Look it up.
You quoted to whomever you were talking to scripture and they contradicted scripture. Angel of light?

Of course I knew I was quoting John 10:28-29. I was using scripture just as I was taught, in it’s total fractured and reconstructed misuse. When I say, I talked with God, I do not mean in the way Scorpia has explained her encounters with God. It was when I read scripture and tried to make it say what I was told it meant and what you profess, and opening up my Bible to verses that contradicted it. It was that still small voice that speaks to your heart. It was that uneasy feeling that you don’t have the true story. It was a question from out of the blue that comes to your mind that you can’t answer with your list of memorized ‘feel-good’ verses.

I suggest that unred has been bewitched by this being he has been talking to.
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
That is what unred the whole point of unred’s post.
Here’s a word for you, “propitiation.â€Â
There are four important fundamentals in understanding this term [as listed by John Owen]:
1. An offence to be taken away.
2. A person offended who needs to be pacified.
3. An offending person; one guilty of the offence.
4. A sacrifice or some other means of making atonement for the offence.
Propitiated sins cannot be atoned for. Once the offer for our sins has been made, there “REMAINETH NO FURTHER SACRIFICE FOR SIN!†Hebrews 10:26

1.= my sin, 2.= God, 3. = me, 4. The blood of Christ. That’s the way I see it as well. There is nothing that I do that adds to cleansing of the blood of Christ. It works without my help. Does that mean that I don’t have to repent, JM? Does that mean that I don’t have to obey God?

What are you trying to say here? You seem confussed.
We are justified by FAITH, but you’re saying we are justified by faith and works.

No, I’m saying that we are justified by the blood, and we live by works of faith, faith in what he told us to do in order to inherit eternal life. You can’t separate the word, “faith†from it’s meaning. It turns it into nonsense, like saying that you ‘believe God’ but you just don’t believe what he says.

Yes, and who is the one who performs this act (washing each sin away in his blood, making us perfect in righteousness) ? You?

I repent and confess, and I have faith that the Lord does this for me in his own blood.

(Uread: “even if I died for the cause of Christ, my blood would not have been required to pay for my sin, and that dying for Christ was a special honor that not all would be chosen for.â€Â)
Wait. Did you have a choice in the matter? How dare God transgress the sacred boundary of your will and force you to do anything for Him, let alone die for Him. You theology is inconsistent.

He chooses all our deaths; how, where, when, why. The only thing we get to choose is whether we want to submit to his will or Satan’s. We have no choice in our death or none of us would die, would we?

"But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" 2 Thessalonians 2:13
To quote A.W. Pink, “Language could not be more explicit.â€Â
(Rom 8:30) Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Let me break in down for you: 1. God predestined 2. God called 3. God justified 4. God glorify Seems simple and contrary to what you’re saying.

Not really. It’s about first century believers though, more than for us. God predetermined that those who heard Christ preach and accepted him as the Messiah, would be called to repentance and justified by his blood, and glorified as sons of God:
Ephesians 1:13
12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. (we are not those who first trusted in Christ!)
13In whom ye also trusted, after that you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that you believed, you were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

As an engagement ring seals a commitment to marriage.

Ephesians 4:30
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Don’t be unfaithful to your vows.

Christ, the real Christ, said, “that which is born of flesh is flesh†and adding latter in John 8 that we are “servants of sin†until set free from this bondage until by Christ. The sin that tempts believers can be resisted, but there is nothing in the flesh of the unbeliever that allows for them to break the chains of sin that enslave them.

Right/wrong. John 8:34 Jesus answered them, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever commits sin is the servant of sin. 35And the servant abides not in the house for ever: but the Son abides ever. 36If the Son therefore shall make you free, you shall be free indeed.†When did Jesus set us free from sin, JM? It’s been a couple thousand years now. You’ll catch on. I have faith in you. :wink:

The reluctance to repent means you are still in rebellion against God, if you are saved you’ll be chastised and brought to repentance, if not…you’re not saved. This doesn’t mean the believer never falls into sin, it means the believer never falls into sin without being restored to repentance.

You mean, “thou shalt surely not dieâ€Â, don’t you? That didn’t work out too good for Adam…

And these works are performed only by those who are faithful, there faith produces this fruit because they are justified by the Blood of Christ already. What’s nauseating is your ability to ignore this point which has been made repeatedly.

What fruit are you talking about? We are only justified by the blood when we repent of not obeying God. Are you talking about repentance being fruit?
Works of faith are obedience to what he said to do, like loving one another, giving to those less fortunate, forgiving as you have been forgiven, turning the other cheek, etc. Is that the fruit you mean? because that is the works of faith that a person does in obedience to God. How can you be faithful in obedience to Christ without obeying Christ?

More context from the whole scripture is important. I know unred doesn’t like these lists, but God chooses to justify only those He chooses to justify based on nothing we do.

I don’t like your lists because they are padded with irrelevant verses for the sole purpose of making a post to be too tedious to reply to. If your doctrine was not just a compost pile of unrelated “proofs†mashed together to say what you want to hear, you could open to one book, read it from greeting to farewell and not have to rework every paragraph.

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

The false Gospel you bought into is based on the works of flesh to maintain salvation.

There’s a falsehood right there. You don’t even have a clue about what the ‘works of the flesh’ are. Here ya go: “Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.†Bet your ears are twitching now.

You keep writing this but fail to provide anything worthy of intellectual consideration for believers. You fail to provide scriptural proof for these fanciful conversations. So, instead of trusting Christ to perform the good work in and thru you, being the author and finisher of our faith, you cancelled that “insurance†for something you hope to maintain yourself by your own hands. Good luck with that.

You don’t seem to have any problem recognizing your doctrines when I quote them. “You must work out your own salvation in the fear of God†is Philippians 2:12
Wherefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Do you have any other quotes of mine you don’t know exactly where it came from in scripture?

Wow, you wrote, “when Jesus preached the true gospel, the common people received it gladly…†But you admit you didn’t receive it gladly and “fear had gripped my soul…†You must be above the common people or haven’t received the Gospel, which is it? To introduce the Pharisees is to show how little you understand what the Pharisees believed, they insisted you could hold earn salvation by works of the Law…sounds a lot like what you’ve been posting about.

Wow, indeed. If you’ll look at what I wrote, you’ll see why. I said “By the time God had trumped out all the rest of my arguments, that fear had gripped my soul and I knew I had not heard the true gospel. When Jesus preached the true gospel, the common people received it gladly but they were finding that eternal life was still available to them after the unmerciful condemnation of self-righteous Pharisees but I was finding my ‘utopian dream world’ crumbling away. Now it was evident that my eternal fate was truly in my hands and I had not taken my covenant with God seriously at all.

Now I can explain what the ‘works of the law’ are for you again. ‘Works of the law’ are rites and rituals such as hand washing, circumcision, holy fasts/festivals observance, not mixing woolen and linen fabric, not plowing with an ox and a mule together, not eating shellfish, and a hundred or so other ordinances that had nothing to do with love, mercy, faith or humility. Are you nauseous yet?

Galatians 4:9 But now, after that you have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn you again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto you desire again to be in bondage?
10You observe days, and months, and times, and years.
5:1Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if you be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Again, you didn’t understand the idea of Covenant or you weren’t saved. It also seems that you’re so angry at the Gospel you can’t see the forest for the trees anymore. You are so obsessed, like the Pharisee, with proving your own righteousness you fail to acknowledge God’s will in your life.

I loved your little fairy tale but it’s a lie. Get over it.

What unred has done is common. He has confused once saved always saved with the historic Calvinistic and Reformed doctrine of perseverance of the saints…they are different. It’s also common to find thru out unred’s posts evidence that he lives up to his name, he is truly “unread†when it comes to offering a critic of Reformed thought and theology, providing classic straw men from the anticalvinist mob. What is the real issue we are dealing with? Does God have the power to save His people to the uttermost? Why won’t unred debate me in a formal debate setting?

You’re correct that I don’t know every aspect of the historic Calvinistic and Reformed doctrine of perseverance of the saints. I don’t need to know them. I know the truth and the truth has set me free. I don’t care to debate the entire collective mind of every Calformed site you can dredge up. I would just become so frustrated that I would say something that would hurt your feelings, cause me to have to repent and tempt you lock the topic or send it to dead thread-ville.

God saves to the uttermost those who by patient continuance in well doing, Romans 2, inherit eternal life. It’s a daily process: Hebrews 7:24-25 “But this man, because he continues ever, has an unchangeable priesthood.
25Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever lives to make intercession for them.†If it is “finished,†why does he and his father still work at this?

No apology is needed; just don’t accuse me or anyone else of trying to drown the facts with lengthy posts, as you did to me in the past. When it comes to what we believe is the truth details are required to express what we believe.

Too late. I don’t complain about your posts when you use a couple verses in context and a lengthy explanation. What I hate is a trumped up list of verses a mile long that have almost no logical substantiation to what you’re attempting to prove.

In the last few lines it seems like you’re boasting, you seem to be saying you don’t suffer from spiritual pride like the rest of us who are unable to repent and allowed God to win. You are showing immense pride in yourself by declaring yourself better then those you disagree with.

That was my opinion when I thought I was one of the chosen few. Oh yeah. I’m real proud it took over twenty years to come to the conclusion that a four year old has no problem understanding.

The supposed conversation you had with what you believe is God is troubling. I’ve shown in a few places, the being you spoke with contradicted a plain reading of scripture and often asked you to re-read scripture according to it’s instructions…providing an isolated context of each passage outside of the total value of scripture. I have no advice for you

That’s far enough. I didn’t mean to scare you but I’m fairly sure when God is speaking and when it’s my own musings and I can see how he has lead me here to this place in my spiritual awareness, not that I have arrived or that I am even close to where I should be after these many years. I’m not sure where I could go to fit into a local assembly, but I’m all done with playing church.

.

 

[unred typo]

I stumbled onto this while checking out other forums. It seems like he was on the right track and the devil plucked him out. He was seed that fell on rocky ground

Funny you should stumble onto this site. I had lost the link and just this week wondered if it was still online. I liked the people there and was sad to lose the link when my computer crashed. I haven’t really changed much of my theology since then but I won’t guarantee anything you might find in my distant past. :wink: Nothing new there, huh, Oscar?

I think this statement from the forum allows us to see deeper inside the mind and heart of unred. It seems he has been hurt or abused by some who believe similar things and has associated these abuses, because we believe in the fundamentals, with us. It's sad, not unred, but that he was treated in such a manner.

Actually, it’s not all that dramatic; the people were average, they were busy with their own lives, and caught up repeating the same religious jargon like a flock of parrots all chattering the same phrases and no one really cognizant of the actual meaning of the words, let alone realizing it was necessary for salvation to follow Christ and not just talk about following him. That’s not to say, I was any better. I had learned to speak fluent ‘refrigerator magnet’ myself.

I’m not even saying that I’ve gotten out of the basement. And it's not like I was traumatized for life either but I'm not going back to my old church. Water under the bridge. I haven’t really given it much thought except remorse that I spent so long trying to figure it out, when it was really so simple.

:


But thanks for the concern.



Cybershark, I’m still mulling over your post. I did JM’s on ‘auto pilot.’ Yours will require some prayerful thought.
:fadein:

 

[cyberjosh]

JM, you stole my thunder! :wink:

Unread, would you mind going back and considering my points also? I never finished talking to you about all that.

Edit: Never mind I just saw your Post Script. I'll wait. If you have any questions you can also ask me in my PM unread.