Giving up

[unred typo]

Unfortunately, the word "salvation" has multiple meanings and is the cause of much confusion, as you have properly pointed out. "being saved" means being healed - of sin. But our human experience finds that even after this event, we continue to sin - and often require being "saved" or "healed" again by turning to the Lord and asking pardon. "Being saved" can also refer to our current walk - AND can also refer to what will become of us, as Tan points out. Thus, the term "salvation" and its derivatives can be confusing. Thus, we should be careful of our definitions, reminding ourselves that "being saved" in the Scriptures doesn't always mean the same thing everywhere. That is why context is so important.

Exactly so. Thank you, Joe. Write that one down, too. Oh wait, you just did. Let’s make it into a wall plaque! CONTEXT! It’s so true but then again, I guess we don’t need to train any more parrots. There’s a popular misconception that when the term, ’works’, for instance, is used, it always refers to something pridefully wrong to do and it often is used as a catch word opposing ‘grace.’ Not so. I can’t get over how gracious it is of God to accept our meager works and how much such a thought really humbles me to think that the God who can speak anything into existence would allow me to a chance to earn his favor by simple acts of love and kindness and by doing such, be called his child. And the rewards of doing kindnesses for others usually bring immediate rewards anyways since it is more blessed to give than receive. (Just thought I’d put in a plug for Santa. I have been a little rough on him, saying he didn't exist and all. Tis the season…:wink: )

:smt111

 

[cyberjosh]

This isn’t really dealing with the verses that plainly say that those who sin willfully after having received the Spirit and begun the whole rebirth process, are lost.

Ok, and I'm going along with you here, but could you show me clear verses that say that. I am aware of the most controversial one of all, Hebrews 6:4-6, but if it is a coherent doctrine, please show me additional verses that show people departing who for sure had the Spirit. As I have said many times I am not 100% certain that you can't loose your salvation. I'm open to both possiblities. I'm just playing devils advocate to draw out more pointed and specific doctrinal statements.

I would be pleased if someone would take into account and respond to what I said about the pitiful view that God can't keep us at all though, which is false. That is how I am playing both sides for now, but there has to be a comprehensive middle ground.

The OSAS SOS, Josh; “Those who are truly saved will be saved, or they truly weren’t saved at all.â€Â

Actually I said that they would be changed, they would show evidence of the Spirit's presense, but since then I have talked to JM about our terminology and we pretty much agreed that I was using OSAS differently than other people. My idea of it, as JM and I determined, was effectively Perseverance of the Saints but with a constantly faithful aspect towards God. JM called this OSAF (Once Saved Always Faithul) , I kinda like it, but like I said I'm not dead set on this "always faithful" aspect, though I see evidence that the majority of Christians will persevere and sanctify themselves because of their changed nature. It's possible that some could fall away, we'll discuss that, but I just wanted you to know that at the heart of it all I believe in Perseverance of the Saints.

Where are the churches who teach us that we can be overcomers? Where are the preachers who yell the consequences of sin and put the fear of God in our hearts to help us stay on the straight and narrow?

I did that twice last month actually. I preached on not using grace in vain, and emphasiszed sanctification since we have so freely been given grace, to press towards the mark in obediance to God. And I also preached on the law of Christ to which we are bound since we cannot use our liberty for an opportunity for the flesh. I preach in support of the active, fruitful Christian life and sanctification, and not recieving the grace of God in vain, and instead using grace for its intended purpose: to unleash power in our life through liberty to trample sin under our feet and sanctify ourselves. "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness."

There’s a popular misconception that when the term, ’works’, for instance, is used, it always refers to something pridefully wrong to do and it often is used as a catch word opposing ‘grace.’ Not so. I can’t get over how gracious it is of God to accept our meager works and how much such a thought really humbles me to think that the God who can speak anything into existence would allow me to a chance to earn his favor by simple acts of love and kindness and by doing such, be called his child.

Yes and it is infact God's grace that enables to do righteous works in the first place. Without God's grace we could not accomplish it.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[TanNinety]

Salvation is a Past Event:
"for in hope we were saved" (Rom 8:24)
"by grace you have been saved through faith" (Eph 2:5,8)
"he saved us, called us, according to his grace" (2 Tim 1:9)

Thank you for pointing me to the above scripture cyber.

Rom 8:23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, [then] do we with patience wait for [it].

Verse 24 is sandwiched between “waiting for†and “wait forâ€Â.

Let me see if I can work an analogy:
1. We are waiting on winning the race.
2. We are made perfect by practice.
3. Our hope is on victory and we are waiting to grab the medal.

Now even though in isolation, statement (2) suggests a “already made perfect†view the context of 1 and 3 dictate that this “practice†is yet to be tested on the field for perfection. IMO, statement 2 is an assertion based on experience rather than an actual statement of completion.

However, this pitiful view of ChristianS having no security or rod of protection (even through discipline) from God to keep them on the path is incorrect because to an extent (and I would argue a great extent - though not limitless) God will keep you on the path when you struggle (Hebrews 12:4-11). And God is able to keep you, and though possibly not true for every one people such as Paul were assured of their salvation, as I am confident that I have salvation and that it will be realized in full once I die.

I understand your sentiments regarding this. Though I assume that neither unred nor Joe and definitely myself adhere to the above view of there is no security or rod of protection. God does discipline, He does put us on the narrow path when we go astray. Don’t think any of us trust God any less in that aspect. What we cannot guarantee is that a person will always listen to God’s prompting.

Many say, “Jesus take the wheelâ€Â, this is misleading at best. He has already taken the wheel and drove it to the cross. What we need to do is follow His tyre tracks and drive carefully towards that narrow gate. Even if we lose our path, no worries, we have God’s OnStar on board to guide us. He will correct us back on to the right path. But what if we are too stubborn to listen, drive our own way? Even though we started out on the path of Salvation will we end up at the right destination without following His commandments and directions? No.

The foot prints of our walk with the Lord on the narrow path is not the final result of us already getting in the narrow gate. Getting through the narrow gate is the final result of walking in the foot prints of Yeshua on the narrow path. I think this is where we differ even though we seem to agree on a lot of levels.

I will ease up on my posts just a little to give you enough time to concentrate on unred and Joe's.

 

[francisdesales]

:smt111

"where does he get all of those cool emoticons?!"

...said in my best Jack Nicholson's "Joker" voice...

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

P.S. But now I'm on the defensive of this aspect of it. You will have to read previously about how I believe that those truely saved will bear fruit and sanctify themselves, thus no such thing as a fruitless Christian life (no free ride and relaxation), thus I emphasise demonstrating fruits by our faith, because faith without fruits is not real faith.

Brother,

And now you have touched on the fatal error of "OSAS"... How do you KNOW you have true saving faith? You NEVER will know, until you die.

Why???

Because whenever someone of the OSAS type falls away, the rest claim "Well, he never had 'true' faith to begin with"... And thus, OSAS and eternal security comes to a crashing halt. How can you say you are OSAS, but then must admit that you MIGHT falter, making null and void everything you have done up until that day of destruction??? How are you going to secure your salvation - by trying to believe more? And yet, what does believing more today have anything to do with what happens 10 years from now? Faith is a walk, a journey.

Remember my quote from Ez 18???

Even the righteous can fall away, says Scriptures. The whole point of Paul's "security" is not on our end, but on God's end. HE will not abandon us and HE will provide the graces necessary, even providing a way out of temptations. However, we have free will and certainly DO have the ability to allow God's grace to fall upon us in vain.

Regards

 

[cyberjosh]

Thanks Tan, points well taken. That was the affirmation I was looking for that you do at least believe in God's protection. I understand your other points as well. I would only ask you, because of my own lack of understanding of what you are trying to say, to elaborate a little on this:

Let me see if I can work an analogy:
1. We are waiting on winning the race.
2. We are made perfect by practice.
3. Our hope is on victory and we are waiting to grab the medal.

Now even though in isolation, statement (2) suggests a “already made perfect†view the context of 1 and 3 dictate that this “practice†is yet to be tested on the field for perfection. IMO, statement 2 is an assertion based on experience rather than an actual statement of completion.

Perhaps more words will clear up your analogy of how the past, present, and future aspects fit together. I just couldn't quite catch what you were trying to say here. Especially how practice comes in, when would it count?

 

[francisdesales]

Thanks Tan, points well taken. That was the affirmation I was looking for that you do at least believe in God's protection. I understand your other points as well. I would only ask you, because of my own lack of understanding of what you are trying to say, to elaborate a little on this...

Perhaps more words will clear up your analogy of how the past, present, and future aspects fit together. I just couldn't quite catch what you were trying to say here. Especially how practice comes in, when would it count?

cybershark,

If I may add my own two cents on Tan's analogy and regarding "practice".

Love is not something that is magically placed within us without us. It is a learned trait, done by practice. Those who will be saved in the end will have become like the Lord, a person who loves His neighbors. It is unthinkable that God "saves" someone and they continue in hatred towards others. If God is Love, and one does not possess Love within them, they are fooling themselves to think they abide in God and He in them. Thus, the "practice" idea. We must BECOME like Christ - it is not just some legal declaration.

Regards

 

[cyberjosh]

And now you have touched on the fatal error of "OSAS"... How do you KNOW you have true saving faith? You NEVER will know, until you die.

Two things. First, I just tried to clarify about two posts back that I believed in Perseverance of the Saints first and foremost (I tried to tell unread how I had used "OSAS" differently than its normal orthodox use), though since I am just debating this security issue I have not made a final analysis of whether I believe that you can fall away or not. I'm reasoning on both sides right now, or more so on the OSAS side to see where any weak spots are.

Second, oh no my friend! You CAN know that you are saved, and what lack of joy you must have if you never know! If you answer yes to any of the questions that I asked Tan: "Do you believe that when John talks about being in the light and having fellowship with God that it refers to being saved (1 John 1:7), and that knowing him (which is eternal life), loving him, and being "in Him" are equivalent to salvation, or atleast the effects/evidences of being saved (1 John 2:4-6)?" and if you can have confidence of your future completion and fulfillment of your salvation like Paul certainly was then you can know that you have eternal life and are walking with God in the light, being saved. Just look at those verses I quoted on the "past" aspect of salvation. John also says, "By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments." We use John 3:16 as the basis for our call of people to salvation, but what is actually promised? Eternal life. What is eternal life? To know God (John 17:3). And we can know God right now, and we all (who are regenerated) do to some extent. Look at all the things John said that we can know for sure in our life (1 John 2:5; 3:24; 4:13; 5:2 ). Think over this.

Because whenever someone of the OSAS type falls away, the rest claim "Well, he never had 'true' faith to begin with"... And thus, OSAS and eternal security comes to a crashing halt. How can you say you are OSAS, but then must admit that you MIGHT falter, making null and void everything you have done up until that day of destruction??? How are you going to secure your salvation - by trying to believe more? And yet, what does believing more today have anything to do with what happens 10 years from now? Faith is a walk, a journey.

I have already tried to tell you that I beleive in Perseverance of the Saints. I know it is a walk of life and not a one time event. And I also know personally that I will not apostacise, because I like Paul am sure in my calling and I am predestined in Christ Jesus for good works. I will fulfill that calling because I actively pursue God on my part.

Even the righteous can fall away, says Scriptures. The whole point of Paul's "security" is not on our end, but on God's end. HE will not abandon us and HE will provide the graces necessary, even providing a way out of temptations. However, we have free will and certainly DO have the ability to allow God's grace to fall upon us in vain.

I have had that scripture in Ezekiel marked in my Bible for a long time. I know what it says. What I want to know is how that fits in under the new covenant. Didn't God also say in Ezekiel (or was it Jeremiah?) that he would write his law upon their hearts and cause them to walk in his statutes?

As for the grace being recieved in vain: I know it can be recieved in vain. Paul constantly warns against that. But in every instance I have seen him warn about it it seems to be aimed at people who are wanting to be saved and follow Christ. The shallow, false belief that doesn't produce change or works is false belief (like James says), so in that case I would say that person recieved the grace of God in vain. Can you prove this to be also true for those already saved and walking in the Spirit? I honestly want to know.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

It is unthinkable that God "saves" someone and they continue in hatred towards others. If God is Love, and one does not possess Love within them, they are fooling themselves to think they abide in God and He in them. Thus, the "practice" idea. We must BECOME like Christ - it is not just some legal declaration.

Well see that's another evidence that John gives us that we are saved. John says that if a man says he loves God yet hates his brother he is a liar. And John also says that we know we are God's children if we love our brothers. Those are more fruits of salvation and redemption in our lives. You cannot deny all the past tense usages of "bought" and "redeemed" and "justified" and "sanctified" and "baptised" and "saved" and so on an so forth. There is a definate and assured element that we can stand firm on that we are walking with God and are saved.

 

[Oscar3]

Wow
This is amazing to me.
Unread Typo and Tan Ninety.
It is amazing to me how you guys can roam around all these websites and learn about God and still your not saved. I am convinced that both of you are not part of the elect. I pray I am wrong about this.

 

[cyberjosh]

Wow
This is amazing to me.
Unread Typo and Tan Ninety.
It is amazing to me how you guys can roam around all these websites and learn about God and still your not saved. I am convinced that both of you are not part of the elect. I pray I am wrong about this.

Oscar, I say this as kindly as possible but that is not your place to say or judge, but God's. I am actually enjoying the reasoning process with them. They use Scripture and I'm walking through it with them. We all have our valid points, hopefully this will just come to a middle ground.

And for the record I can't see anything in their doctrines thus far that would give me the idea that they are not saved. Only if I openly heard them reject Jesus Christ as God and Savior could I tell you that they are not saved.

P.S. Completely off topic but I was wondering if I could recruit you to take up the Challenge in this thread I just made. I'm looking for people not afraid to challenge their beliefs.

 

[Oscar3]

Cyber
OK, Rebuke recieved and accepted.
Can I ask you a question?
Is it necessary for one to believe that Jesus is God to be saved?

 

[cyberjosh]

Is it necessary for one to believe that Jesus is God to be saved?

That's a hard question to answer because I have tried so hard before to show people in the Bible where is shows that Jesus is God, but they just like to argue the point. I say it is crucial to believing in Him. I would ask this: "What kind of Jesus would you believe in if you didn't believe he was God?"

P.S. If you want to continue this conversation in any depth I suggest we do it by PM, so we don't side track the thread.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[AVBunyan]

Cyber Can I ask you a question?
Is it necessary for one to believe that Jesus is God to be saved?

I do not find where sinner has to believe or understand the deity of Christ in order to be saved....but...Once a sinner has been truly regenerated and has been shown the truth concerning Christ's deity he will believe it.

For those who question the deity of Christ I question their salvation.

God bless

 

[cyberjosh]

Where did francisdesales, Tan Ninty, and unread typo go? Hmmm, perhaps they are off for the holidays....

On that that note Merry Christmas everyone! We celebrate our Savior's birth!

 

[francisdesales]

First, I just tried to clarify about two posts back that I believed in Perseverance of the Saints first and foremost (I tried to tell unread how I had used "OSAS" differently than its normal orthodox use), though since I am just debating this security issue I have not made a final analysis of whether I believe that you can fall away or not. I'm reasoning on both sides right now, or more so on the OSAS side to see where any weak spots are.

Brother,

First, here I am! I haven't been gone that long, only 6 hours!

Now. On Perseverance of the Saints. This is a slick way of saying OSAS, in my opinion. The problem is that the "saint" declares that he is of the elect and is eternally saved. This is a problem because we don't have access to the Book of Life. Note, Scriptures tell us that some have been ERASED from this book! Perseverance of the Saints, in my opinion, is God's knowledge alone. We don't have that knowledge. I am aware of Calvinists who have fallen away - yet, earlier in life, had claimed to be one of the elect saints...

And we are then back to the OSAS problem. It is merely a self-proclamation.

I have had that scripture in Ezekiel marked in my Bible for a long time. I know what it says. What I want to know is how that fits in under the new covenant. Didn't God also say in Ezekiel (or was it Jeremiah?) that he would write his law upon their hearts and cause them to walk in his statutes?

God has ALWAYS written His Law on the hearts on men. Read Romans 2. Now, Jeremiah DOES say that God will enable man to walk in His statutes. Well, that would have to be the Holy Spirit becoming manifest in the believer, enabling us of the New Covenant to love our enemies and so forth. However, men of faith have ALWAYS existed - Abraham certainly was aided by the SAME Spirit. The New Covenant expands the Covenant to the rest of humanity - but the offer is again the SAME Spirit - the One who enables men to obey the commandments (whether the Decalogue, or the Natural Law written in the Gentile's heart).

As for the grace being recieved in vain: I know it can be recieved in vain. Paul constantly warns against that. But in every instance I have seen him warn about it it seems to be aimed at people who are wanting to be saved and follow Christ. The shallow, false belief that doesn't produce change or works is false belief (like James says), so in that case I would say that person recieved the grace of God in vain.

Yes, again, the OSAS idea forces you to judge FOR YOURSELF whether you have achieved a certain level of faith. Naturally, being that human nature is apt in fooling itself, the typical "born-again Christian" will say "Yea, I have saving faith". Who would say "no, I don't have enough yet"! This is the problem with OSAS. MAN makes the judgment, (and always makes the claim that he does) that he has saving faith. However, the Scriptures are very clear that GOD will judge us by our actions that prove our faith. We must assume, in line with Ezekiel 18, that our actions until our death will be judged. Notice the Scripture I quoted. It says that turning to evil will nullify ALL the good you did before. Thus, we must persevere until the end, brother. This is the clear sense of Scripture. Work out your salvation in fear and trembling to the very end. (but let's not forget that God is the one who places within us the will to do good).

Can you prove this to be also true for those already saved and walking in the Spirit? I honestly want to know.

Again, Josh, all we can do is "judge" our walk in light of TODAY. Quite frankly, being a human being and in no way vastly superior to other people, I too realize I can fall in the future. Thus, I should have a child-like faith and trust that God will lead me to salvation in the end, as long as I continue to follow God. HE will NOT turn away from me - DESPITE my sins! As long as I return to Him in repentance, He will again offer to save me from myself.

Now, on salvation. Yes, we have been saved. But let's define that moment in the past. We came to the realization that Christ is our Savior. We understood that our sins were forgiven. We realized that we were no longer slaves to sin. AT THAT MOMENT.

However, as experience tells us, we CAN become slaves to sin again! Paul over and over mentions this. Even HE deals with this possibility - lest he be DISQUALIFIED (1 Cor 9). We are either slaves to sin or slaves to the Lord. Our lifestyle and way of thinking will largely determine if we are slaves to sin. In the future, I could become an alcoholic. Isn't this a slavery? Isn't it sinful? Doesn't this sort of slavery lead me into even worse sin?

Now, the question I ask you is - "Does this mean everything I did before was a sham, that I didn't have 'enough' faith"? That is utterly ridiculous, because if I loved my neighbor today, and subsequently fall, WHO was responsible for that love I showed today? GOD! He was there! So how can we dismiss someone's past because they fall away today???

We cannot know what will happen in the future. We do not know the extent of how we will give in to slavery to sin. We don't know if we will repent again when we falter again. Thus, being saved 10 years ago has NOTHING to do with the decisions I will make during my slow fall into alcoholism. What will prevent me from doing so is my CURRENT walk, not something that happened so long ago. It is worthless if I don't use this moment in my life as the beginning to something new - the realization that I have been given a GREAT GIFT! Freely given! What I do with it is up to me. From above, I hope you see that I have described salvation as a PRESENT occurence. I am being saved by the Lord. Today.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Second, oh no my friend! You CAN know that you are saved, and what lack of joy you must have if you never know! If you answer yes to any of the questions that I asked Tan: "Do you believe that when John talks about being in the light and having fellowship with God that it refers to being saved (1 John 1:7), and that knowing him (which is eternal life), loving him, and being "in Him" are equivalent to salvation, or atleast the effects/evidences of being saved (1 John 2:4-6)?" and if you can have confidence of your future completion and fulfillment of your salvation like Paul certainly was then you can know that you have eternal life and are walking with God in the light, being saved. Just look at those verses I quoted on the "past" aspect of salvation. John also says, "By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments." We use John 3:16 as the basis for our call of people to salvation, but what is actually promised? Eternal life. What is eternal life? To know God (John 17:3). And we can know God right now, and we all (who are regenerated) do to some extent. Look at all the things John said that we can know for sure in our life (1 John 2:5; 3:24; 4:13; 5:2 ). Think over this.

Oops, how did I miss a whole paragraph?

First of all, yes I WAS saved. I never denied that. The Holy Spirit came to me and has healed me from sin, made me into a new creation, marked me with His seal, the first installment which I have inherited while doing nothing to earn it. AGAIN, though, I tell you that "saved" has different meanings in Scriptures. Thus, yes I WAS saved. Yes, I am being saved - I know this because I am obeying the Commandments. I cannot do this unless the Spirit of God abides in me. However, WILL I be saved in the end? That, my friend, is something Paul calls HOPE. We HOPE we will be saved in the end. I have inherited something, but I can throw it away, since our free will has not been destroyed upon God's entry into my soul.

Yes, abiding in Christ is being saved. But again, we can't predict our future. And it is really nonsense to say "I won't do that in the future". I do not think for a minute that a person receiving the Spirit today can make such a prediction in the future. Paul tells BELIEVERS over and over that they can lose their inheritance of the Kingdom for becoming slaves to sin again. God does not abide in the one who willfully sins.

Eternal life is Jesus Christ HIMSELF! It is not a status. HE is eternal life. Abiding in Him secures eternal life - HIM! Thus, when the Scriptures say we must attain eternal life, it means we are to attain Jesus Christ within us. And this eternal life can leave us when we willfully sin and deny our Lord. This is why the knowledge of the Trinity is so important. It is not just some esoteric theology. God is drawing us into the life of the Trinity. A pouring of self into the other. And if we are to be drawn into this life, WE TOO must BECOME love. We TOO must give of ourselves. That is how we abide in Christ. By giving of ourselves as He did. That is Love in a nutshell. To die to oneself.

The opposite of love is NOT hate. It is selfishness. Think about that. A selfish person will not see the Kingdom because they do not have Love - God. Being saved at that one moment in the past does not automatically secure Love within our souls. No doubt you have seen a lot of "saved" individuals who have not love... Are they saved? Not right now. We are saved while we Love, because that is the sign that Christ abides within us.

Regards

 

[golfjack]

reply

Where does it say that one has to obey the 10 commandments to be saved? We are saved when we believe and confess Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior ( Romans 10:9-10). Also, when you think water baptism saves you, all you is come up a wet sinner.



May God bless, golfjack

 

[Vic C.]

AV and golfjack; you said SO much in such short posts... I commend you both for speaking the truth in 100 words or less.

This IS NOT a stab at the longer posts in this thread. Those long posts do serve a purpose in a discussion like this. It's just that AV and golfjack's pots reminded me of another member who used to post here... Evanman. He would say a thousand words with just one verse.

 

[francisdesales]

Re: reply

Where does it say that one has to obey the 10 commandments to be saved? We are saved when we believe and confess Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior ( Romans 10:9-10). Also, when you think water baptism saves you, all you is come up a wet sinner.



May God bless, golfjack

Golfjack,

Doesn't the confession of our Lord as our Savior mean we obey His commands? What sort of ruler do you have in mind that you don't have to obey what He commands? No we don't have to do anything to be initially saved but confess our Lord. But as we have been discussing, there are multiple meanings of the word "save". To be eternally saved, you better believe you have to obey God's commandments. This is interwoven throughout Scriptures.

Regards