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God became Man under the name Jesus Christ.

S

SpiritualSon

Member
Jesus Christ is not the second person of the most Holy Trinity, He is the Holy Trinity.

It is impossible for the Divine Esse and Existere in itself , which is God Himself, to produce another god with the same Divine Esse and Existere in itself; therefore another God of the same Essence is impossible. It has been shown already that the one God who is the Creator of the universe, is Esse and Existere in itself, that is, God in Himself; and from this it follows that God from God is impossible, because in such a being the verily essential Divine, which is Esse and Existere in itself, is impossible. It is the same whether you say "begotten of God" or "proceeding from God;" it means, in either case, produced by God, and this differs but little from being created. Therefore, to introduce into the church a belief in three Divine persons each of whom each one is by himself a God, and of the same essence, one of them born from eternity, and a third proceeding from eternity, is to destroy the spiritual understanding of God's unity, and with it every idea of Divinity, and so cause all the spirituality of reason to be driven into darkness.

Harry :fadein:
 
MUTZ!!!

It's been a LONG TIME, my brother.

So, Spiritualson, 'exactly' what ARE you offering here? For MUCH of what you offer 'sounds' like 'your getting it'. But I'm still not sure 'exactly' what it is that you are 'trying to say'.

MEC
 
Harry holds to the beliefs and writings of Swedenborg -- Google it and you'll see.
 
You are mincing words that were never intended to be manipulated in the way you are speaking of. The title "trinity" is not a Biblical word but from reading the NT one can clearly see Jesus' divinity and his oneness with his Father, and that the Father gave Jesus "the Spirit without measure" (John 3:34). This easily gives one the impression of the oneness and coequality of the Father, Son, and Spirit - but philosophies were never meant to be contrived to explain the exact natrue of their persons, and indeed the Bible says that the depths of God are unsearchable.

I suggest that we leave the divinity of Christ at that and not to move past that in speculation and "disputes over doubtful things" (Romans 14:1). Paul warns about vain philosophy. If you delve too deep into a particular area which is not expressed in depth in Scripture then you are shouting what is whispered, but whispering what is shouted. The emphasis can be misplaced, and in the process something may be distorted, for being brought to such a big proportion, that it surpasses its original intention. If this forum is to be useful for anything in growing in the word of God it has to move past mere disputes and speculation, and has to move on into the depths of God's word and supply them for the edification of the saints. I see no such benefit to come from such a discussion as this, only diputing over "doubtful things" (Romans 14:1).

God Bless,

~Josh
 
Cyber,

I, for one, have NEVER denied the 'divinity' of Christ. NOR have I EVER denied the ONENESS of God and His Son. I have simply NEVER had 'trinity' REVEALED to me from The Spirit. And what I HAVE had revealed is 'the NATURE' of 'trinity'.

The ONLY begotten is SURELY distinctively speaking of His 'divinity'. And we KNOW from The Word that a man and woman 'become ONE' in marriage. That WE 'become ONE' with Christ upon the acceptance of Him into our hearts. And that God and Christ 'are ONE' in that they are both divine. I have found LITTLE, if ANY, argument against these precepts.

But 'trinity' is NOT offered through The Word. Oh yeah, those that created it, 'used' The Word in order to ATTEMPT to 'show it' through scripture. But the FACT remains that it does NOT exist in The Word. The concept MUST be taken SEPARATE from The Word and then 'inserted' into it for there to BE any indication of it to start with. In other words, it is 'very doubtful' that those that 'read' The Word found a 'trinity' in it, but instead, those that believed in a 'trinity' inserted it INTO The Word. Found vague passages that 'to THEM' indicated 'trinity' and then 'ran with it'.

Just like those that 'believe' in being 'slain in The Spirit'. AFTER the practice began, they dilligently sought Biblical example and used whatever splinters they could find in an attempt to 'justify' it. The same with tongues, etc, etc, etc,........... Even to the extent that they would 'twist' the words that STATE one thing into 'being', (in their minds) JUST the opposite of what they TRULY stated.

MEC
 
I think 'I AM WHO I AM' is a better representation of God; WHO being the Spirit of God and I AM being the light, God's temple/image. They are ONE; the Father being I AM WHO I AM, the Son being I AM and the Spirit being WHO. Even though I think it is true, I think it is still just a concept compared to the real thing.
 
A trinity is not made up of three persons as taught in the Christian Church. A trinity is the soul, body and spirit of the person, of all persons. The soul, body and spirit is the person himself. Therefore the Soul, Body and Spirit in Jesus Christ is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Jesus had said in John 14:9, "He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father." I and and My Father are one.

Now the God of peace, may He sanctify you all (entirely), the whole of
you, also may He keep the whole of you, spirit, soul and body
blamelessly in the coming (presence) of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1Thes 5:23

God is one: Traditional Christianity says that God is one, yet insists that there are three distinct Divine persons of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. When you have three persons who are all knowing, all powerful, and all present it makes three Gods. New Christianity says that God is one (Mark 12:32, Isaiah 44:6, Zecheriah 14:9). The one God of all, out of love and concern for the human race and the state of humanity at that time, took on a physical human conceived of the Divine and born of the virgin Mary. Within the human of Jesus was the Divine itself. Throughout His lifetime Jesus gradually got rid of what was merely human and took on more and more of the Divine within Him until He made His human completely Divine. This means, God is one, within whom is the Divine Trinity, and He is the Lord God the Savior Jesus Christ (Matthew 28:18). Just as we all have a soul, a body and the actions of our life (and are one person) so it is with God. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are names given for the soul, body and activity of the one God. One God, one divine person.

The doctrine of three Divine persons, both in past ages and at the present day, has sprung solely from a failure to understand the Divine Essence of God. It has been shown above that the unity of God is inmostly inscribed on the mind of every man, since it lies at the center of all that flows from God into the soul of man; and yet it has not descended into the human understanding, for the reason that the knowledges by which man must ascend to meet God have been lacking. For everyone must prepare the way for God, that is, must prepare himself for reception; and this is done by means of knowledges. The knowledges that have been lacking, and that enable the understanding to penetrate far enough to see that God is one, and that more than one Divine Essence is impossible. The true knowledges by means of which the human understanding rises, God holding it in His hand and leading it, may be likened to the steps of the ladder seen by Jacob, which was set upon the earth with the top of it reaching to heaven, by which the angels ascended while Jehovah stood above it (Gen. 28:12, 13).

The Lord had already made His second coming, and it was through a person, not myself, through Swedenborg. The Lord had given authority to Swedenborg to write, and it was the Lord who taught Swedenborg. The writings and true knowledges by Swedenborg are the steps of the ladder seen by Jacob,Gen. 28:12, 13. Those who read and understand the writings are able to climb up this ladder, which means are able to raise their understand up to God. That's why God was on top on the ladder.

Harry :fadein:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/swd/index.htm
 
SpiritualSon said:
A trinity is not made up of three persons as taught in the Christian Church. A trinity is the soul, body and spirit of the person, of all persons. The soul, body and spirit is the person himself...

...The Lord had already made His second coming, and it was through a person, not myself, through Swedenborg.
Click to expand...

Enough said...

It's Christmas time, so I will not comment any further on such things...
 
MarkT said:
I think 'I AM WHO I AM' is a better representation of God; WHO being the Spirit of God and I AM being the light, God's temple/image. They are ONE; the Father being I AM WHO I AM, the Son being I AM and the Spirit being WHO. Even though I think it is true, I think it is still just a concept compared to the real thing.
Click to expand...

Well then, at LEAST we can 'agree' upon THAT. Thanks for your offering.

MEC
 
Imagician said:
But 'trinity' is NOT offered through The Word. Oh yeah, those that created it, 'used' The Word in order to ATTEMPT to 'show it' through scripture. But the FACT remains that it does NOT exist in The Word. The concept MUST be taken SEPARATE from The Word and then 'inserted' into it for there to BE any indication of it to start with. In other words, it is 'very doubtful' that those that 'read' The Word found a 'trinity' in it, but instead, those that believed in a 'trinity' inserted it INTO The Word.
Click to expand...

I understand where you are coming from but I thought I covered this in my post. I said clearly, "The title "trinity" is not a Biblical word but from reading the NT one can clearly see Jesus' divinity and his oneness with his Father". The idea of the Trinity is so simple that it adds almost nothing, rather than to place the essence of the Godhead under one title. It is known in the Bible that God reveals himself in parts & pieces in different manifestations to his Children (thus why he has so many names in the OT) and Jesus was the manifestation (in the flesh) of God the Son. Both "God" and "Son" are used to refer to Jesus in the Bible, both "God" and "Father" are used to refer to "our heavenly" Father, and both "God" and "the Spirit" are used to refer to God's Holy Spirit. The doctrine of the Trinity merely makes a "therefore" statement, saying "These three are one and the same". This is not a streach by any means, unlike the OP - which also because of the poster's "Swedenborgean" leanings tends toward heretical ideas.

I hope you see what I was trying to say.

~Josh
 
Orion said:
"I and the Father are one."

The husband and wife shall become one.

:-?
Click to expand...

And upon the acceptance of Christ into our hearts; We too become ONE with Christ. But this certainly doesn't make any one us Christ Himself. Nor does a husband and wife becoming one in a 'union' of matrimony, make the husband The Wife, nor the Wife the Husband. But they become "one" in spirit.

MEC
 
"I and the Father are one."

The husband and wife shall become one.
Click to expand...

Those are talking about two different things, and as Jesus said: in Heaven no one will be married nor given in marriage, thus the oneness of the flesh between Husband and Wife is true & binding only until death.

Paul also says as much in Romans 7:1-3.
 
While the 'oneness' of God and Christ may NOT be the 'same' as a husband and wife becoming 'one', the 'understanding' IS the 'same'. As God and Christ ARE 'one' in Spirit, so too do the woman and man become one; IN SPIRIT.

But I can see that if one were to believe that Christ IS God, that this line of reasoning WOULD make it difficult to accept that WE TOO can become ONE with Christ. For that would be to say that; "We TOO can become one with God".

Yet The Word offers plainly that we CAN become 'one' with Christ. And you would offer that this is 'different' somehow, than Christ and God being 'one'. Can't you see how this 'influence' is able to alter the words offered into something that 'conforms' to a 'belief system' rather that the PLAIN TRUTH offered in The Word? For this belief system takes AWAY from the words offered by Christ Himself and insist that one follow a 'man-made' interpretation rather than the simplicity that IS Christ Jesus. It INSIST that man is able to offer understanding contradictory to the words offered by Christ and actually instill a 'belief' that these were 'inspired' by God.

Now, HOW is it possible for The Spirit to 'contradict' itself? The Spirit CANNOT.

God IS The Father and Christ IS The Son. Just as offered by Christ and His apostles. That there have been those that tried to worship Christ AS God offers nothing but misunderstanding. For as the apostles traveled and offered the Power of God through their miracles, many bowed their knees to worship THEM as God. Yet the apostles being WELL aware of the TRUTH would NOT allow this to be 'learned' acceptable. And they clearly offered those whose hearts were filled with awe that: NO, DO not bow and worship US, but He who offered the power THROUGH us.

Christ is MOST certainly worthy of our worship. For Christ IS The Son of God. And NOT ONLY The Son, but also capable of accomplishing EXACTLY what He was SENT to perform. Why do you suppose that we were given in The Word the FACT that Christ prayed to GOD, The Father, for STRENGTH to fulfill His mission? If Christ WERE God, this would make Him LOOK like a 'lunatic' to PRAY TO HIMSELF.

He prayed to The Father for FEAR that He may falter. And guys, God CANNOT falter. So the prudent thing to do when faced with such a situation IS to PRAY for the STRENGTH of God. For, where WE are weak, God is STRONG and able to offer this 'strength' to those that ask in FAITH.

NEVER forget that Christ WAS the example offered by God, NOT through God, but His Son whom He 'chose' to fulfill this offering. Christ was 'sent' and willingly took the form of man in order to live and die among us. In order to impart that which was 'all but lost' among God's chosen here on earth. To TEACH that which 'the law' had been unsuccessful in doing.

MEC
 
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

MEC, you are on a theological cliff with one foot off the edge and don't even realize it. In an effort to oversimplify your doctrines, you got confused. Your beliefs are very confusing to me... and please don't tell me it's because of what I've been taught. I'm not brainwashed into believing one thing over another.
 
francisdesales said:
SpiritualSon said:
A trinity is not made up of three persons as taught in the Christian Church. A trinity is the soul, body and spirit of the person, of all persons. The soul, body and spirit is the person himself...

...The Lord had already made His second coming, and it was through a person, not myself, through Swedenborg.
Click to expand...

Enough said...

It's Christmas time, so I will not comment any further on such things...
Click to expand...

Many Priests and Bishops are seeking power, and leading simple members of the Catholic Church in the wrong direction.

Harry
 
The Doctrine of the Church that is received in the whole Christian world is that Our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man, who, although He is God and Man, yet He is not two, but one Christ; one, by the taking of the manhood into God; one altogether, by unity of person; for as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ. These words are taken from the doctrine of the Athanasian Creed, which has been received in the whole Christian world; and they are what is essential in it concerning the unition of the Divine and the Human in the Lord. What is said further in that Creed about the Lord will be explained in its own chapter. From these words it is quite evident that it is in accordance with the faith of the Christian Church that the Divine and the Human in the Lord are not two, but one, as the soul and body are one man, and that the Divine in Him assumed the Human. The Soul of the Son came from the Father, not the mother.

From this it follows that the Divine cannot be separated from the Human, nor the Human from the Divine, for this would be like separating the soul from the body. That this is so must be admitted by every one who reads what is cited above (n. 9, 21) from two of the evangelists (namely, Luke 1:26-35, and Matt. 1:18-25) concerning the Lord's birth; from which it is manifest that Jesus was conceived of Jehovah God, and born of the virgin Mary; so that the Divine was in Him, and was His soul. As therefore His soul was the very Divine of the Father, it follows that His body, or Human, must also have become Divine for where the one is Divine, the other must be so too. In this way and in no other are the Father and the Son one, and the Father in the Son and the Son in the Father, and all things of the Son the Father's, and all things of the Father the Son's, as the Lord Himself teaches in His Word.

But how this unition was effected, shall be shown in the following order: i. The Lord from eternity is Jehovah the Father.

2. The Lord from eternity, or Jehovah, assumed the Human to save men.

3. Our Lord Jesus Christ made His Human Divine from the Divine Soul in Himself called the Father. That's why He said, My Father and I are one, just as the Soul and Body make one person.

4. He made Divine the Human by means of temptations admitted into Himself.

5. The full unition of the Divine and the Human in Him was effected by means of the passion of the cross, which was the last temptation.

5. By successive steps He put off the human taken from the mother, and put on a Human from the Divine within Him called the Father, which is the Divine Human, and is the Son of God.

7. That thus God became Man, as in first principles, so also in ultimates.

Harry :fadein:
 
vic C. said:
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

MEC, you are on a theological cliff with one foot off the edge and don't even realize it. In an effort to oversimplify your doctrines, you got confused. Your beliefs are very confusing to me... and please don't tell me it's because of what I've been taught. I'm not brainwashed into believing one thing over another.
Click to expand...

Hey Vic - Long time no post me to you.

I just read MEC's post. I can actually see and understand what he is saying. What is it specifically that you find confusing?

Over the years I have found that lack of understanding or confusion - or even just a plain missing of the point - can be attributed to a wrong premise. We become so focussed on our own premise or perspective that we filter everything else through it. This can only lead to confusion because if the foundation we stand on is not sound, ANYTHING (whether true or false) that we build on it, also cannot stand. So, it is imperative that what we stand on is THE TRUTH. Nothing less, nothing more.

Merry Christmas to you and yours
 
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