God Can't Do That?

[Narwhalist]

We are not to question God. That is arrogance and a lack of humility. His ways are above our ways. If we do not understand why God does some things, we are simply to trust in Him without doubt. God knows what He is doing, even if we do not. All things work together for those that love God.

Even when God had Joshua slay the Amalakites, men women, and children. Who really thinks that God did not have a good reason for that? So maybe we do not understand why. So what? I do understand that God is not willing that any should perish, and is so full of love that he let His own son die that we could live. So it stands to reason to me, that if God ordered all those people killed...that He had a very good reason for it. So I trust Him and question not. My understanding of that, is that they were a tainted bloodline, and that is why the women and children were killed also. Too much of a sidetrack to go into further in this thread, and even if I am wrong I still trust that he had a real good reason because God does not sinfully murder people.

I will never question God on why he does certain things. I imagine, that even though the Bible doesn't say so specifically, people like the Amalakites had their chance to accept the ways of God. They didn't so God destroyed a perverse society. I guarantee you, that if God new of any Amalakites worth saving, he would have made sure they were not killed. Why do I say this? Because he did this with Rahab in Jericho and Ruth the Moabite. This begs the question, were there any righteous people living in Noah's time before the flood, or in Sodom and Gomorrah? The only truly righteous person that ever lived was Jesus, but there were some in the past history of the world that strove to be righteous and thus found grace with God. Noah found grace with the Lord, but he sinned before the flood and after the flood. Yet God still made sure he was saved. Why only him and his family? I don't know, but I do not question God about His actions against humanity before the flood, or against people like the Amalakites or anything else He does for He is sovereign. What I do question is how we interpret the Bible, His word.
As far as sinfully murdering people, God does not do that. God is the author of life and is the only one who has the right to take a life. But our God is a just and loving judge. And I do not believe he would create people destined for hell without a choice. All people who wind up in hell do so because they chose to because everyone, during their lifetime, will get a chance to bow to, love and worship our creator.

 

[Chopper]

This seems to be the same type of thinking that led the Pharisees to criticize Jesus for spending too much time with prostitutes and tax collectors.

I personally find these Calvinist threads boring because they hinge on the mistaken belief that sovereignty is lost when any sovereign chooses to grant the wish of his subject.

That's perfectly alright my Brother, I find the Arminianist views boring.

 

[Chopper]

I would have to say that I agree. We do resist His sovereignty. We try desperately to put God in our box and define when he is right rather than kneeling before him. We define what God does or does not do in terms of what we feel is fair or right or just. Who are we to make that decision? If God doesn't do things so that we feel good, we are quick to turn away from him.

What is God in control of? Anything and everything he wishes to be in control of. Other ways of putting it might be that God is in the driver's seat, God is at the helm, God is in charge, God wears the crown, ...

Amen to that Brother! I think we forget that His ways are not our ways and thoughts are way above ours. He indeed wears the crown.

 

[Chopper]

Yet another way to express this concept is that we belong to Him. Bought and paid for by a price dear.

!Sparrow​

 

[Chopper]

Look around you. If God is in control, He is doing a terrible job. This answer is so general and vague how can it be helpful?

What we feel is right, should be in line with what God thinks is right. His ways are higher than our own but they are not past finding out before we ask for something.

Like the guy wanting Jesus to settle that dispute of some money owed. Jesus said, "Who made me the judge of that?" The guy figured the Lord would side with him and show everyone he was right. He might have been right, but that is not the way the Lord works.

What is his Sovereignty? What is that anyway? We are told that if we can have confidence that if we ask anything according to his will we know he hears us, and if he hears us we have OUR petitions desired of him. That means before we even pray, we better know exactly what God thinks about it and how He will respond.

No, God is in control of the person on the path of the just. You get off that path, the will of God then you are in the dark.

Mike.

Welllllll God is in control Mike whether you believe it or not. 2 Thess. 2:7 "Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way". Whether that is the Holy Spirit or the Church of which the gates of hell will not prevail, God is in control.

 

[Chopper]

We are not to question God. That is arrogance and a lack of humility. His ways are above our ways. If we do not understand why God does some things, we are simply to trust in Him without doubt. God knows what He is doing, even if we do not. All things work together for those that love God.

Even when God had Joshua slay the Amalakites, men women, and children. Who really thinks that God did not have a good reason for that? So maybe we do not understand why. So what? I do understand that God is not willing that any should perish, and is so full of love that he let His own son die that we could live. So it stands to reason to me, that if God ordered all those people killed...that He had a very good reason for it. So I trust Him and question not. My understanding of that, is that they were a tainted bloodline, and that is why the women and children were killed also. Too much of a sidetrack to go into further in this thread, and even if I am wrong I still trust that he had a real good reason because God does not sinfully murder people.

I agree with you Edward, God did have a very good reason for the demise of those people. Your statement "they were a tainted bloodline" is the answer to my thread. Thank you, and as far as I'm concerned we can end this thread before it gets out of hand.

 

[WIP]

Look around you. If God is in control, He is doing a terrible job. This answer is so general and vague how can it be helpful?

What we feel is right, should be in line with what God thinks is right. His ways are higher than our own but they are not past finding out before we ask for something.

Like the guy wanting Jesus to settle that dispute of some money owed. Jesus said, "Who made me the judge of that?" The guy figured the Lord would side with him and show everyone he was right. He might have been right, but that is not the way the Lord works.

What is his Sovereignty? What is that anyway? We are told that if we can have confidence that if we ask anything according to his will we know he hears us, and if he hears us we have OUR petitions desired of him. That means before we even pray, we better know exactly what God thinks about it and how He will respond.

No, God is in control of the person on the path of the just. You get off that path, the will of God then you are in the dark.

Mike.

So are you suggesting that God is out of control and He is unable to impart His will upon the earth? Is it possible what we are witnessing is something similar to what is spoken of in Romans 1?

26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.
27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;
29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers,
30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful;
32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

More than once I have made a statement something like this. "Just believe. No proof required." When I make this statement I often get responses that dispute what I am saying. My point in making this statement is that I believe that we are called to believe and trust in God with a child-like faith.

From Mark 10 we read
13 Then they brought little children to Him, that He might touch them; but the disciples rebuked those who brought them.
14 But when Jesus saw it, He was greatly displeased and said to them, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God.
15 Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it.”
16 And He took them up in His arms, laid His hands on them, and blessed them.

The way I understand these verses is to look at a toddler's relationship with his/her parents. When they are frightened or shy who do they cling to? Their parents. They trust their parents without question even though they don't understand what it is they are necessarily putting their trust in. I don't have to know precisely what God's will is for me but I can still trust that whatever it is I can trust Him to carry it out to His end.

 

[Brother Mike]

So are you suggesting that God is out of control and He is unable to impart His will upon the earth? Is it possible what we are witnessing is something similar to what is spoken of in Romans 1?

More than once I have made a statement something like this. "Just believe. No proof required." When I make this statement I often get responses that dispute what I am saying. My point in making this statement is that I believe that we are called to believe and trust in God with a child-like faith.

His will is enforced when we take the reigns.

Pro 29:2 When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.

Jesus said all things are possible to him that believe........................................ What If we don't believe, then what happens to us?

Jas 1:6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
Jas 1:7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

Wavering is taking two positions on something, it's asking God one thing but speaking another. It's like believing God for healing while trying to find a casket and plan a funeral just in case God don't come through. It's considering plan B just in case God is taking a vacation.

We don't determine the will of God by the outcome, we determine the will of God before the outcome.

God is not in control of everything that happens on the planet, in fact he does not even have his hand in it.

Now you talk about child like faith, someone that trust God and does what God says to do............. David says God knows the paths behind and ahead. God's plan for your life is predetermined and you follow that then everything God planed comes to pass. You get off God's plan into the path of the dark and you remove yourself from that protection and God's will. You can't be out of the will of God and expect God to be in control anymore.

So when we talk about stuff like this one must understand that Sovereign God means that God's word is right for every situation and fixes every situation because God in his divine power gave the answers to everything years ago with great foreknowledge and wisdom. If a person will have ears to hear, then the Word works for those that will work it.

Jesus said Gods will be done on earth as it is in Heaven. God is in complete control of Heaven but He gave the earth to man. We can see that with man being in control, God's control is not evident in those that don't obey and follow him.

Peter said they seen the Miracles, seen their plan, seen great things but said we have a More sure word of prophecy. What God says to us is conditional for each persons life. You be willing and obedient you eat the good of the land.

The more sure Word says how it's going to all end. We can't change that, but we can choose to be on God's path and finish our race.

Example:

I got taken to Jail a couple years ago, in the jail with me was a young man that I was able to greatly help and get his life in the right direction with the Lord. I was able to encourage him and give him direction by some things the Lord told me to tell him.

Now, was it God's plan I went to jail to talk with this man?

NO.................. It was my fault because the Holy Spirit prompted me several times to check into my drivers license. It had been revoked by the court and all I had to do was just renew it but I never checked into it so I never knew it was revoked. I figured it was all OK. Now me ignoring the Holy Spirit put me in jail for a day. True, a man was there to be helped, but ignoring the Holy Spirit put me out of God's control to keep me out of jail.
A whole lot of things people say is God, God had nothing to do with it or is in control of it. God did not tell you to hunt that cheeseburger you dropped in the floor board of your car causing you to smack into that tree. It was not God's greater purpose to cause you a car crash to get closer to him.
When I was in prison I would hear testimonies about how God put them in prison to get their attention and save them. I understand people are happy to know the Lord and would have been glad to go to prison to find Jesus just once they find out how great Jesus is.

However......................

God never told you to rob that bank to get you into prison.

What people need to understand is that God is the master of fixing dumb people as he sent his Word to deliver us from our own mess (Destructions) God did it time and time again for Israel and He does it for us when we are not following his plan and out of his zone of control.

Stay on the path, do all He says do, Serve and obey him, follow the Holy Spirit when prompted with something following the peace in your heart about things and God will stay in complete control of your life.

 

[reba]

Keep on topic and civil moderator
not necessarily directed at the last poster...

 

[Chopper]

So are you suggesting that God is out of control and He is unable to impart His will upon the earth? Is it possible what we are witnessing is something similar to what is spoken of in Romans 1?

26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.
27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;
29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers,
30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful;
32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

More than once I have made a statement something like this. "Just believe. No proof required." When I make this statement I often get responses that dispute what I am saying. My point in making this statement is that I believe that we are called to believe and trust in God with a child-like faith.

From Mark 10 we read
13 Then they brought little children to Him, that He might touch them; but the disciples rebuked those who brought them.
14 But when Jesus saw it, He was greatly displeased and said to them, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God.
15 Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it.”
16 And He took them up in His arms, laid His hands on them, and blessed them.

The way I understand these verses is to look at a toddler's relationship with his/her parents. When they are frightened or shy who do they cling to? Their parents. They trust their parents without question even though they don't understand what it is they are necessarily putting their trust in. I don't have to know precisely what God's will is for me but I can still trust that whatever it is I can trust Him to carry it out to His end.

I really like, and agree with you. Oh, if I could only, always, Keep that in mind.

 

[Chopper]

Keep on topic and civil moderator
not necessarily directed at the last poster...

I'm trying!

 

[reba]

What ever God does is Godly. His action, inaction, thoughts words what ever it is is Godly... He is Thee Sovereign, From a Godly sneeze to the Creation of all we know.

LOL Chopper

 

[dc.apostello]

We are not to question God. That is arrogance and a lack of humility. His ways are above our ways. If we do not understand why God does some things, we are simply to trust in Him without doubt. God knows what He is doing, even if we do not. All things work together for those that love God.

Even when God had Joshua slay the Amalakites, men women, and children. Who really thinks that God did not have a good reason for that? So maybe we do not understand why. So what? I do understand that God is not willing that any should perish, and is so full of love that he let His own son die that we could live. So it stands to reason to me, that if God ordered all those people killed...that He had a very good reason for it. So I trust Him and question not. My understanding of that, is that they were a tainted bloodline, and that is why the women and children were killed also. Too much of a sidetrack to go into further in this thread, and even if I am wrong I still trust that he had a real good reason because God does not sinfully murder people.

What ever God does is Godly. His action, inaction, thoughts words what ever it is is Godly... He is Thee Sovereign, From a Godly sneeze to the Creation of all we know.

LOL Chopper

 

[dc.apostello]

i as a believer in the lord jesus christ (not a christian) was shown this put the word in chronological order whats before the cross,then what now applies to us new covenant believers from the resurrection, the now.before the cross our foolish minds were darken. now as each person receives salvation our spiriits have the capacity to know all things even the deep things of god. the holy spirit is more willing to show us than we are to recieve.educate your spirit at the expense of your head your spirit has the ability to retain the word.

 

[Narwhalist]

What you said was, "It always amazes me how people interpret Biblical scriptures". and at the end of your post you said "Also, by interpreting Scripture the way you have, you ignore......." That strikes at my ability, through the Holy Spirit, to interpret Scriptures! By saying that, you set yourself above me in your heart, and become my teacher. Not that I know everything and can't take instruction, it is how you present yourself that is an insult.

If you can't tell me why Joshua, under the command of God, killed all those men, women, and children, then you won't understand my thread.

I'll tell you a little bit about "people's ability to, through the Holy Spirit, to interpret Scriptures." My brother-in-law is a minister. He says the Holy Spirit is the one that leads him to scripture interpretations. Yet he says the Holy Spirit tells him we can lose our salvation, we need to be baptized or we are not saved. Furthermore, according to him we need to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. If we are baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit we are dead. We also need to speak in tongues in order to show we are saved. Yet he says the Holy Spirit guides him. Others will tell you no, only belief in the Lord saves you and you won't lose it. They are also lead by the Holy Spirit. There are those that say that God has chosen the ones who will be saved and that the other have no choice but to suffer eternal damnation in hell. They also are led by the Holy Spirit. There are those who say the opposite, and they too are led by the Holy Spirit. You get my drift. So, am I questioning the Holy Spirit's ability to lead. Absolutely no!! I am questioning our abilities to follow the Holy Spirit and thus we let our emotions and arrogance and preconceived ideas to influence us. We don't believe what we read, instead we read what we believe when looking at scriptures. I myself have struggled with this and I am open to change my views when someone shows me scripturally I am wrong. I am constantly questioning myself about what I know, because if I don't it will lead to arrogance and I will never find the truth behind the word of God. I have answered, to the best of my abilities and understanding, your question about the Amalakites in my previous post. This is not a personal attack on you, but I disagree with your stance on election and I stated why with scriptures to back me up. Is God sovereign? Absolutely. Can He control everything? Yes. Does He? I don't believe so and He does it by choice to allow us free will to make choices. Is it arrogant of me to pretend I understand some of the workings of our Lord? I don't think so. There are things we will never understand, and I never question Him on those things, but I do try to understand as much as I can.

 

[Brother Mike]

Thank you brother. As you are obviously aware of already, these things can be a very touchy subject to discuss in open forum. If you would like to discuss it privately between ourselves, please feel free to PM me and we can toss it around a little without fear of offending anyone. You are a very open minded individual, and that is a blessing from God. Have a good day brother, I'm out the door to go work. Praise the Lord.

I am all good, I will never go crying to any Moderator like a school girl. Iron sharpens Iron, not silly putty sharpens Iron.

Now if someone is here to harm the site or do harm to a member then I will go crying like a school girl, I have gotten past being personally offended as the wife is the only one that can have that position.

I am still waiting on a Good explanation of God is Sovereign and how that applies to the believer. We have examples of people who don't obey God and things not working out for them at all, but that don't cover anything.

Also notice that God left the heathen nations alone unless his people were there or they might effect his people. You don't touch the anointed of God and you don't mess with his plans for his people.

Mike.

 

[Chopper]

I'll tell you a little bit about "people's ability to, through the Holy Spirit, to interpret Scriptures." My brother-in-law is a minister. He says the Holy Spirit is the one that leads him to scripture interpretations. Yet he says the Holy Spirit tells him we can lose our salvation, we need to be baptized or we are not saved. Furthermore, according to him we need to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. If we are baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit we are dead. We also need to speak in tongues in order to show we are saved. Yet he says the Holy Spirit guides him. Others will tell you no, only belief in the Lord saves you and you won't lose it. They are also lead by the Holy Spirit. There are those that say that God has chosen the ones who will be saved and that the other have no choice but to suffer eternal damnation in hell. They also are led by the Holy Spirit. There are those who say the opposite, and they too are led by the Holy Spirit. You get my drift. So, am I questioning the Holy Spirit's ability to lead. Absolutely no!! I am questioning our abilities to follow the Holy Spirit and thus we let our emotions and arrogance and preconceived ideas to influence us. We don't believe what we read, instead we read what we believe when looking at scriptures. I myself have struggled with this and I am open to change my views when someone shows me scripturally I am wrong. I am constantly questioning myself about what I know, because if I don't it will lead to arrogance and I will never find the truth behind the word of God. I have answered, to the best of my abilities and understanding, your question about the Amalakites in my previous post. This is not a personal attack on you, but I disagree with your stance on election and I stated why with scriptures to back me up. Is God sovereign? Absolutely. Can He control everything? Yes. Does He? I don't believe so and He does it by choice to allow us free will to make choices. Is it arrogant of me to pretend I understand some of the workings of our Lord? I don't think so. There are things we will never understand, and I never question Him on those things, but I do try to understand as much as I can.

OK Brother, we can agree to disagree, I'm always ready to do that with anyone who dosen't agree with my theology. I know what you are saying about being led by the Holy Spirit. Unfortunately some are led by unholy spirits and casts a bad shadow on those who are really led by the Holy Spirit. My love for you in Jesus will not change just because we disagree....Peace, my Brother and blessings. So we won't any more.

 

[Brother Mike]

Narwhalist Brother in-law must be an Apostolic.

Your election Doctrine Chopper and quoting John Calvin who did an excellent job of bible study is not 100% accurate. John Calvin had to memorize a whole lot to just make scripture comparison and tried his best to understand the plan of salvation way back when?

You can't have one scripture contradiction though.

Deu_30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Who chooses? We do, God is not making the choice for us. We just don't take a few scriptures and ignore other scriptures.

Rev_13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

We can take verses and make stuff up, this one appears that every name had been chosen before the foundation of the World. That is not what it says though.

Luk_11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

God's Prophets were also giving the Word from that foundation of the World and those that had an ear to hear got their names written in the book from the start of the Word going out.

Those that had ears to hear (A heart that wants to understand) will hear. If you want to find the issue of those not hearing....

2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

It's for whosoever will call out and believe. Not who God picks and chooses. In fact there is no scripture that says God' picks and choose who gets saved, but a whole lot of scripture that says whosoever will believe.

I am sure if John Calvin had the access to the quick and powerful study tools we had, he would have been able to do a whole lot better study and come to different conclusions.

Mike.

 

[Chopper]

I am all good, I will never go crying to any Moderator like a school girl. Iron sharpens Iron, not silly putty sharpens Iron.

Now if someone is here to harm the site or do harm to a member then I will go crying like a school girl, I have gotten past being personally offended as the wife is the only one that can have that position.

I am still waiting on a Good explanation of God is Sovereign and how that applies to the believer. We have examples of people who don't obey God and things not working out for them at all, but that don't cover anything.

Also notice that God left the heathen nations alone unless his people were there or they might effect his people. You don't touch the anointed of God and you don't mess with his plans for his people.

Mike.

Sovereignty is a theological term given by Theologians because of the Name for God in Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning Elohim created the heavens and the earth". The Name Elohim contains the idea of creative and governing power, of omnipotence and sovereignty. Sovereignty, according to Webster is unlimited power, and Independent authority and right to govern itself.

How does it apply to believers? God, in Himself, is all powerful with no need for, outside of Himself, help, or wisdom, knowledge, power to accomplish anything. He is self sufficient. Therefore I can and do trust Him for all my needs. I don't have to turn to anything, or anyone for anything!

 

[Brother Mike]

Sovereignty is a theological term given by Theologians because of the Name for God in Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning Elohim created the heavens and the earth". The Name Elohim contains the idea of creative and governing power, of omnipotence and sovereignty. Sovereignty, according to Webster is unlimited power, and Independent authority and right to govern itself.

How does it apply to believers? God, in Himself, is all powerful with no need for, outside of Himself, help, or wisdom, knowledge, power to accomplish anything. He is self sufficient. Therefore I can and do trust Him for all my needs. I don't have to turn to anything, or anyone for anything!

Trusting in the arm of man brings a snare. Pulling on people to meet your needs brings a snare. God is our source, no question and those struggling year after year need to be faithful, willing and obedient to connect to that source.

Sovereignty: I am not questioning the fact God could not stick his head through the clouds and yell Knell and every knee on the planet would hit the dirt. I am questioning mans idea of who God is and how God operates when we talk about Sovereign God.

Conditional:

Is a word I would like to bring up, because not everyone experiences or sees the goodness of God. Since it's the Lord's will to bless (Jesus saying it's his good pleasure to give us the kingdom) and everyone is not blessed then despite the will of God we still don't see everyone blessed.

Jesus said in Mark 10..... With man it's impossible but not with God. Everything is possible with God but then Jesus goes on to say no man has left all and not received 100 fold now in this time. Man can't give 100 fold back on interest, Not a problem with God but we see a condition again................ It's for those that gave all for the gospel.

We talk about grace a lot but that is God's part. We often miss and don't talk about our part.

Mike.