God Can't Do That?

[Chopper]

Narwhalist Brother in-law must be an Apostolic.

Your election Doctrine Chopper and quoting John Calvin who did an excellent job of bible study is not 100% accurate. John Calvin had to memorize a whole lot to just make scripture comparison and tried his best to understand the plan of salvation way back when?

You can't have one scripture contradiction though.

Deu_30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Who chooses? We do, God is not making the choice for us. We just don't take a few scriptures and ignore other scriptures.

Rev_13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

We can take verses and make stuff up, this one appears that every name had been chosen before the foundation of the World. That is not what it says though.

Luk_11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

God's Prophets were also giving the Word from that foundation of the World and those that had an ear to hear got their names written in the book from the start of the Word going out.

Those that had ears to hear (A heart that wants to understand) will hear. If you want to find the issue of those not hearing....

2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

It's for whosoever will call out and believe. Not who God picks and chooses. In fact there is no scripture that says God' picks and choose who gets saved, but a whole lot of scripture that says whosoever will believe.

I am sure if John Calvin had the access to the quick and powerful study tools we had, he would have been able to do a whole lot better study and come to different conclusions.

Mike.

I'm sure that Mr Calvin would refer you to Romans 9:11-23. That Scripture explains his theory. Especially, V.22 "What if God, desires to show His wrath and to make known His power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath Prepared for destruction."

 

[Free]

OK Brother, we can agree to disagree, I'm always ready to do that with anyone who dosen't agree with my theology. I know what you are saying about being led by the Holy Spirit. Unfortunately some are led by unholy spirits and casts a bad shadow on those who are really led by the Holy Spirit.

And which are you led by? You seem to be insinuating that the brother-in-law with whom you disagree is being "led by unholy spirits," and that you are one who is "really led by the Holy Spirit." I sure hope that is not what you're saying.

I have pointed out time and time again on these forums that simply saying, "The Holy Spirit gave me this interpretation," or some variant, just does not do. Everyone who says this has disagreements with everyone else who says it, about a certain verse or passage. Clearly not all can be right, so each thinks they are the ones truly led, whether they say it outright or not.


As to the OP, if people have no free choice, God is unjust in sending them to hell. Justice only makes sense when persons are free to choose between doing good and doing evil.

 

[Brother Mike]

I'm sure that Mr Calvin would refer you to Romans 9:11-23. That Scripture explains his theory. Especially, V.22 "What if God, desires to show His wrath and to make known His power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath Prepared for destruction."

Ok Chopper, we are going to have to stop, I'll just off. Personal attack

What happened to Pharaoh? God told Moses........... I don't "THINK" he will let you go peacefully without a heavy hand. God knew Pharaoh but was not 100% sure Pharaoh would not let them go peacefully. That is scripture so God was dealing with the situation according to Pharaoh's heart and God told Moses to get ready because Pharaoh will most likely need Smacked around a bit for him to comply.

God put up with Pharaoh for a very long time, as he was in charge of God's people.

You need to compare and read the "WHOLE" Scripture, not just the part you like best.

Rom_9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

What happened to Pharaoh was Pharaoh's choice. Pharaoh left God no choice and God gave him a very long time to get it right.

You also did not quote this scripture.

1Th 4:4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;

Who's responsibility is it to not become a vessel that gets destroyed? Who's?

2Ti 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
What do you do if your a vessel of dishonor? Just like Pharaoh whom God put up with all those years?

2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
According to you Chopper and the way you quoted Romans, if we are a vessel to dishonour then we need to stay that way because God made us that way and not do a thing to get it right and obey God.

That is not scripture, and your not taking all the scriptures into account.

Mike.

As to the OP, if people have no free choice, God is unjust in sending them to hell. Justice only makes sense when persons are free to choose between doing good and doing evil.

You said something that I agree with....... Someone call a news team

 

[Deborah13]

I'm sure that Mr Calvin would refer you to Romans 9:11-23. That Scripture explains his theory. Especially, V.22 "What if God, desires to show His wrath and to make known His power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath Prepared for destruction."

What was God being longsuffering (patient) about?
Well when I look at the Greek word 'prepared' or 'fitted' in the KJV, it means to 'adapt' or 'complete' the whole phrase being 'having been adapted'. The word 'G2675' becoming from 'G2596 = down' and 'G739 = complete thoroughly'.

Now that says to me, that God was patiently waiting for the adaption to be complete.
If one must be adapted then that person was not born that way.

 

[Chopper]

OK folks, I started this thread with the idea of focusing on the Biblical fact that a few people in Scripture, Perhaps what Edward suggested, from a tainted blood line, I don't know, They were used by God to demonstrate His power over evil. These people like Pharaoh were used for this purpose. Would they make it to God's Kingdom? No!

This is my position:
Eph. 1:4 God, before the foundation of the world chose certain people to be holy. Over the centuries, they would be birthed into certain generations to be a holy witness to that generation.

Romans 9:16 Says, God's choice of showing mercy or wrath does not depend on the person's choices but on God. The whole ninth chapter explains this hard to accept Biblical teaching....We are only talking about a few people that are used by God in this fashion. Pharaoh and Judas are examples.

2 Peter 3:9 Says that the Lord is not willing that any person perish in hell, but that everyone would repent of their sins and be saved.

We therefore have two classes of people entering into God's plan to populate His kingdom.
1. The elect - Ephesians 1:4
2. The folk who come in by the General Call of the Gospel. - 2 Peter 3:9

The Elect are those who somehow were known by God before the worlds were made. He decided when we would be born, what generation we would be born in, and what gifts of the Holy Spirit we would have to reach the sphere of influence He would place us into. Thats why it is said, "Seek first the Kingdom of God."

The G.C. (general call) folk come to repentance through the ministry of great men like D.L. Moody, Billy Graham etc. This is a large group of believers. Some are true believers and mixed in are folk who like the Mt. 13 Sower & seed, only one out of four are really saved. (I don't know if that's a correct %) but you get my point.

That's it folks! If you have an argument with that? you owe me 10 bucks! :woot

 

[Chopper]

i as a believer in the lord jesus christ (not a christian) was shown this put the word in chronological order whats before the cross,then what now applies to us new covenant believers from the resurrection, the now.before the cross our foolish minds were darken. now as each person receives salvation our spiriits have the capacity to know all things even the deep things of god. the holy spirit is more willing to show us than we are to recieve.educate your spirit at the expense of your head your spirit has the ability to retain the word.

o_O

 

[Chopper]

And which are you led by? You seem to be insinuating that the brother-in-law with whom you disagree is being "led by unholy spirits," and that you are one who is "really led by the Holy Spirit." I sure hope that is not what you're saying.

I have pointed out time and time again on these forums that simply saying, "The Holy Spirit gave me this interpretation," or some variant, just does not do. Everyone who says this has disagreements with everyone else who says it, about a certain verse or passage. Clearly not all can be right, so each thinks they are the ones truly led, whether they say it outright or not.


As to the OP, if people have no free choice, God is unjust in sending them to hell. Justice only makes sense when persons are free to choose between doing good and doing evil.

Thank you for that post Free, Wow, I didn't mean for that statement to even hint that I'm the only one who really hears the Holy Spirit. In essence I was agreeing with his statement....The very few times that I have felt the Holy Spirit's moving, I always say "I think" the Holy Spirit.....

I have made my position quite clear in my last post. I hope you read it and feel OK with it. Perhaps I should have presented that statement in the first place. Like Edward said. "These thing are very touchy." Next time I won't be so careless, and thread a complete thought.

Thank you again for your response, I'm in agreement with you're choice statement. Everyone has a choice, except a rock.

 

[Deborah13]

OK folks, I started this thread with the idea of focusing on the Biblical fact that a few people in Scripture, Perhaps what Edward suggested, from a tainted blood line, I don't know, They were used by God to demonstrate His power over evil. These people like Pharaoh were used for this purpose. Would they make it to God's Kingdom? No!

This is my position:
Eph. 1:4 God, before the foundation of the world chose certain people to be holy. Over the centuries, they would be birthed into certain generations to be a holy witness to that generation.

Romans 9:16 Says, God's choice of showing mercy or wrath does not depend on the person's choices but on God. The whole ninth chapter explains this hard to accept Biblical teaching....We are only talking about a few people that are used by God in this fashion. Pharaoh and Judas are examples.

2 Peter 3:9 Says that the Lord is not willing that any person perish in hell, but that everyone would repent of their sins and be saved.

We therefore have two classes of people entering into God's plan to populate His kingdom.
1. The elect - Ephesians 1:4
2. The folk who come in by the General Call of the Gospel. - 2 Peter 3:9

The Elect are those who somehow were known by God before the worlds were made. He decided when we would be born, what generation we would be born in, and what gifts of the Holy Spirit we would have to reach the sphere of influence He would place us into. Thats why it is said, "Seek first the Kingdom of God."

The G.C. (general call) folk come to repentance through the ministry of great men like D.L. Moody, Billy Graham etc. This is a large group of believers. Some are true believers and mixed in are folk who like the Mt. 13 Sower & seed, only one out of four are really saved. (I don't know if that's a correct %) but you get my point.

That's it folks! If you have an argument with that? you owe me 10 bucks! :woot

My problem with what you are saying it this....

Romans 8 NASB
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? 33 Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; 34 who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. 35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 Just as it is written,

In Romans 8, Paul is talking about all those who are saved and calls them the elect. At least that is how I interpret it.
What is your's?

 

[Brother Mike]

In Romans 8, Paul is talking about all those who are saved and calls them the elect. At least that is how I interpret it.
What is your's?

Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

You know Mike does not believe in taking a set of scriptures and giving them your own Spin Doctrine on them. (Private interpretation) In fact the Holy Spirit will even connect line upon line, comparing spiritual with spiritual (Gods Word is Spirit and Truth) for you if we get our nasty old broken doctrine out of the way and be willing to let the Word correct us, not us change or correct the Word.

Elect just means Chosen.......... That is it. It's not that we first loved him but He first loved us. (John said that somewhere) Who did our Lord Jesus die for?

The Holy Spirit already knew there would be a False Election doctrine, and it's amazing how the Holy Spirit knowing ahead of time fixes these doctrinal issues. Who's sins did Jesus die for?

1Jn_2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

The Holy Spirit tells us we are the elect (Chosen) because we had faith in the Grace that gave us eternal life. We are God's workmanship and God has a set path for each of us as a body part in the body of Christ and God puts us in the Body according to ability given us. (Look at the parable of the talents)

There is not ONE scripture telling us of any man that came from the Womb with a set and predestined path. NOT ONE!!!! (That was a sure thing as God puts the spirit in man with a plan for everyone that will hear)

What about Jesus?

Jesus had to follow the same rules everyone else has to follow. That is why he was taken to the desert to be tempted, he passed the test and was faithful with little and much was given to him.

Even Jesus did not start out with the full favor of God.......................... Now if Jesus did not start out with the full favor of God then none of us do either.

Election is a FALSE DOCTRINE!!!

Luk_2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

Now if Jesus had to increase in favor then He is our example to follow.

It's always been those that will believe as every man is given the measure of faith........... Every single person on the planet has that measure of faith. It is possible for them to believe and take action.

Rom_12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Even Abraham.................... How does God know to make him the Father of many nations? He had to be faithful in little and much more was given. That is how God knows.
Gen_22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

When did God know? When Abraham was willing to give all to God. This Got Abraham forever mentioned. Nothing was more important to Abraham than obeying God, even his own son whom he waited for a very long time.

Election wants us to believe that no matter what we do, what we say, how we act, what choices we make and take action to does not matter. If God picked us to be saved then nothing can change that....

That is false, and not scriptural on so many levels.

Mike.

 

[Deborah13]

Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

You know Mike does not believe in taking a set of scriptures and giving them your own Spin Doctrine on them. (Private interpretation) In fact the Holy Spirit will even connect line upon line, comparing spiritual with spiritual (Gods Word is Spirit and Truth) for you if we get our nasty old broken doctrine out of the way and be willing to let the Word correct us, not us change or correct the Word.

Elect just means Chosen.......... That is it. It's not that we first loved him but He first loved us. (John said that somewhere) Who did our Lord Jesus die for?

The Holy Spirit already knew there would be a False Election doctrine, and it's amazing how the Holy Spirit knowing ahead of time fixes these doctrinal issues. Who's sins did Jesus die for?

1Jn_2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

The Holy Spirit tells us we are the elect (Chosen) because we had faith in the Grace that gave us eternal life. We are God's workmanship and God has a set path for each of us as a body part in the body of Christ and God puts us in the Body according to ability given us. (Look at the parable of the talents)

There is not ONE scripture telling us of any man that came from the Womb with a set and predestined path. NOT ONE!!!! (That was a sure thing as God puts the spirit in man with a plan for everyone that will hear)

What about Jesus?

Jesus had to follow the same rules everyone else has to follow. That is why he was taken to the desert to be tempted, he passed the test and was faithful with little and much was given to him.

Even Jesus did not start out with the full favor of God.......................... Now if Jesus did not start out with the full favor of God then none of us do either.

Election is a FALSE DOCTRINE!!!

Luk_2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

Now if Jesus had to increase in favor then He is our example to follow.

It's always been those that will believe as every man is given the measure of faith........... Every single person on the planet has that measure of faith. It is possible for them to believe and take action.

Rom_12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Even Abraham.................... How does God know to make him the Father of many nations? He had to be faithful in little and much more was given. That is how God knows.
Gen_22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

When did God know? When Abraham was willing to give all to God. This Got Abraham forever mentioned. Nothing was more important to Abraham than obeying God, even his own son whom he waited for a very long time.

Election wants us to believe that no matter what we do, what we say, how we act, what choices we make and take action to does not matter. If God picked us to be saved then nothing can change that....

That is false, and not scriptural on so many levels.

Mike.

Election wants us to believe that no matter what we do, what we say, how we act, what choices we make and take action to does not matter. If God picked us to be saved then nothing can change that....

This idea does not bother me as much as thinking that God would create people in His own image but not allow them to be saved and then condemn them because they do not.
That I think, would mean that when God said Pharaoh 'would not' He really meant, 'I won't let you'.
And when Jesus wept over Jerusalem and said, "you would not' He really meant God wouldn't let them.

 

[Brother Mike]

That I think, would mean that when God said Pharaoh 'would not' He really meant, 'I won't let you'.
And when Jesus wept over Jerusalem and said, "you would not' He really meant God wouldn't let them.

Praise God!!! If we examine what Paul actually said and compare, If we are a vessel to dishonor WE....... WE.........WE are to purge ourselves to become a vessel of Honor. Pharaoh did not do that and Pharaoh was very hard headed.

Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

Paul's whole message was that God was just not the God of Israel. We have to read the whole thing, and a vessel to dishonor can have help from God to be an honorable one. Whom God will have mercy on, He has Mercy and God extend that Mercy to the Whole World.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Jacob was suppose to serve Esau and Esau was suppose to get the blessing (Empowerment by God) from Issac. It was Esau that did not value his birthright and sold it for a bowl of food. Esau chose that, not God. This upset God because Esau did not value anything the Lord had for him.

Your right Deborah....... Those that believe in Election think the Word says something different than it does.
He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? And he answering said unto him,

(Now, Now, I am the Lord and I know who I picked to be saved and I know that tree won't bear fruit, so don't waste you time and chop it down, and put it into the fire)...........................

This is what they think Jesus should have said..............

This is what Jesus actually said.........give the tree help and see....................
Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.
(Luk 13:6-9)

Election wants us to believe that no matter what we do, what we say, how we act, what choices we make and take action to does not matter. If God picked us to be saved then nothing can change that....

It's called no fault religion. No matter what I do, say, believe, it's God's fault if it works out good and God's fault if it works out bad. God controls everything and I am not responsible to believe a thing.

It's a strong demonic doctrine because Satan was able to put people in a place where He has taken their faith away to believe God. The only thing people can believe God for is just to get saved and that is it. They are taught to pray if it be thy will God and Satan will use them for a rug and steal, kill, destroy them and their families.

Everything that happens is for God's greater purpose and his mysterious Sovereign will that we are to stupid to understand.

It's a irresponsible spiritual position to take as Jesus said I will have what I say and believe, that I am responsible for having the faith to complete the plan of God. It's my job to fight the fight of faith when sickness comes and give no place to the devil. If something bad happens, It's my fault if the weapon formed against me prospered.
I don't blame God, God is my help, not my issue.

Mike.

 

[Chopper]

Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

You know Mike does not believe in taking a set of scriptures and giving them your own Spin Doctrine on them. (Private interpretation) In fact the Holy Spirit will even connect line upon line, comparing spiritual with spiritual (Gods Word is Spirit and Truth) for you if we get our nasty old broken doctrine out of the way and be willing to let the Word correct us, not us change or correct the Word.

Elect just means Chosen.......... That is it. It's not that we first loved him but He first loved us. (John said that somewhere) Who did our Lord Jesus die for?

The Holy Spirit already knew there would be a False Election doctrine, and it's amazing how the Holy Spirit knowing ahead of time fixes these doctrinal issues. Who's sins did Jesus die for?

1Jn_2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

The Holy Spirit tells us we are the elect (Chosen) because we had faith in the Grace that gave us eternal life. We are God's workmanship and God has a set path for each of us as a body part in the body of Christ and God puts us in the Body according to ability given us. (Look at the parable of the talents)

There is not ONE scripture telling us of any man that came from the Womb with a set and predestined path. NOT ONE!!!! (That was a sure thing as God puts the spirit in man with a plan for everyone that will hear)

What about Jesus?

Jesus had to follow the same rules everyone else has to follow. That is why he was taken to the desert to be tempted, he passed the test and was faithful with little and much was given to him.

Even Jesus did not start out with the full favor of God.......................... Now if Jesus did not start out with the full favor of God then none of us do either.

Election is a FALSE DOCTRINE!!!

Luk_2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

Now if Jesus had to increase in favor then He is our example to follow.

It's always been those that will believe as every man is given the measure of faith........... Every single person on the planet has that measure of faith. It is possible for them to believe and take action.

Rom_12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Even Abraham.................... How does God know to make him the Father of many nations? He had to be faithful in little and much more was given. That is how God knows.
Gen_22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

When did God know? When Abraham was willing to give all to God. This Got Abraham forever mentioned. Nothing was more important to Abraham than obeying God, even his own son whom he waited for a very long time.

Election wants us to believe that no matter what we do, what we say, how we act, what choices we make and take action to does not matter. If God picked us to be saved then nothing can change that....

That is false, and not scriptural on so many levels.

Mike.

I'm just going to give you one Scripture that proves an error in your, I don't know, heated reply? Boy do you get worked up. You know Mike? There's nothing wrong with the way I presented Scripture. Teachers do it all the time. Probably your preacher did it last Sunday. I think if I gave you a hundred dollar bill, you'd not like the color! What's wrong? Did I say or do something to torque you off?

You say there is not one Scripture that tell of any man that came from the womb with a set and predentioned path NOT ONE!!!! Well guess what! You'd better read Jeremiah 1:5 "Now the word of the Lord came to me, saying, Before I formed you in the WOMB I knew you, and before you were born I appointed you a Prophet to the nation." Mike, I'm having a hard time with your responses. They come across as angry, and you're saying things that are not true.

As far as I'm concerned, Reba, or Free or any Mod. you can close this thread. We seem to be

 

[Brother Mike]

You say there is not one Scripture that tell of any man that came from the womb with a set and predentioned path NOT ONE!!!! Well guess what! You'd better read Jeremiah 1:5 "Now the word of the Lord came to me, saying, Before I formed you in the WOMB I knew you, and before you were born I appointed you a Prophet to the nation."

Chopper I am not mad, this doctrine of God picking and choosing who gets saved is wrong, I gave lots of scriptures you have not even addressed. If you are strong in something and believe in something then you should have no issues addresses all the "Counter Scriptures" Every single scripture must line up and not contradict, not just the ones we pick and choose.

Also Chopper you might want to consider that you need to study this out a lot more before drawing any "Election" conclusion. I have done that, and checked everything God knows, does not know. What God elects (Like the body part in the body) what God does not pick and choose.

I am surprised you think I missed Jeremiah 1:5. It was because of that one scripture that people misuse.......... (Just one scripture taken out of context) is why I added this....

MIKE:

There is not ONE scripture telling us of any man that came from the Womb with a set and predestined path. NOT ONE!!!! (That was a sure thing as God puts the spirit in man with a plan for everyone that will hear)

Every spirit God puts in man he does with a purpose, a plan, a calling. I said that was a sure thing without man doing what man is suppose to do!!!! Including Jeremiah!!!

Then Chopper I gave the scripture about Jesus who increased in the favor of God, just like Jeremiah had to do.

I am backing up everything line upon line and in more than one place and handful of scriptures that the "Election" Doctrine uses. I have lots of scripture and all the Elections scriptures have more understanding with other scriptures being compared.

So I was not forgetting that scripture in Jeremiah, because..............

(Hence Why I said)
That was a sure thing as God puts the spirit in man with a plan for everyone that will hear. ( I put this in here because of the scripture in Jer 1:5!!!!!!)
(Then showed Jesus who was chosen and called even had to prove himself with scripture!!!)

.......... its so misquoted that I believed we were past the point of using the old election attempts with new info and revelation. I was wrong.

Take all the scripture, compare and ask yourself why so many do not support some Election Doctrine.

Nobody is mad, if what you believe is not holding up to all the scriptures mentioned then time to change as the Word should change us, not us be stubborn and unteachable.

Mike.

 

[Chopper]

Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

You know Mike does not believe in taking a set of scriptures and giving them your own Spin Doctrine on them. (Private interpretation) In fact the Holy Spirit will even connect line upon line, comparing spiritual with spiritual (Gods Word is Spirit and Truth) for you if we get our nasty old broken doctrine out of the way and be willing to let the Word correct us, not us change or correct the Word.

Elect just means Chosen.......... That is it. It's not that we first loved him but He first loved us. (John said that somewhere) Who did our Lord Jesus die for?

The Holy Spirit already knew there would be a False Election doctrine, and it's amazing how the Holy Spirit knowing ahead of time fixes these doctrinal issues. Who's sins did Jesus die for?

1Jn_2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

The Holy Spirit tells us we are the elect (Chosen) because we had faith in the Grace that gave us eternal life. We are God's workmanship and God has a set path for each of us as a body part in the body of Christ and God puts us in the Body according to ability given us. (Look at the parable of the talents)

There is not ONE scripture telling us of any man that came from the Womb with a set and predestined path. NOT ONE!!!! (That was a sure thing as God puts the spirit in man with a plan for everyone that will hear)

What about Jesus?

Jesus had to follow the same rules everyone else has to follow. That is why he was taken to the desert to be tempted, he passed the test and was faithful with little and much was given to him.

Even Jesus did not start out with the full favor of God.......................... Now if Jesus did not start out with the full favor of God then none of us do either.

Election is a FALSE DOCTRINE!!!

Luk_2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

Now if Jesus had to increase in favor then He is our example to follow.

It's always been those that will believe as every man is given the measure of faith........... Every single person on the planet has that measure of faith. It is possible for them to believe and take action.

Rom_12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Even Abraham.................... How does God know to make him the Father of many nations? He had to be faithful in little and much more was given. That is how God knows.
Gen_22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

When did God know? When Abraham was willing to give all to God. This Got Abraham forever mentioned. Nothing was more important to Abraham than obeying God, even his own son whom he waited for a very long time.

Election wants us to believe that no matter what we do, what we say, how we act, what choices we make and take action to does not matter. If God picked us to be saved then nothing can change that....

That is false, and not scriptural on so many levels.

Mike.

"Even Jesus did not start out with the full favor of God" Mike, you do the same thing that you slam others for doing. That statement is your slant on Jesus' early life. Show me where it says "full favor of God" No contradictions!

 

[Chopper]

Chopper I am not mad, this doctrine of God picking and choosing who gets saved is wrong, I gave lots of scriptures you have not even addressed. If you are strong in something and believe in something then you should have no issues addresses all the "Counter Scriptures" Every single scripture must line up and not contradict, not just the ones we pick and choose.

Also Chopper you might want to consider that you need to study this out a lot more before drawing any "Election" conclusion. I have done that, and checked everything God knows, does not know. What God elects (Like the body part in the body) what God does not pick and choose.

I am surprised you think I missed Jeremiah 1:5. It was because of that one scripture that people misuse.......... (Just one scripture taken out of context) is why I added this....
MIKE:


Every spirit God puts in man he does with a purpose, a plan, a calling. I said that was a sure thing without man doing what man is suppose to do!!!! Including Jeremiah!!!

Then Chopper I gave the scripture about Jesus who increased in the favor of God, just like Jeremiah had to do.

I am backing up everything line upon line and in more than one place and handful of scriptures that the "Election" Doctrine uses. I have lots of scripture and all the Elections scriptures have more understanding with other scriptures being compared.

So I was not forgetting that scripture in Jeremiah, because..............

(Hence Why I said)
That was a sure thing as God puts the spirit in man with a plan for everyone that will hear. ( I put this in here because of the scripture in Jer 1:5!!!!!!)
(Then showed Jesus who was chosen and called even had to prove himself with scripture!!!)

.......... its so misquoted that I believed we were past the point of using the old election attempts with new info and revelation. I was wrong.

Take all the scripture, compare and ask yourself why so many do not support some Election Doctrine.

Nobody is mad, if what you believe is not holding up to all the scriptures mentioned then time to change as the Word should change us, not us be stubborn and unteachable.

Mike.

OK Mike, Whatever! I'm through.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

When people really understand that a sovereign God does not extend Salvation to certain people they say, "God can't do that?" Does He?
We should not invest a lot of time on people who's sin keeps them outside of God's grace,, but invest our time worshiping the One Who wanted to spend eternity with.

It sounds like you're speaking on both sides of an argument. At first you mention God's sovereign nature being the basis of election and therefore the limiting factor on whether a person can even accept the gospel, then you go on to assert that "sinning" people are at fault for not receiving God's grace. The God you describe is self contradictory and comes across as being very unjust. Not exactly a flattering depiction of the Sovereign God Choppa..........

....The sovereignty of God is meant to motivate believers to love each other and to good works.

This concept of God's sovereignty is ideal if the goal to forced, coersive measures to ensure adherance to precepts a person of group of persons with influence deem worthy of being considered the will of God.

 

[Brother Mike]

It sounds like you're speaking on both sides of an argument. At first you mention God's sovereign nature being the basis of election and therefore the limiting factor on whether a person can even accept the gospel, then you go on to assert that "sinning" people are at fault for not receiving God's grace. The God you describe is self contradictory and comes across as being very unjust. Not exactly a flattering depiction of the Sovereign God Choppa..........


This concept of God's sovereignty is ideal if the goal to forced, coersive measures to ensure adherance to precepts a person of group of persons with influence deem worthy of being considered the will of God. (I understood half of this....... English Use English!!!)

I have to agree, I am reading some see saw here from Chopper.

OK Mike, Whatever! I'm through.

Through with what Chopper? Take this opportunity, Sort out what you really believe because just coming at you as a Hard Core election with you looking as if your on both sides is not helping at all.

I look at these situations where I have very worded people that know lots of stuff to examine what I believe. Wherever your at, that is what you hear most and one reason I really like the forums because once in awhile someone post a scripture that makes me go to God with it.

Chopper, you have a awesome position here. You only what is right with God in the Word.

If I believe it's the will of God to heal, but find out God made David's baby sick and the baby died, then I don't teach anyone it's God's will to heal until God clears that up for me.

More than once I have gone to the Lord and told him, I can no longer teach this with a scripture that contradicts here. You have to show me before we can go on in this area. I can not tolerate any things that contradict in my mind, because I know that there is no scripture that contradicts. Everything stops until God gets some light to me. and shows me.

I stopped teaching that God never uses pain to teach us because of Job. I read it over and over and over and I told the Lord that if you sent Satan to murder those kids of Job's then I need to know why or else I can't tell others you won't do the same to them.

One day I was studying Mark chapter 4 and the Lord spoke saying, "You know, I had nothing to do with what happened to Job."

Well, I did not know, but I should have known the Lord better than that. That is when the 6 months of every day spending in Job started and I sure did not see it for the first 5 months. If the Lord said he had nothing to do with it, then It had to be somewhere.

What I did not have a revelation about was FEAR. I knew it was bad, I just never knew how bad fear is. All Job feared is what happened to him.

Chopper you have been given lots of scripture to counter this Election Doctrine. Calvin is wrong, He missed it but that does not mean he did bad. I admire the diligence with the tools he had.

If I was in your shoes I would have written them all down and went to God with it. God is no respecter of persons and never created anything to fail.

You should be happy, not be frustrated.

Mike.

 

[Chopper]

I have to agree, I am reading some see saw here from Chopper.



Through with what Chopper? Take this opportunity, Sort out what you really believe because just coming at you as a Hard Core election with you looking as if your on both sides is not helping at all.

I look at these situations where I have very worded people that know lots of stuff to examine what I believe. Wherever your at, that is what you hear most and one reason I really like the forums because once in awhile someone post a scripture that makes me go to God with it.

Chopper, you have a awesome position here. You only what is right with God in the Word.

If I believe it's the will of God to heal, but find out God made David's baby sick and the baby died, then I don't teach anyone it's God's will to heal until God clears that up for me.

More than once I have gone to the Lord and told him, I can no longer teach this with a scripture that contradicts here. You have to show me before we can go on in this area. I can not tolerate any things that contradict in my mind, because I know that there is no scripture that contradicts. Everything stops until God gets some light to me. and shows me.

I stopped teaching that God never uses pain to teach us because of Job. I read it over and over and over and I told the Lord that if you sent Satan to murder those kids of Job's then I need to know why or else I can't tell others you won't do the same to them.

One day I was studying Mark chapter 4 and the Lord spoke saying, "You know, I had nothing to do with what happened to Job."

Well, I did not know, but I should have known the Lord better than that. That is when the 6 months of every day spending in Job started and I sure did not see it for the first 5 months. If the Lord said he had nothing to do with it, then It had to be somewhere.

What I did not have a revelation about was FEAR. I knew it was bad, I just never knew how bad fear is. All Job feared is what happened to him.

Chopper you have been given lots of scripture to counter this Election Doctrine. Calvin is wrong, He missed it but that does not mean he did bad. I admire the diligence with the tools he had.

If I was in your shoes I would have written them all down and went to God with it. God is no respecter of persons and never created anything to fail.

You should be happy, not be frustrated.

Mike.

Mike, I haven't answered your Scripture that you say counters election, because it doesn't! I wonder if you really know about election. With 29 Scriptural references in the OT & NT combined dealing with election. What exactly don't you understand. Don't throw fifty verses at me, what do you disagree with me and Calvin about election.

 

[Brother Mike]

Mike, I haven't answered your Scripture that you say counters election, because it doesn't! I wonder if you really know about election. With 29 Scriptural references in the OT & NT combined dealing with election. What exactly don't you understand. Don't throw fifty verses at me, what do you disagree with me and Calvin about election.

You just reset the conversation on me brother. I can give you 50 references as to why Election Doctrine is wrong. However, now I have to exactly understand Your stance on Election since Calvin had backed off Hyper Calvinism unlike those that originally followed as He saw something more.

We also have to come to some middle ground. If a scripture says something then that is how it is, if another scripture says something else then we have to give a REASONABLE answer also.

Reasonable means it's possible. That is what I look for. I may not agree with the view but is the person being Led by the Holy Spirit enough to cover every single contradiction and what they believe just might be possible.

Truth Over Tradition does not agree with me on every view, more not than often. However, he counters or at least has an answer for every scripture I post, and though I don't agree with him, I at least understand what he is referring to.

Take Isa 14 for example. We talking about Satan or human king? I fully believe God is referring to Satan, however how Truth over Tradition would explain it makes sense also because the scripture does say what he says.

As for Election, God says he is no respecter of persons. We have to deal with that scripture and 100 more, you have to ask yourself if........

A) your willing to change if the scriptures prove Election wrong or at least what you thought was election.
B) Would spend the time asking God about those (Hard against) election scriptures.

For example, God says he kills and makes alive, Jacob's hip, Paul's thorn. If I believe it's the will of God that all be healed, then I have to deal with everything, and though someone might not agree, I have to at least come out being Spirit led to be very, very reasonable.

There is layers upon layers of revelation God gives us, we have not even scratched the surface yet.

So, since we are back at square one......... and every denomination has some form of Election Doctrine, then what you believe would be helpful as to not address things that are perceived you believe.

For example if someone says that God is manifest in 3 different personalities, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and I say that is hogwash (It is) then it's real easy to think I am a JW or something.

I want to avoid that.

Blessings.......... keep on studying!!

Mike.

 

[Chopper]

You just reset the conversation on me brother. I can give you 50 references as to why Election Doctrine is wrong. However, now I have to exactly understand Your stance on Election since Calvin had backed off Hyper Calvinism unlike those that originally followed as He saw something more.

We also have to come to some middle ground. If a scripture says something then that is how it is, if another scripture says something else then we have to give a REASONABLE answer also.

Reasonable means it's possible. That is what I look for. I may not agree with the view but is the person being Led by the Holy Spirit enough to cover every single contradiction and what they believe just might be possible.

Truth Over Tradition does not agree with me on every view, more not than often. However, he counters or at least has an answer for every scripture I post, and though I don't agree with him, I at least understand what he is referring to.

Take Isa 14 for example. We talking about Satan or human king? I fully believe God is referring to Satan, however how Truth over Tradition would explain it makes sense also because the scripture does say what he says.

As for Election, God says he is no respecter of persons. We have to deal with that scripture and 100 more, you have to ask yourself if........

A) your willing to change if the scriptures prove Election wrong or at least what you thought was election.
B) Would spend the time asking God about those (Hard against) election scriptures.

For example, God says he kills and makes alive, Jacob's hip, Paul's thorn. If I believe it's the will of God that all be healed, then I have to deal with everything, and though someone might not agree, I have to at least come out being Spirit led to be very, very reasonable.

There is layers upon layers of revelation God gives us, we have not even scratched the surface yet.

So, since we are back at square one......... and every denomination has some form of Election Doctrine, then what you believe would be helpful as to not address things that are perceived you believe.

For example if someone says that God is manifest in 3 different personalities, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and I say that is hogwash (It is) then it's real easy to think I am a JW or something.

I want to avoid that.

Blessings.......... keep on studying!!

Mike.

OK my friend, actually I thought better of just stopping this thread. Because of all the misunderstanding of my position I will go on to defend that position and hopefully straighten out some thinking....First of all Mike, I want you to read my post #47. Now this statement is for everyone who has participated in my thread. I am NOT a hypercalvinist. I am NOT a five point Calvinist. I am a four point Calvinist (actually there is no such thing) I think, where most who were a part of this thread misunderstood my position is when Pharaoh was mentioned. Somehow people thought that I believed that anyone who is not "elect" (called before the foundation of the world) would fall into this category. If somehow I hinted at that I'm sorry because that is not what I believe. The Pharaoh's and the conquests of Joshua are in the past, not present, that I know of. OK, that leaves the people that are left who are not the "called" ones (elect). Those people fall under a position that I have coined "GC" or "General Call" of the Gospel. This is where evangelists operate. This is what post #47 presents, I think. So, now that you know clearly what my position is, what's wrong?