God, Mother of all

[PDoug]

And as for God the holy spirit being the mother of the universe. Where on earth do people get this tripe from?

BTW it was the Spirit of God that planted the seed in Mary if there is any significance in that to anyone.

You people will not have faith correctly, so you linger in ignorance just like the Jews who lambasted Christ for the ‘foolishness’ He spoke.

If someone is born of the Holy Spirit (John 3:8), yet has the Father for a father, how can the Holy Spirit be masculine? Where in all of creation has two males given birth to children? Everyone who is born of God is therefore born of the Father, and of the Holy Spirit, who is his / her mother.

If you would like to side with the Catholic Church which conveniently disposed of all scriptures that did not support its politics, then so be it. But don’t speak as if righteousness is on your side, when you belittle the valid, tossed out scriptures, that plainly state that the Holy Spirit is female. (P.S. Your behavior gives you away - Matthew 7:15-20).

 

[Novum]

Imagican is not insulting women. That's all I am saying.

In your opinion. Perhaps we could put his statement in a poll and run it nationally; what do you think the results would be?

The Bible is clearly teaching women's role and Christians should respect it. You are not Christian so you would not understand.

Ginger, that's called poisoning the well and is clearly one of your favorite logical fallacies. If you want to have a serious discussion, you can kindly leave this garbage behind.

 

[gingercat]

Good day, novum.

 

[Novum]

Good day, novum.

I thought so.

Gentle forum reader, notice how gingercat continually backs out when confronted with the absurdity of her statements. I am an atheist, but I have no quarrel with christians - only with poor reasoning and intolerance. To those who would spout unabashed hate speech (Imagican) and those who support them (gingercat), we should have nothing but disgust. The only thing we are justified in being intolerant of is intolerance itself.

 

[gingercat]

Good day, novum.

I thought so.

Gentle forum reader, notice how gingercat continually backs out when confronted with the absurdity of her statements. I am an atheist, but I have no quarrel with christians - only with poor reasoning and intolerance. To those who would spout unabashed hate speech (Imagican) and those who support them (gingercat), we should have nothing but disgust. The only thing we are justified in being intolerant of is intolerance itself.

Novum,

You are not a Christian and you are not following the Bible's principle whatsoever.

This is Christian forum and you seem to forget it. You should be thankful that this forum is even toleranting your behavior. They are trying their best to be considerate to non-believers; it is because they are Christians.

I am only speaking from Christian point of view. You have been attacking how untrue the Bible is. You never know about the Bible and God unless you follow God with all your might.

I encouraged you to follow Jesus with all your might and you are refusing to do it. You have no business attacking Christians.

It takes real men and women to follow Jesus.

Christians are not perfect but Jesus is showing us perfect ways and we are trying our best to follow Him.

 

[Novum]

I am only speaking from Christian point of view.

No ginger, you are quite clearly not speaking from the Christian point of view. We have seen at least one Christian in this thread alone disagree with you on this issue. It is very likely that we could find other forum members who disagree with you, and it is a certainty that there are millions, if not billions more Christians worldwide who disagree with you here.

You have been attacking how untrue the Bible is. You never know about the Bible and God unless you follow God with all your might.

No ginger, you are quite clearly wrong. I, and millions of other nonchristians who have studied the christian bible, know a great deal about it and your god.

I encouraged you to follow Jesus with all your might and you are refusing to do it. You have no business attacking Christians.

No ginger, you are quite clearly wrong. It is completely irrelevant whether or not you are Christian. The fact of the matter is that, when people like you and Imagican spout unabashed hate speech and argue in favor of full-out gender discrimination, you deserve to be told just how wrong you are. I don't care what your religion is; your morality is stuck in the 15th century and we have no use for that garbage today.

It takes real men and women to follow Jesus.

Thankfully, the vast majority of these "real men and women" have not succumbed to your barbaric, vile ideas.

 

[mutzrein]

Novum

I’m quite intrigued as to why someone like yourself would want to study the bible and know about God. Really I see no difference between the likes of you and millions of people who have done exactly the same thing but who DO call themselves Christians. The only difference seems to be that you state you are not a Christian whereas they state they are Christians, and that BECAUSE they read the bible and try to live good lives.

And herein lies a great fallacy. You (I mean anyone) can read the bible to familiarise yourself with ‘christian’ beliefs. You can read the bible to know about God. But it doesn’t amount to a hill of beans to anyone to know ‘about’ these things if they don’t in fact ‘know’ these things.

So you can talk about things that Christians do and how many millions would agree or disagree with a particular statement someone else makes and from your perspective I may agree with you. But from mine, the vast majority of people who call themselves Christians are not. The vast majority of ‘church-goers’ believe they are righteous BECAUSE they read the bible and BECAUSE of the things they do. In truth they are like you. I would call them Pharisees but you Nicodemus.

Knowledge OF God is one thing. Being his child is another.

 

[gingercat]

Novum,

I really don't care if you or anyone else tell me how wrong I am. I am here to speak for my Lord, and not anyone can take that privilege away from me. :angel:

 

[Novum]

Novum

I’m quite intrigued as to why someone like yourself would want to study the bible and know about God.

I think you'll find that a lot of atheists, in general, tend to have studied religion - either formally (in university, perhaps) or informally (self-driven study). And I think it makes a lot of sense to do so; religion is unarguably an incredibly prevalent and important aspect of almost all societies today, and for that reason alone it makes sense to be well-versed (no pun intended) in the holy books of all religions, if only to better understand one's fellow man.

Really I see no difference between the likes of you and millions of people who have done exactly the same thing but who DO call themselves Christians. The only difference seems to be that you state you are not a Christian whereas they state they are Christians, and that BECAUSE they read the bible and try to live good lives.

Well, hang on a second. I said I studied the bible, not that I agreed with it; I think that's a far more important difference than any label I may choose to attach to myself. ;)

And herein lies a great fallacy. You (I mean anyone) can read the bible to familiarise yourself with ‘christian’ beliefs. You can read the bible to know about God. But it doesn’t amount to a hill of beans to anyone to know ‘about’ these things if they don’t in fact ‘know’ these things.

So you can talk about things that Christians do and how many millions would agree or disagree with a particular statement someone else makes and from your perspective I may agree with you. But from mine, the vast majority of people who call themselves Christians are not. The vast majority of ‘church-goers’ believe they are righteous BECAUSE they read the bible and BECAUSE of the things they do. In truth they are like you. I would call them Pharisees but you Nicodemus.

Emphasis mine. We've been here before in many, many threads. The Catholics don't believe the Protestants are christian, the Protestants think the Catholics are loony, and everyone thinks that the atheists are nutjobs.

The fact remains that it is nonsensical and downright impossible to speak of a "true Christian", largely because most christians think that they are one and that some assorted group of others are not. So who are you - or I, or anyone - to say who "knows" god or who "knows" Christianity?

So, even if the atheist does not believe in god, why should that somehow invalidate his knowledge of the bible (or Qu'ran, or so forth)?

 

[Novum]

Novum,

I really don't care if you or anyone else tell me how wrong I am. I am here to speak for my Lord, and not anyone can take that privilege away from me. :angel:

Forum readers, this is fundamentalism in a nutshell. What we see here is

1) the complete inability to admit that she might be mistaken, and
2) the complete certainty that her views are perfectly in line with her god, and
3) the complete certainty that others' views are wrong.

Ginger, and those who believe as she does, are in a world of their own making. Logic and rationality have no place where people like her reside.

 

[gingercat]

Novum,

You seem very focused on what others think. I am Christian, and I follow what Jesus wants me to do and it is very seriouse for His followers. If I am wrong on my discernment I am in deep trouble with the Lord. I cannot blame anyone but myself.

 

[belovedwolfofgod]

taking this in a new direction:
eve=mother of all who live
jesus=new adam
mary=new eve, mother of all christians.

there is your christian family. God is devoid of gender, however his characteristics are gernally something paternal. Mary is mother.

 

[Novum]

Novum,

You seem very focused on what others think. I am Christian, and I follow what Jesus wants me to do and it is very seriouse for His followers.

No, you follow what you think Jesus wants you to do. You cannot seem to stop generalizing your beliefs onto all Christians, and if I were a Christian, I think I'd be justified in taking offense that you were trying to dictate my beliefs for me.

 

[gingercat]

Novum,

You seem very focused on what others think. I am Christian, and I follow what Jesus wants me to do and it is very seriouse for His followers.

No, you follow what you think Jesus wants you to do. You cannot seem to stop generalizing your beliefs onto all Christians, and if I were a Christian, I think I'd be justified in taking offense that you were trying to dictate my beliefs for me.

You are entitled to your own disbelief and opinions. :D

 

[Novum]

You are entitled to your own disbelief and opinions. :D

As are you. One of us recognizes this, the other does not. I'll give you one guess who's who.

 

[mutzrein]

taking this in a new direction:
eve=mother of all who live
jesus=new adam
mary=new eve, mother of all christians.

there is your christian family. God is devoid of gender, however his characteristics are gernally something paternal. Mary is mother.

Talk about perverse. By using these analogies Jesus was also married to his mother.

 

[Imagican]

Nov,

Once again, you simply 'prove' that the Word of God is but 'foolishness' in the eyes of the 'world'. You would simply 'promote' the will of the world instead of even taking the will of God into consideration. You would bring about the fall of the those around you simply for the sake of 'self'. Much like the 'father' that you follow, you insist upon 'yourself' and others as 'their OWN gods'. You would subvert those that are 'weak' in understanding simply to appease the evil desires of your OWN soul. Forsaking ANY love of brother or sister. I forgive you brother, can you forgive yourself?

Women who accept Christ into their hearts KNOW what I offer. Those that don't, choose to follow instead, the spirit of Eve. This comes as NO surprise. And those, such as yourself, that would subvert them will ONLY be answerable for their own folly and that which they incourage in others. Beware my friend. There will be those that offer, what others with itchy ears, wish to hear. That has NO effect on those that truly choose to follow our Lord through Love.

So really, Nov, you have NO power over those that KNOW the truth. You are 'weak' and therefore ONLY have influence on those that are 'weaker' than yourself. Hope that is 'enough' to satisfy your fleshly lusts.

 

[PDoug]

Women who accept Christ into their hearts KNOW what I offer.

What is that? You talking to them as if they are dogs? You can pontificate religious remarks till you are blue, however at the end of the day, it is your actions which bear witness of who you really are are.

 

[Novum]

Darn Imagican. We were having such a good discussion until you had to go and trash it with this latest post of yours. No, I'm honestly not being sarcastic.

Nov,

Once again, you simply 'prove' that the Word of God is but 'foolishness' in the eyes of the 'world'. You would simply 'promote' the will of the world instead of even taking the will of God into consideration.

You are quite simply wrong, Imagican. I have spent a great deal of time studying the bible in an attempt to discover and understand the "will of god". You have also not defined what you mean by "the will of the world".

You would bring about the fall of the those around you simply for the sake of 'self'.

You are quite simply wrong, Imagican. Your paranoid delusions about my personal agenda have been shown time and time again to be baseless and without merit. It's all in your mind.

Much like the 'father' that you follow, you insist upon 'yourself' and others as 'their OWN gods'.

You are quite simply wrong, Imagican. I follow no higher being, nor have I ever claimed that I am my own god or that other people are their own gods. You have been called out on this time and time again, yet you have never been able to provide evidence from my posts that I have ever stated or claimed this. Know why? Because you are lying.

You would subvert those that are 'weak' in understanding simply to appease the evil desires of your OWN soul. Forsaking ANY love of brother or sister.

You are quite simply wrong, Imagican. Your paranoid delusions seem to be growing both in intensity and in scope.

Women who accept Christ into their hearts KNOW what I offer. Those that don't, choose to follow instead, the spirit of Eve.

You are quite simply wrong, Imagican. Your laughable attempt to broadly define what a "Christian woman" is is, quite simply, laughable.

This comes as NO surprise. And those, such as yourself, that would subvert them will ONLY be answerable for their own folly and that which they incourage in others. Beware my friend. There will be those that offer, what others with itchy ears, wish to hear. That has NO effect on those that truly choose to follow our Lord through Love.

So really, Nov, you have NO power over those that KNOW the truth. You are 'weak' and therefore ONLY have influence on those that are 'weaker' than yourself. Hope that is 'enough' to satisfy your fleshly lusts.

Blah blah blah, more paranoia and delusions. Imagican, until you provide a shred of evidence for any of your claims, you need to stop asserting your private little fantasies as true. Get over yourself.

 

[mutzrein]

The fact remains that it is nonsensical and downright impossible to speak of a "true Christian", largely because most christians think that they are one and that some assorted group of others are not. So who are you - or I, or anyone - to say who "knows" god or who "knows" Christianity?

So, even if the atheist does not believe in god, why should that somehow invalidate his knowledge of the bible (or Qu'ran, or so forth)?

Thanks Novum.

I think we would agree on this that being an atheist or agnostic or Moslem or whatever does not invalidate knowledge of the bible should that person want to study it. However, knowledge is not the same as understanding. And understanding can only come if what is read is interpreted correctly.

Think about this.

A document has been produced that is deemed by many to contain the secret to life after death (eternal life).
Now many of course don’t believe in such a thing so it doesn’t bother them – “why read it,†they say.
Others also disbelieving, for one reason or another may read it and declare it contains nothing out of the ordinary and therefore conclude that it is no more significant than ‘winnie the pooh.’

Still other’s believe there is merit in the claims and they study it every which way and come to the conclusion that if they follow the things that are written in the book, then they will indeed obtain what is claimed.

And then there are those who seemingly are compelled to read it. In fact they find it the most profound thing they have ever read. Not only does it make sense, they find comfort, strength, confirmation and direction almost as though it is speaking directly to them.

You see it’s all about the same book and yet the response to it by each group is so different. So what is the difference between these groups? It is this. Only the last group has been given the key to understanding it. And what is the key? While others can read it and gain knowledge of God and things pertaining to his people, they can never really ‘know’ what it means unless they ARE one of God’s children. Because the book is FOR them. It can never be anything more than just information to those who are not God’s children. And even those who think they are God’s children (but are not) can only approach it as a set of rules or a guide. Now, God’s children are those who are born of the Spirit of God. Since it is the Spirit that has given them life, the same Spirit that has inspired the book, gives insight and understanding to things within it.

But let’s not forget. Those who have received the Spirit can in no way elevate themselves over others, taking pride in the fact that they have something that others don’t. Those who do, must accept that anything they have, hasn’t been earned. At the point they become puffed up with their own importance, they forget the grace of God and fall into self-righteousness - which unfortunately is all too prevalent in Christendom.

What do you think?