GOD OF THE OT / GOD OF THE NT.......IS IT THE SAME GOD?

[GodsGrace]

Common question.
Different answers.
Wm Lane Craig has a new one that is rather disturbing.

Persons are rather disturbed that God ordered all men, women and CHILDREN, to be killed

Numbers 31:

​

New Living Translation Par ▾ Conquest of the Midianites 1Then the LORD said to Moses, 2“On behalf of the people of Israel, take revenge on the Midianites for leading them into idolatry. After that, you will die and join your ancestors.” 3So Moses said to the people, “Choose some men, and arm them to fight the LORD’s war of revenge against Midian. 4From each tribe of Israel, send 1,000 men into battle.” 5So they chose 1,000 men from each tribe of Israel, a total of 12,000 men armed for battle. 6Then Moses sent them out, 1,000 men from each tribe, and Phinehas son of Eleazar the priest led them into battle. They carried along the holy objects of the sanctuary and the trumpets for sounding the charge. 7They attacked Midian as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. 8All five of the Midianite kings—Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba—died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. 9Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. 10They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. 11After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, 12they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho. 13Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14But Moses was furious with all the generals and captainsa who had returned from the battle. 15“Why have you let all the women live?” he demanded. 16“These are the very ones who followed Balaam’s advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD’s people. 17So kill all the boys and all the women who have had intercourse with a man. 18Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves. 19And all of you who have killed anyone or touched a dead body must stay outside the camp for seven days. You must purify yourselves and your captives on the third and seventh days. 20Purify all your clothing, too, and everything made of leather, goat hair, or wood.”

Craig stated it's OK because God created them and has the authority to kill them....
The children will be better off in heaven...

I believe we must all come to terms with the Old Testament God.
Although the attributes are the same, God, in the OT, does seem to compromise His nature by ordering killings.

How did you come to terms with this problem?


Riven

 

[Humblepie]

Maybe he didn't want the bloodline of christ contaminated with the serpents seed so he ordered for them to be exterminated.

KJV Gen 3:15 and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Common question.
Different answers.
Wm Lane Craig has a new one that is rather disturbing.

Persons are rather disturbed that God ordered all men, women and CHILDREN, to be killed

Numbers 31:

​

New Living Translation Par ▾ Conquest of the Midianites 1Then the LORD said to Moses, 2“On behalf of the people of Israel, take revenge on the Midianites for leading them into idolatry. After that, you will die and join your ancestors.” 3So Moses said to the people, “Choose some men, and arm them to fight the LORD’s war of revenge against Midian. 4From each tribe of Israel, send 1,000 men into battle.” 5So they chose 1,000 men from each tribe of Israel, a total of 12,000 men armed for battle. 6Then Moses sent them out, 1,000 men from each tribe, and Phinehas son of Eleazar the priest led them into battle. They carried along the holy objects of the sanctuary and the trumpets for sounding the charge. 7They attacked Midian as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. 8All five of the Midianite kings—Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba—died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. 9Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. 10They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. 11After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, 12they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho. 13Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14But Moses was furious with all the generals and captainsa who had returned from the battle. 15“Why have you let all the women live?” he demanded. 16“These are the very ones who followed Balaam’s advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD’s people. 17So kill all the boys and all the women who have had intercourse with a man. 18Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves. 19And all of you who have killed anyone or touched a dead body must stay outside the camp for seven days. You must purify yourselves and your captives on the third and seventh days. 20Purify all your clothing, too, and everything made of leather, goat hair, or wood.”

Craig stated it's OK because God created them and has the authority to kill them....
The children will be better off in heaven...

I believe we must all come to terms with the Old Testament God.
Although the attributes are the same, God, in the OT, does compromise His nature by ordering killings.

How did you come to terms with this problem?

It is the same God.
The destruction of hundreds or thousands is just a portent of the end of the world, where billions of evil doers will be cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Riven]

Common question.
Different answers.
Wm Lane Craig has a new one that is rather disturbing.

Persons are rather disturbed that God ordered all men, women and CHILDREN, to be killed

Numbers 31:

​

New Living Translation Par ▾ Conquest of the Midianites 1Then the LORD said to Moses, 2“On behalf of the people of Israel, take revenge on the Midianites for leading them into idolatry. After that, you will die and join your ancestors.” 3So Moses said to the people, “Choose some men, and arm them to fight the LORD’s war of revenge against Midian. 4From each tribe of Israel, send 1,000 men into battle.” 5So they chose 1,000 men from each tribe of Israel, a total of 12,000 men armed for battle. 6Then Moses sent them out, 1,000 men from each tribe, and Phinehas son of Eleazar the priest led them into battle. They carried along the holy objects of the sanctuary and the trumpets for sounding the charge. 7They attacked Midian as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. 8All five of the Midianite kings—Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba—died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. 9Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. 10They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. 11After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, 12they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho. 13Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14But Moses was furious with all the generals and captainsa who had returned from the battle. 15“Why have you let all the women live?” he demanded. 16“These are the very ones who followed Balaam’s advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD’s people. 17So kill all the boys and all the women who have had intercourse with a man. 18Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves. 19And all of you who have killed anyone or touched a dead body must stay outside the camp for seven days. You must purify yourselves and your captives on the third and seventh days. 20Purify all your clothing, too, and everything made of leather, goat hair, or wood.”

Craig stated it's OK because God created them and has the authority to kill them....
The children will be better off in heaven...

Because Craig doesn't want to have to deal with it. It's much easier to temporarily suspend the concept of morality altogether until he gets to the New Testament.

I believe we must all come to terms with the Old Testament God.
Although the attributes are the same, God, in the OT, does compromise His nature by ordering killings.

It's something we would expect from an ancient pagan war god, but not Jesus of Nazareth. The stark contrast between the two is hard to overlook.

How did you come to terms with this problem?


Riven

I haven't. I don't know if they're two different versions of God, two different gods entirely, or two different characters created by different authors in different time periods in human history. I dunno. :/

 

[GodsGrace]

Because Craig doesn't want to have to deal with it. It's much easier to temporarily suspend the concept of morality altogether until he gets to the New Testament.


It's something we would expect from an ancient pagan war god, but not Jesus of Nazareth. The stark contrast between the two is hard to overlook.


I haven't. I don't know if they're two different versions of God, two different gods entirely, or two different characters created by different authors in different time periods in human history. I dunno. :/

Stay tuned....

 

[GodsGrace]

Because Craig doesn't want to have to deal with it. It's much easier to temporarily suspend the concept of morality altogether until he gets to the New Testament.


It's something we would expect from an ancient pagan war god, but not Jesus of Nazareth. The stark contrast between the two is hard to overlook.


I haven't. I don't know if they're two different versions of God, two different gods entirely, or two different characters created by different authors in different time periods in human history. I dunno. :/

Theologians were rather shocked to hear His conclusion.

Why?
He breaks an age-old teaching.....

God cannot be separated from His nature.

Also, it's not your responsibility to either explain or understand this but of those that are believers of God almighty.

 

[electedbyhim]

The fact that God commanded the killing of entire nations in the Old Testament has been the subject of harsh criticism from opponents of Christianity for some time. That there was violence in the Old Testament is indisputable. The question is whether Old Testament violence is justifiable and condoned by God. In his bestselling book The God Delusion, atheist Richard Dawkins refers to the God of the Old Testament as “a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser.” Journalist Christopher Hitchens complains that the Old Testament contains a warrant for “indiscriminate massacre.” Other critics of Christianity have leveled similar charges, accusing Yahweh of “crimes against humanity.”

But are these criticisms valid? Is the God of the Old Testament a “moral monster” who arbitrarily commands genocide against innocent men, women, and children? Was His reaction to the sins of the Canaanites and the Amalekites a vicious form of “ethnic cleansing”? Or is it possible that God could have had morally sufficient reasons for ordering the destruction of these nations?

A basic knowledge of Canaanite culture reveals its inherent moral wickedness. The Canaanites were a brutal, aggressive people who engaged in bestiality, incest, and even child sacrifice. Deviant sexual acts were the norm. The Canaanites’ sin was so repellent that God said, “The land vomited out its inhabitants” (Leviticus 18:25). Even so, the destruction was directed more at the Canaanite religion (Deuteronomy 7:3–5; 12:2–3) than at the Canaanite people per se. The judgment was not ethnically motivated. Individual Canaanites, like Rahab in Jericho, could still find that mercy follows repentance (Joshua 2). God’s desire is that the wicked turn from their sin rather than die (Ezekiel 18:31–32; 33:11).

Besides dealing with national sins, God used the conquest of Canaan to create a religious/historical context in which He could eventually introduce the Messiah to the world. This Messiah would bring salvation not only to Israel, but also to Israel’s enemies, including Canaan (Psalm 87:4–6; Mark 7:25–30).

It must be remembered that God gave the Canaanite people more than sufficient time to repent of their evil ways—over 400 years! The book of Hebrews tells us that the Canaanites were “disobedient,” which implies moral culpability on their part (Hebrews 11:31). The Canaanites were aware of God’s power (Joshua 2:10–11; 9:9) and could have sought repentance. Except in rare instances, they continued their rebellion against God until the bitter end.

But didn’t God also command the Israelites to kill non-combatants? The biblical record is clear that He did. Here again, we must remember that, while it is true the Canaanite women did not fight, this in no way means they were innocent, as their seductive behavior in Numbers 25 indicates (Numbers 25:1–3). However, the question still remains: what about the children? This is not an easy question to answer, but we must keep several things in mind. First, no human person (including infants) is truly innocent. The Scripture teaches that we are all born in sin (Psalm 51:5; 58:3). This implies that all people are morally culpable for Adam’s sin in some way. Infants are just as condemned from sin as adults are.

Second, God is sovereign over all of life and can take it whenever He sees fit. God and God alone can give life, and God alone has the right to take it whenever He so chooses. In fact, He ultimately takes every person’s life at death. It is not our life to begin with but God’s. While it is wrong for us to take a life, except in instances of capital punishment, war, and self-defense, this does not mean that it is wrong for God to do so. We intuitively recognize this when we accuse some person or authority who takes human life as “playing God.” God is under no obligation to extend anyone’s life for even another day. How and when we die is completely up to Him.

Third, an argument could be made that it would have been cruel for God to take the lives of all the Canaanites except the infants and children. Without the protection and support of their parents, the infants and small children were likely to face death anyway due to starvation. The chances of survival for an orphan in the ancient Near East were not good.

Finally, the children of Canaan would have likely grown up sympathetic to the evil religions their parents had practiced. It was time for the culture of idolatry and perversion to end in Canaan, and God wanted to use Israel to end it. Also, the orphaned children of Canaan would naturally have grown up resentful of the Israelites. Likely, some would have later sought to avenge the “unjust” treatment of their parents and return Canaan to paganism.

It’s also worth considering the eternal state of those infants killed in Canaan. If God took them before the age of moral accountability, then they went straight to heaven (as we believe). Those children are in a far better place than if they had lived into adulthood as Canaanites.

Surely, the issue of God commanding violence in the Old Testament is difficult. However, we must remember that God sees things from an eternal perspective, and His ways are not our ways (Isaiah 55:8–9). The apostle Paul tells us that God is both kind and severe (Romans 11:22). While it is true that God’s holy character demands that sin be punished, His grace and mercy remain extended to those who are willing to repent and be saved. The Canaanite destruction provides us with a sober reminder that, while our God is gracious and merciful, He is also a God of holiness and wrath.

Gotquestions.com

 

[GodsGrace]

The fact that God commanded the killing of entire nations in the Old Testament has been the subject of harsh criticism from opponents of Christianity for some time. That there was violence in the Old Testament is indisputable. The question is whether Old Testament violence is justifiable and condoned by God. In his bestselling book The God Delusion, atheist Richard Dawkins refers to the God of the Old Testament as “a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser.” Journalist Christopher Hitchens complains that the Old Testament contains a warrant for “indiscriminate massacre.” Other critics of Christianity have leveled similar charges, accusing Yahweh of “crimes against humanity.”

But are these criticisms valid? Is the God of the Old Testament a “moral monster” who arbitrarily commands genocide against innocent men, women, and children? Was His reaction to the sins of the Canaanites and the Amalekites a vicious form of “ethnic cleansing”? Or is it possible that God could have had morally sufficient reasons for ordering the destruction of these nations?

A basic knowledge of Canaanite culture reveals its inherent moral wickedness. The Canaanites were a brutal, aggressive people who engaged in bestiality, incest, and even child sacrifice. Deviant sexual acts were the norm. The Canaanites’ sin was so repellent that God said, “The land vomited out its inhabitants” (Leviticus 18:25). Even so, the destruction was directed more at the Canaanite religion (Deuteronomy 7:3–5; 12:2–3) than at the Canaanite people per se. The judgment was not ethnically motivated. Individual Canaanites, like Rahab in Jericho, could still find that mercy follows repentance (Joshua 2). God’s desire is that the wicked turn from their sin rather than die (Ezekiel 18:31–32; 33:11).

Besides dealing with national sins, God used the conquest of Canaan to create a religious/historical context in which He could eventually introduce the Messiah to the world. This Messiah would bring salvation not only to Israel, but also to Israel’s enemies, including Canaan (Psalm 87:4–6; Mark 7:25–30).

It must be remembered that God gave the Canaanite people more than sufficient time to repent of their evil ways—over 400 years! The book of Hebrews tells us that the Canaanites were “disobedient,” which implies moral culpability on their part (Hebrews 11:31). The Canaanites were aware of God’s power (Joshua 2:10–11; 9:9) and could have sought repentance. Except in rare instances, they continued their rebellion against God until the bitter end.

But didn’t God also command the Israelites to kill non-combatants? The biblical record is clear that He did. Here again, we must remember that, while it is true the Canaanite women did not fight, this in no way means they were innocent, as their seductive behavior in Numbers 25 indicates (Numbers 25:1–3). However, the question still remains: what about the children? This is not an easy question to answer, but we must keep several things in mind. First, no human person (including infants) is truly innocent. The Scripture teaches that we are all born in sin (Psalm 51:5; 58:3). This implies that all people are morally culpable for Adam’s sin in some way. Infants are just as condemned from sin as adults are.

Second, God is sovereign over all of life and can take it whenever He sees fit. God and God alone can give life, and God alone has the right to take it whenever He so chooses. In fact, He ultimately takes every person’s life at death. It is not our life to begin with but God’s. While it is wrong for us to take a life, except in instances of capital punishment, war, and self-defense, this does not mean that it is wrong for God to do so. We intuitively recognize this when we accuse some person or authority who takes human life as “playing God.” God is under no obligation to extend anyone’s life for even another day. How and when we die is completely up to Him.

Third, an argument could be made that it would have been cruel for God to take the lives of all the Canaanites except the infants and children. Without the protection and support of their parents, the infants and small children were likely to face death anyway due to starvation. The chances of survival for an orphan in the ancient Near East were not good.

Finally, the children of Canaan would have likely grown up sympathetic to the evil religions their parents had practiced. It was time for the culture of idolatry and perversion to end in Canaan, and God wanted to use Israel to end it. Also, the orphaned children of Canaan would naturally have grown up resentful of the Israelites. Likely, some would have later sought to avenge the “unjust” treatment of their parents and return Canaan to paganism.

It’s also worth considering the eternal state of those infants killed in Canaan. If God took them before the age of moral accountability, then they went straight to heaven (as we believe). Those children are in a far better place than if they had lived into adulthood as Canaanites.

Surely, the issue of God commanding violence in the Old Testament is difficult. However, we must remember that God sees things from an eternal perspective, and His ways are not our ways (Isaiah 55:8–9). The apostle Paul tells us that God is both kind and severe (Romans 11:22). While it is true that God’s holy character demands that sin be punished, His grace and mercy remain extended to those who are willing to repent and be saved. The Canaanite destruction provides us with a sober reminder that, while our God is gracious and merciful, He is also a God of holiness and wrath.

Gotquestions.com

But what do YOU believe?

 

[LeviR]

It’s a very proud man indeed to think he has any righteousness of his own worth saving from death.

It just ain’t there. It’s worthless garbage.

 

[GodsGrace]

It’s a very proud man indeed to think he has any righteousness of his own worth saving from death.

It just ain’t there. It’s worthless garbage.

Are you saying anything we do for God is worthless garbage as far as God is concerned?

 

[LeviR]

Are you saying anything we do for God is worthless garbage as far as God is concerned?

Who is “we” ?

 

[GodsGrace]

Who is “we” ?

You, me, and anyone else that wants to serve God Almighty.

 

[LeviR]

You, me, and anyone else that wants to serve God Almighty.

Just like you dispose of trash, so does God.
People who claim it’s wrong of God to dispose of trash neither know themselves or God.
God picks through the trash pile to find what is worth saving. He saves those who believe the gospel and are faithful to it.
All the rest get torched with fire.

 

[Riven]

Theologians were rather shocked to hear His conclusion.

So was I, honestly.

Also, it's not your responsibility to either explain or understand this but of those that are believers of God almighty.

Perhaps not. But I liked to throw my hat in the ring from time to time.

 

[electedbyhim]

But what do YOU believe?

I believe the Lord is justified in whatever He does, that includes eliminating His enemies and those that pervert His gospel.


2 Peter 2:12 But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, blaspheming where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed,

 

[LeviR]

I believe the Lord is justified in whatever He does, that includes eliminating His enemies and those that pervert His gospel.


2 Peter 2:12 But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, blaspheming where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed,

Many out there speaking untruth, saying “Everyone is a child of God”
It’s that DEI warped mindset.

 

[jasonc]

It is a difficult thing . But when Jesus spoke of that judgememt of Israel in Ad70 there was no mercy given to the Jews who stayed in Israel and that included children who starved with them or were killed in the fire .

God let Israel act and warned them .they choose to resist Him .

The flood saved eight souls Noah wasn't told to kidnap the children of the souls that scored him to save them from the flood .nor was any angel sent to save those as such in sodom .

Man choice ,God used that to show us our sins will affect others .

Our sin put God himself to pay in agony for it .

An innocent man paid for my sin!

 

[GodsGrace]

Many out there speaking untruth, saying “Everyone is a child of God”
It’s that DEI warped mindset.

Everyone is a child of God.
God created every human being.
God does not create trash.

Not everyone is a son of God.
To be a son of God one must accept that God is their Father and behave accordingly.

Let these children come to me.
To enter into Heaven, one must like one of these children.

(how are children?)

 

[LeviR]

Everyone is a child of God.
God created every human being.
God does not create trash.

Not everyone is a son of God.
To be a son of God one must accept that God is their Father and behave accordingly.

Let these children come to me.
To enter into Heaven, one must like one of these children.

(how are children?)

Would you like to edit that?

 

[GodsGrace]

Would you like to edit that?

No. If I didn't mean it I would not have written it.

Perhaps you don't grasp what I mean?

I'll be happy to post some verse tomorrow.
ITMT, would care to state YOUR belief?

Explain how God makes trash?

Remember that man was made in God's image.