GOD OF THE OT / GOD OF THE NT.......IS IT THE SAME GOD?

[journeymanisnothing]

Common question.
Different answers.
Wm Lane Craig has a new one that is rather disturbing.

Persons are rather disturbed that God ordered all men, women and CHILDREN, to be killed

Numbers 31:

​

New Living Translation Par ▾ Conquest of the Midianites 1Then the LORD said to Moses, 2“On behalf of the people of Israel, take revenge on the Midianites for leading them into idolatry. After that, you will die and join your ancestors.” 3So Moses said to the people, “Choose some men, and arm them to fight the LORD’s war of revenge against Midian. 4From each tribe of Israel, send 1,000 men into battle.” 5So they chose 1,000 men from each tribe of Israel, a total of 12,000 men armed for battle. 6Then Moses sent them out, 1,000 men from each tribe, and Phinehas son of Eleazar the priest led them into battle. They carried along the holy objects of the sanctuary and the trumpets for sounding the charge. 7They attacked Midian as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. 8All five of the Midianite kings—Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba—died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. 9Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. 10They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. 11After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, 12they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho. 13Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14But Moses was furious with all the generals and captainsa who had returned from the battle. 15“Why have you let all the women live?” he demanded. 16“These are the very ones who followed Balaam’s advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD’s people. 17So kill all the boys and all the women who have had intercourse with a man. 18Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves. 19And all of you who have killed anyone or touched a dead body must stay outside the camp for seven days. You must purify yourselves and your captives on the third and seventh days. 20Purify all your clothing, too, and everything made of leather, goat hair, or wood.”

Craig stated it's OK because God created them and has the authority to kill them....
The children will be better off in heaven...

I believe we must all come to terms with the Old Testament God.
Although the attributes are the same, God, in the OT, does compromise His nature by ordering killings.

How did you come to terms with this problem?


Riven

What is being shown is how the seed of evildoers will be cut off. Like,

Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones. Psa.137:9 KJV

That's the children of the Lord vs. Babylons' children. (Or those who overcame evil by doing good vs. those who did evil.

 

[Prycejosh1987]

I also used to think they were different until explored how God treats people generally. Its the same God. For example God did nothing toward Jezebel Himself but allowed someone to rise up to execute judgement on His behalf. Jehu. Justice against others comes from people God raise up. Aware or unaware they understand that they have a purpose subconsciously.

 

[LeviR]

No. If I didn't mean it I would not have written it.

Perhaps you don't grasp what I mean?

I'll be happy to post some verse tomorrow.
ITMT, would care to state YOUR belief?

Explain how God makes trash?

Remember that man was made in God's image.

Where did you learn that everyone is a child of God?

And where did you learn that a child of God can become a son of God?

 

[journeymanisnothing]

I also used to think they were different until explored how God treats people generally. Its the same God. For example God did nothing toward Jezebel Himself but allowed someone to rise up to execute judgement on His behalf. Jehu. Justice against others comes from people God raise up. Aware or unaware they understand that they have a purpose subconsciously.

Yes. The law for instance is instituted by God to protect citizens. Yet our Savior endured the worst offense of law breaking against a person that could happen, namely murder. Pure contempt and hatred.

And when contemplating extreme examples of judgement in scripture it's important to remember that God is long suffering. He didn't have to endure the insults of sinners. He could have annihilated mankind with a wave of His hand,

"But how then should the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must be so?” Mt.26:54 ESV

That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Mt.12:17 KJV

And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust. Rom.15:12 KJV

We can testify to that!

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Where did you learn that everyone is a child of God?

This is simply the way God originally created angels and mankind.

And where did you learn that a child of God can become a son of God?

That is found here,

If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons Heb.12:7 KJV

Apparently fallen angels couldn't (or maybe wouldn't?) receive correction.
People think of Moses as a vengeful man, but

Now the man Moses was very meek, more than all men that were on the face of the earth. Num.12:3 RSV

So we know he took no pleasure in killing sinners, being a sinner himself. He repented with his knees knocking together as every earthly priest of God should.

Our High Priest sprinkled His Temple with His own blood then sat on the Throne of God. The ark under His Throne contains the law. His blood (His life : Gen.9:4) was shed on the law which condemns all men. He sits in mercy over the law, but He also said,

Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. Jn.5:45 KJV

 

[LeviR]

This is simply the way God originally created angels and mankind.

That is found here,

If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons Heb.12:7 KJV

Apparently fallen angels couldn't (or maybe wouldn't?) receive correction.
People think of Moses as a vengeful man, but

Now the man Moses was very meek, more than all men that were on the face of the earth. Num.12:3 RSV

So we know he took no pleasure in killing sinners, being a sinner himself. He repented with his knees knocking together as every earthly priest of God should.

Our High Priest sprinkled His Temple with His own blood then sat on the Throne of God. The ark under His Throne contains the law. His blood (His life : Gen.9:4) was shed on the law which condemns all men. He sits in mercy over the law, but He also said,

Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. Jn.5:45 KJV

Angels aren’t called children of God, and neither are unbelievers.

 

[JLB]

Common question.
Different answers.
Wm Lane Craig has a new one that is rather disturbing.

Persons are rather disturbed that God ordered all men, women and CHILDREN, to be killed

Numbers 31:

​

New Living Translation Par ▾ Conquest of the Midianites 1Then the LORD said to Moses, 2“On behalf of the people of Israel, take revenge on the Midianites for leading them into idolatry. After that, you will die and join your ancestors.” 3So Moses said to the people, “Choose some men, and arm them to fight the LORD’s war of revenge against Midian. 4From each tribe of Israel, send 1,000 men into battle.” 5So they chose 1,000 men from each tribe of Israel, a total of 12,000 men armed for battle. 6Then Moses sent them out, 1,000 men from each tribe, and Phinehas son of Eleazar the priest led them into battle. They carried along the holy objects of the sanctuary and the trumpets for sounding the charge. 7They attacked Midian as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. 8All five of the Midianite kings—Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba—died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. 9Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. 10They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. 11After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, 12they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho. 13Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14But Moses was furious with all the generals and captainsa who had returned from the battle. 15“Why have you let all the women live?” he demanded. 16“These are the very ones who followed Balaam’s advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD’s people. 17So kill all the boys and all the women who have had intercourse with a man. 18Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves. 19And all of you who have killed anyone or touched a dead body must stay outside the camp for seven days. You must purify yourselves and your captives on the third and seventh days. 20Purify all your clothing, too, and everything made of leather, goat hair, or wood.”

Craig stated it's OK because God created them and has the authority to kill them....
The children will be better off in heaven...

I believe we must all come to terms with the Old Testament God.
Although the attributes are the same, God, in the OT, does compromise His nature by ordering killings.

How did you come to terms with this problem?


Riven

Same God.


The same LORD God who said “thus says the LORD” out of the mouth of the prophets, became flesh and gave His life as a ransom for us who believe.


He is the same yesterday today and forever.

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
Hebrews 13:8

 

[Josef]

Common question.
Different answers.
Wm Lane Craig has a new one that is rather disturbing.

Persons are rather disturbed that God ordered all men, women and CHILDREN, to be killed

Numbers 31:

​

New Living Translation Par ▾ Conquest of the Midianites 1Then the LORD said to Moses, 2“On behalf of the people of Israel, take revenge on the Midianites for leading them into idolatry. After that, you will die and join your ancestors.” 3So Moses said to the people, “Choose some men, and arm them to fight the LORD’s war of revenge against Midian. 4From each tribe of Israel, send 1,000 men into battle.” 5So they chose 1,000 men from each tribe of Israel, a total of 12,000 men armed for battle. 6Then Moses sent them out, 1,000 men from each tribe, and Phinehas son of Eleazar the priest led them into battle. They carried along the holy objects of the sanctuary and the trumpets for sounding the charge. 7They attacked Midian as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. 8All five of the Midianite kings—Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba—died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. 9Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. 10They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. 11After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, 12they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho. 13Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14But Moses was furious with all the generals and captainsa who had returned from the battle. 15“Why have you let all the women live?” he demanded. 16“These are the very ones who followed Balaam’s advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD’s people. 17So kill all the boys and all the women who have had intercourse with a man. 18Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves. 19And all of you who have killed anyone or touched a dead body must stay outside the camp for seven days. You must purify yourselves and your captives on the third and seventh days. 20Purify all your clothing, too, and everything made of leather, goat hair, or wood.”

Craig stated it's OK because God created them and has the authority to kill them....
The children will be better off in heaven...

I believe we must all come to terms with the Old Testament God.
Although the attributes are the same, God, in the OT, does compromise His nature by ordering killings.

How did you come to terms with this problem?


Riven

Hey All,
God ordered the whole world destroyed in Genesis 6.
God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah in Genesis 19.
And this guy waited until getting to Numbers to be upset?
He is really late to the party.

Yes, this is God's creation.
He can manipulate it however He chooses.
We know He will not violate His nature in doing whatever He does. But yeah, in the end, God's the boss.
We have to deal with it cause that ain't gonna change.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[LeviR]

Hey All,
God ordered the whole world destroyed in Genesis 6.
God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah in Genesis 19.
And this guy waited until getting to Numbers to be upset?
He is really late to the party.

Yes, this is God's creation.
He can manipulate it however He chooses.
We know He will not violate His nature in doing whatever He does. But yeah, in the end, God's the boss.
We have to deal with it cause that ain't gonna change.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

Right. He had the whole world destroyed, not the whole earth.
He even had those people who were called sons or children of God killed.

 

[miamited]

Hi GodsGrace

I stand amazed that a christian teacher has to wait until the Israelites begin fighting against those in the promised land to show that God has killed people. I mean, come on, an entire globe of people, except for eight, were completely and utterly destroyed by nothing but the hand of God. Those who want to argue that God would not kill anyone look to the passages that you've posted about and say, "Well, they just didn't understand what God was asking of them." But there is no such excuse for all the millions of people who died in the flood. That was strictly and only by the hand of God that such a force as a worldwide flood could even come to be.

God's ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts. Just as is explained in the parable of the potter, does God not have the right to do with His creation what He will do?

Oh, sorry. I see that Josef has already made this point.

God bless,
Ted

 

[LeviR]

Hi GodsGrace

I stand amazed that a christian teacher has to wait until the Israelites begin fighting against those in the promised land to show that God has killed people. I mean, come on, an entire globe of people, except for eight, were completely and utterly destroyed by nothing but the hand of God. Those who want to argue that God would not kill anyone look to the passages that you've posted about and say, "Well, they just didn't understand what God was asking of them." But there is no such excuse for all the millions of people who died in the flood. That was strictly and only by the hand of God that such a force as a worldwide flood could even come to be.

God's ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts. Just as is explained in the parable of the potter, does God not have the right to do with His creation what He will do?

Oh, sorry. I see that Josef has already made this point.

God bless,
Ted

The result of humanism. Even saying everyone is a child of God is a result of humanism.

 

[miamited]

Hi GodsGrace

Further, I'm not in agreement with Mr. Craig's understanding that children somehow get a free pass into the eternal life with God. My understanding is that we are all sinners and until we come to the place in our lives where we hear the gospel and believe and live by it, we will not be saved from God's wrath. Does he tell us what age a child goes from wholly acceptable to God to a sinner in need of a Savior?

God bless,
Ted

 

[LeviR]

Hi GodsGrace

Further, I'm not in agreement with Mr. Craig's understanding that children somehow get a free pass into the eternal life with God. My understanding is that we are all sinners and until we come to the place in our lives where we hear the gospel and believe and live by it, we will not be saved from God's wrath. Does he tell us what age a child goes from wholly acceptable to God to a sinner in need of a Savior?

God bless,
Ted

He is a sinner from birth. It’s already in his nature, sin that is.
If sin dwells in his nature he is seen as a sinner by God.

 

[GodsGrace]

So was I, honestly.


Perhaps not. But I liked to throw my hat in the ring from time to time.

There are different ways to explain what happened in the OT.
It does present some problems.
Like God just killing everyone on earth and saving a few on Noah's Ark.
Didn't He know from the start that this would eventually be the end result?

So, think of it this way....
The OT was written 4,000 years ago.
The Bronze Age.

Is everything in the OT a command from God?
I leave you to ponder this.

What if it's not?


Does this mean it's all just a story and God is in trouble?


You see.....we all have to come to our own conclusion.
One we could live with.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi GodsGrace

Further, I'm not in agreement with Mr. Craig's understanding that children somehow get a free pass into the eternal life with God. My understanding is that we are all sinners and until we come to the place in our lives where we hear the gospel and believe and live by it, we will not be saved from God's wrath. Does he tell us what age a child goes from wholly acceptable to God to a sinner in need of a Savior?

God bless,
Ted

So if a 3 year old dies he goes to hell?

 

[follower]

Or Believe The Creator's Word.

 

[follower]

until we come to the place in our lives where we hear the gospel and believe and live by it, we will not be saved from God's wrath.

Jesus put it pure and true: "You must be born again".

No amount of discipline, religions, or even believing makes someone born again. THat is purely the Father's Determination/Choice/Will/ Purpose.

 

[follower]

How did you come to terms with this problem?

Simply like a little child innocent with a pure heart not doubting,not double minded, not trusting men, only trusting the Father in heaven , relying on Him, believing His Word....TRUTH,

 

[miamited]

So if a 3 year old dies he goes to hell?

Yes, all who die without faith in Jesus will be cast out of God's kingdom.

God bless,
Ted

 

[GodsGrace]

I believe the Lord is justified in whatever He does, that includes eliminating His enemies and those that pervert His gospel.


2 Peter 2:12 But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, blaspheming where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed,

Problem is....if God just does whatever He wants to do....
HE is perverting His own gospel.

God is love.
God loves His creation.

God can do whatever He wants to,,,but He cannot go against His own nature.
His commandment states DO NOT KILL.
So it's OK if God kills?
The very God that is teaching us not to?

Is God like the Pharisees when Jesus taught to:
DO AS THEY SAY
BUT NOT AS THEY DO
Matthew 23:3