God or money?

[john darling]

Hi all. Over on a couple different threads the topic of Jesus and money has come up consistently so it seems worth starting a thread dealing with just that one issue. To start things off, I'd like to post a short (12 minute) video which details the issue well, though I don't mind if you'd like to comment on the topic without watching the video. I'll paste a short explanation for the video below it, as well. Let me know what you think!

Most of us know that greed is a sin, but Jesus took it much further. He challenged our motivation for work. The New Testament says “covetousness is idolatry”. So the love of money and idols have much in common. God hates them both! Jesus says the ultimate choice is whether we are going to work for God, or work for the purpose of getting money.; we cannot serve God AND mammon at the same time. Which have you chosen: God or money? Maybe it's time to get a different employer!

 

[Nathan12]

The New Testament says “covetousness is idolatry”.

This is the key to understanding to God regards money.

Money as such is neutral. It can either be invested in the Kingdom of God (the salvation of souls, the edification of saints, the care of the destitute, humanitarian work, etc.) or it can be hoarded, or it can be wasted, or it can be used for self-aggrandizement and the obscene display of wealth.

Those who make wealth their idol or their god (as did the Rich Young Ruler or the Rich Man and Lazarus) are essentially covetous, since there is no limit to how much they would want for themselves with no concern for others. But then we have the examples of Abraham and Job, as well as Christians in the Bible, who applied their wealth for the work of God and Christ.

Money is a necessity to further the work of the Gospel. But the Prosperity Gospel is an abomination.

 

[GodsGrace]

If you notice...it's the LOVE of money that is the problem.
Money is not a problem. I'd say that NOT having money is a very big problem.

Do we serve money, or does money serve us?
Do we strive to make more and more?
Do we love it more than our families , more than God, more than humanity?

Money takes our attention away from God if we let it. This is why we cannot serve both God and mammon.

I know Christians that have money and the love and serve God.
And who are we to say who flaunts what they have?
A person could be driving an expensive car and we think they're being prideful, when in reality they could afford much more but believe the car they're driving is modest.

And surely, if they're Christian, they donate much more to the poor than many of us ever could.

We should not be quick to judge.
We serve God in spirit.
And we must all respond to Him individually.
If you feel guilty about having money...then that is fine for YOU.
Surely there's a reason why you're bothered by this.
But it does not have to be the same for each and every one of us.

 

[john darling]

Hi wondering. Thanks for the response.

Money takes our attention away from God if we let it.

What do you think are some examples of people allowing money to take their attention away from God?

 

[john darling]

Hi Nathan

Money is a necessity to further the work of the Gospel.

Can you imagine any situation in which one may not need to be dependent on money in order to teach others about Jesus?

 

[Nathan12]

Can you imagine any situation in which one may not need to be dependent on money in order to teach others about Jesus?

Not really. Money is needed for daily necessities. As Paul said "For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat." (2 Thess 3:10)

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi wondering. Thanks for the response.



What do you think are some examples of people allowing money to take their attention away from God?

Anything we love takes attention away from God.
For instance, if we love money, we'll spend a lot of time trying to figure out how to make more and more.

We'll spend more time in reading the Wall Street Journal instead of God's word or faith based books.

We'll spend more time in pyramid schemes than teaching kids our faith or helping out in ministries for the poor.

I don't mean to say that any of the above is WRONG....
Many read the WSJ and are not sinning or ignoring God...
but some are, and I'm speaking to these persons.

I guess it's all a heart matter, like Jesus taught.

 

[JohnDB]

This video is the classic bait and switch.
Fear mongering for the purpose of righteousness...

It's nothing but twisting and contorting scripture to fit an agenda. It's not letting scripture speak for itself.

A man who doesn't support his family is worse than an unbeliever.
Of course the Workman deserves his wages.
God's kids aren't seen begging for bread in the streets.

None of us is the top one percent...they are the ones with 82% of the wealth. Most of us on this forum have just enough to get by...wealthy is not a word I'd use for any of us.
That doesn't mean that we aren't generous to those in need. Those needing a hand up...and pay taxes for those who live for hand outs (the leeches of society)

So...just wondering where john darling gets his money from. Who pays his bills?
How does his internet get paid?
How did he purchase the equipment for accessing the internet?
What did he eat today and who bought his groceries?

 

[john darling]

Hi JDB. Thanks for watching the video.

Fear mongering for the purpose of righteousness...

I'm curious to know what fear you think the video is promoting.

 

[JohnDB]

Hi JDB. Thanks for watching the video.



I'm curious to know what fear you think the video is promoting.

Supporting the Antichrist
Sinning against God
Losing your salvation by holding a job
Others will think you are greedy
You aren't doing enough for God
And the list can continue.

How about answering the questions I posed?

 

[Nathan12]

So...just wondering where @john darling gets his money from. Who pays his bills?

Peter Pan could be a possible source.

 

[john darling]

Supporting the Antichrist

Where does this happen in the video?

 

[JohnDB]

Where does this happen in the video?

So you aren't going to tell us how you can afford to eat or access the internet?

 

[john darling]

So you aren't going to tell us how you can afford to eat or access the internet?

Hi JohnDB. I'd rather the topic not be about me. Jesus is the cornerstone and my understanding of this issue is based on his teachings. Why do you think a video about working for love vs working for money supports the anti-christ?

 

[JohnDB]

Hi JohnDB. I'd rather the topic not be about me. Jesus is the cornerstone and my understanding of this issue is based on his teachings. Why do you think a video about working for love vs working for money supports the anti-christ?

But you are the one claiming we are sinning.
You are claiming a superior position...
Sounds a lot like "do as I say not as I do"

 

[john darling]

but you are the one claiming we are sinning.
You are claiming a superior position...
Sounds a lot like "do as I say not as I do"

Hi JDB. I make no claims about you. However, the more you post about it the more I am reminded of the question, if you throw a stick into a pack of dogs, how do you know which one you've hit?

 

[JohnDB]

Hi JDB. I make no claims about you. However, the more you post about it the more I am reminded of the question, if you throw a stick into a pack of dogs, how do you know which one you've hit?

Well I have a job solely to make money. I don't do it for love or anything else but money... and I make sure that I get top dollar for it.
Your video claims I'm supporting the Antichrist by doing so.

So you MUST have a way to pay for the things you do (like accessing the internet, eating, food, and shelter) and you can either come clean or you are putting restrictions on everyone else but yourself with what you are promoting.

Man was created to work (amongst other things) and women to help man in his endeavors.

You are claiming that this isn't true because Jesus taught something different.

So..."You gotta lotta splainin to do".

 

[WIP]

We have a couple choices.

1. One option is to grow all of our own food, design and build/create all of our own tools including modes of transportation which could include walking of course, secure all of our own forms of heating and cooking and clothing and shelter, provide all of our own medical and dental and optical care, and so on. Most of us do not have the knowledge, training, or resources to be able to do that on our own.
2. Provide our skills to others in exchange for those things we are unable to do on our own. In other words, barter skill for skill. This requires quite a few connections in order to facilitate the necessary exchanges to satisfy all our basic needs.
3. Provide our skills to others in exchange for some form of legally recognized tender in order to be able to exchange the tender for those things we are unable to do on our own. Hey wait! That's called, getting a job that pays a monetary wage.

Unfortunately, in our society today, exchanging or bartering skills or services for most things is not valuable in most markets. There are some minor exchanges that are done but usually it is between good friends and rarely disputed. Imagine trying to pay your electric bill, home heating bill, taxes, etc. by offering to do a service in exchange.

About as close as you can get to option 1 is found in my neighborhood Amish community. But even though they grow virtually all of their own food, rely on beasts of burden, barter with each other all the time, do not use electricity, do not own a powered vehicle, and so forth, they still find it necessary to offer products or services in exchange for cash so they can pay their taxes, obtain medical care, and purchase items they are unable to secure otherwise.

 

[john darling]

Imagine trying to pay your electric bill, home heating bill, taxes, etc. by offering to do a service in exchange.

I think imagination needs to be an important part of this discussion. For example, consider Nathan12's earlier comments. He cannot imagine a situation in which Jesus can be preached without a reliance on money. His dependence on money is so ingrained that he likens a system where we work for love as some kind of peter pan fantasy (i.e. something ridiculous and unrealistic).

It is because we have grown up in a system where demanding payment is normal that we find it ridiculous to imagine an alternative where people work for one another because they love one another. This is why the born again message is so important; we are meant to break out of this thinking that service to money is the only way to survive.

The only reason it sounds ridiculous to live by faith in love vs a paycheck is because we humans have made it that way. Money doesn't make food grow. It doesn't make the sun shine or the rain fall. It doesn't Build houses or sew clothing. It only has as much importance as we choose to give it.

This is a teaching about motivation; why we do what we do? Consider JohnDB's comments. He says the only reason he works is to get money and he strives for the most money he can get while he's at it. Presumably JohnDB performs work which is useful in some way, but to his thinking he does not perform this work because it is useful to others. He performs this work because he wants top dollar. If someone does not pay him for his work, then he has no incentive to help that person despite whatever genuine need they may have. It may be that JohnDB does, at times, help those in need without demanding payment, but even then those would be the exceptions rather than the rule.

Motivation is all important to God when it comes to how/why we behave. We should work hard to promote the kingdom of Heaven whether that work be preaching or something physically practical. If we work according to the values of this world, where we only help one another if we get paid for it, then we are not demonstrating the values of Heaven. Our work will not be a witness to the world that Jesus really is a better way.

 

[JohnDB]

I think imagination needs to be an important part of this discussion. For example, consider Nathan12's earlier comments. He cannot imagine a situation in which Jesus can be preached without a reliance on money. His dependence on money is so ingrained that he likens a system where we work for love as some kind of peter pan fantasy (i.e. something ridiculous and unrealistic).

It is because we have grown up in a system where demanding payment is normal that we find it ridiculous to imagine an alternative where people work for one another because they love one another. This is why the born again message is so important; we are meant to break out of this thinking that service to money is the only way to survive.

The only reason it sounds ridiculous to live by faith in love vs a paycheck is because we humans have made it that way. Money doesn't make food grow. It doesn't make the sun shine or the rain fall. It doesn't Build houses or sew clothing. It only has as much importance as we choose to give it.

This is a teaching about motivation; why we do what we do? Consider JohnDB's comments. He says the only reason he works is to get money and he strives for the most money he can get while he's at it. Presumably JohnDB performs work which is useful in some way, but to his thinking he does not perform this work because it is useful to others. He performs this work because he wants top dollar. If someone does not pay him for his work, then he has no incentive to help that person despite whatever genuine need they may have. It may be that JohnDB does, at times, help those in need without demanding payment, but even then those would be the exceptions rather than the rule.

Motivation is all important to God when it comes to how/why we behave. We should work hard to promote the kingdom of Heaven whether that work be preaching or something physically practical. If we work according to the values of this world, where we only help one another if we get paid for it, then we are not demonstrating the values of Heaven. Our work will not be a witness to the world that Jesus really is a better way.

Well maybe you can afford to live in fantasy land...but unless I pay the rent/mortgage on the first I'll be living under a bridge.

Unless I want to wear flowers and grass...I have to wear clothes.
And my family needs things...which I provide by earning money.

I'll get rest when I'm dead and in heaven, until then I got work for money to do.