God Owes You Nothing!

[Rodger]

One of the greatest and false teachings in the Christian faith today is that......"God Owes You"!

The central idea of what I am saying has many names.....“health and wealth gospel” or “name it and claim it” as well as Word of Faith" theology.

Since I first saw this happening, I have wondered who so many people would fall such a ridiculous teaching.

Then the more I worked at it and the more I learned, I began to realize that this false teaching has its roots in Eastern philosophies, metaphysical traditions, and the emerging fields of psychology and self-help. Some will say that is New Age philosophy and IMHO that is correct. While not explicitly Christian, it was influenced by Christian ideas as a basis of understanding and grows out of the belief that the mind has the power to heal the body and attract prosperity.

There are many now who teach this heresy, but when you go backwards to who was the one who 1st brought it to prominence was Oral Roberts. He learned the power of TV and used it wisely.

While Roberts was one of the first to combine New Thought principles with faith healing, the most prominent evangelist of the prosperity gospel—and the father of the Word of Faith movement—was Kenneth E. Hagin.

These two men articulated the seed-faith concept using a threefold model:
(1) plant a seed: give something as your seed to a ministry;
(2) expect a miracle: have faith your act of giving will trigger divine intervention;
(3) harvest the miracle: receive the divine blessings in a manifold manner, often expected to be in material or financial forms.

Now a little trivia. A man by the name of Kenneth Copeland was Oral Roberts "Chauffer and pilot of his air plane".

It is from that trinity that we see all the others who have followed and bought into this heresy, not to propagate the gospel or to save souls.......but to become rich at the expense of those who do not actually read the bible and are easily manipulated.

Again.....one has to wonder WHY do people fall this stuff?

I may be wrong, but I may be right. IMHO it comes down to Desperation.

When you or someone close to you is dying or suffering, it’s natural to want to help in whatever way we can. Or, when finances become so strapped that you or a person close to you is in anguish, there is a desire to alleviate the suffering. So if a televangelist comes on television promising that God wants to heal and financially bless individuals, but God requires a gift first—care of the ministry of course; desperate people begin to grasp at straws and take desperate measures.

 

[Hopeful 2]

One of the greatest and false teachings in the Christian faith today is that......"God Owes You"!

The central idea of what I am saying has many names.....“health and wealth gospel” or “name it and claim it” as well as Word of Faith" theology.

Since I first saw this happening, I have wondered who so many people would fall such a ridiculous teaching.

Then the more I worked at it and the more I learned, I began to realize that this false teaching has its roots in Eastern philosophies, metaphysical traditions, and the emerging fields of psychology and self-help. Some will say that is New Age philosophy and IMHO that is correct. While not explicitly Christian, it was influenced by Christian ideas as a basis of understanding and grows out of the belief that the mind has the power to heal the body and attract prosperity.

There are many now who teach this heresy, but when you go backwards to who was the one who 1st brought it to prominence was Oral Roberts. He learned the power of TV and used it wisely.

While Roberts was one of the first to combine New Thought principles with faith healing, the most prominent evangelist of the prosperity gospel—and the father of the Word of Faith movement—was Kenneth E. Hagin.

These two men articulated the seed-faith concept using a threefold model:
(1) plant a seed: give something as your seed to a ministry;
(2) expect a miracle: have faith your act of giving will trigger divine intervention;
(3) harvest the miracle: receive the divine blessings in a manifold manner, often expected to be in material or financial forms.

Now a little trivia. A man by the name of Kenneth Copeland was Oral Roberts "Chauffer and pilot of his air plane".

It is from that trinity that we see all the others who have followed and bought into this heresy, not to propagate the gospel or to save souls.......but to become rich at the expense of those who do not actually read the bible and are easily manipulated.

Again.....one has to wonder WHY do people fall this stuff?

I may be wrong, but I may be right. IMHO it comes down to Desperation.

When you or someone close to you is dying or suffering, it’s natural to want to help in whatever way we can. Or, when finances become so strapped that you or a person close to you is in anguish, there is a desire to alleviate the suffering. So if a televangelist comes on television promising that God wants to heal and financially bless individuals, but God requires a gift first—care of the ministry of course; desperate people begin to grasp at straws and take desperate measures.

The OSAS doctrine is the epitome of being "owed" something.

 

[Rodger]

The OSAS doctrine is the epitome of being "owed" something.

No sir it is not in any way whatsoever.

God does not owe us salvation and we did not pay for it. It was a free gift which we accepted Jesus by faith.

Romans 4:4-5
"Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,".

A born-again believer does NOT convert to the Mormon faith or become an atheist. When a man claims that he “used to be a Christian,” but now has become a Jehovah's Witness, he's a liar. He never was a Christian to begin with. He may have once had the philosophy of Christianity (as the Greeks), or the organization of Christianity (as the Roman Church), or even partook of a culture of Christianity (as exists throughout Europe); but he never had genuine Christianity, which is a “new birth” by faith in Jesus Christ alone.

You don't trust Christ one day and then forsake him the next, it doesn't work that way. A child of God will always be a child of God. If you don't have Jesus Christ today, it is ONLY because you never really trusted Him at all.

 

[Hopeful 2]

No sir it is not in any way whatsoever.

The folk who that say they are already saved surmise that God owes them salvation because they said they believe, or some other thing.
So God owes them eternal life regardless of what there life looks like.

God does not owe us salvation and we did not pay for it. It was a free gift which we accepted Jesus by faith.

We have our part to play.

Romans 4:4-5
"Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,".

Right, the works of the Law will not produce salvation.

A born-again believer does NOT convert to the Mormon faith or become an atheist. When a man claims that he “used to be a Christian,” but now has become a Jehovah's Witness, he's a liar. He never was a Christian to begin with. He may have once had the philosophy of Christianity (as the Greeks), or the organization of Christianity (as the Roman Church), or even partook of a culture of Christianity (as exists throughout Europe); but he never had genuine Christianity, which is a “new birth” by faith in Jesus Christ alone.

That I can agree with.

You don't trust Christ one day and then forsake him the next, it doesn't work that way. A child of God will always be a child of God. If you don't have Jesus Christ today, it is ONLY because you never really trusted Him at all.

True; and the manifestation of that lack of trust, is sin.

 

[Rodger]

The folk who that say they are already saved surmise that God owes them salvation because they said they believe, or some other thing.
So God owes them eternal life regardless of what there life looks like.

We have our part to play.

Right, the works of the Law will not produce salvation.

That I can agree with.

True; and the manifestation of that lack of trust, is sin.

Incorrect teaching.
Everyone has eternal life. Where we spend it is our choice or lack thereof but it not something that we are owed.

The only part we play in salvation is....."Yes Lord".

 

[Free]

The OSAS doctrine is the epitome of being "owed" something.

No, not at all. It’s the antithesis of being “owed” something. It’s all God’s work and there is not a thing you can do to merit it or keep it.

 

[Rodger]

No, not at all. It’s the antithesis of being “owed” something. It’s all God’s work and there is not a thing you can do to merit it or keep it.

100% Biblically correct!

 

[Hopeful 2]

Incorrect teaching.
Everyone has eternal life. Where we spend it is our choice or lack thereof but it not something that we are owed.

Being owed salvation, is the construct of the OSAS folks.
They did X or Y, and so God owes them salvation.

The only part we play in salvation is....."Yes Lord".

Then it is a correct teaching and we do have our part to do for our salvation.
BTW, that "Yes Lord" will occur thousands of times before our end.

 

[Hopeful 2]

No, not at all. It’s the antithesis of being “owed” something. It’s all God’s work and there is not a thing you can do to merit it or keep it.

Isn't that POV the epitome of "being owed" ?
Do X or Y and God owes you salvation ?
For the Calvinists, God has owed them salvation from the beginning of eternity.

 

[Free]

Isn't that POV the epitome of "being owed" ?

No, it's the antithesis of "being owed."

Do X or Y and God owes you salvation ?

That is "being owed," but that is the opposite of OSAS, which is that there is nothing one can do to be saved or stay saved. God saves us and keeps us saved, all to his glory.

Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
...
Rom 8:38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers,
Rom 8:39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. (ESV)

For the Calvinists, God has owed them salvation from the beginning of eternity.

Not for any that I know of. God elects to salvation and it is his work from start to finish; it is a free gift, as Paul says. Adding a single work, so that salvation is what is due, is a false gospel.

 

[Hopeful 2]

No, it's the antithesis of "being owed."

Don't the OSASers obey some command from Jesus or His apostles to be "saved".
They must at least believe they don't have to do anything, to please God.
Ergo, their belief is a work ! (though not of the Law)
Do this, and get that.

That is "being owed," but that is the opposite of OSAS, which is that there is nothing one can do to be saved or stay saved. God saves us and keeps us saved, all to his glory.

I guess then, that there are a bunch of folks out there walking around that don't even know they were saved all along !

Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

As sinners have not conformed to the image of His Son, they are also not saved...right ?

Rom 8:38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers,
Rom 8:39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. (ESV)

The "conformed" have lot to look forward to !
The sinners/unconformed, not so much

Not for any that I know of. God elects to salvation and it is his work from start to finish; it is a free gift, as Paul says. Adding a single work, so that salvation is what is due, is a false gospel.

If God decreed someone's salvation, then He owes it to them from hence forth.

 

[Free]

Don't the OSASers obey some command from Jesus or His apostles to be "saved".

Repent and believe the gospel. It’s all a work of God.

They must at least believe they don't have to do anything, to please God.
Ergo, their belief is a work ! (though not of the Law)
Do this, and get that.

No. It’s all a work of God.

I guess then, that there are a bunch of folks out there walking around that don't even know they were saved all along !

No, that has nothing to do with what I’ve said.

As sinners have not conformed to the image of His Son, they are also not saved...right ?

The "conformed" have lot to look forward to !
The sinners/unconformed, not so much

Keep your ungodly heresy out of this, please.

If God decreed someone's salvation, then He owes it to them from hence forth.

No. You play too fast and lose with definitions.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Repent and believe the gospel. It’s all a work of God.

Done by obedient men.

No. It’s all a work of God.

Done by obedient men.

No, that has nothing to do with what I’ve said.

If the conversion is forced, aren't they converted before their obedience kicks in ?

Keep your ungodly heresy out of this, please.

By that answer, I must believe you think those NOT conformed to the Son will be saved.

No. You play too fast and lose with definitions.

If He says it must be so, then He has to perform that claim.
If He says it ahead of time, He owes it to them.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

“Health and wealth gospel” has mistaken salvation for blessing, which includes all the earthly benefits such as health and wealth. Salvation is given, blessing is EARNED, it demands work. You don't work, you bury your talent in the ground, you get nothing.

 

[Free]

Done by obedient men.

Done by obedient men.

If the conversion is forced, aren't they converted before their obedience kicks in ?

By that answer, I must believe you think those NOT conformed to the Son will be saved.

If He says it must be so, then He has to perform that claim.
If He says it ahead of time, He owes it to them.

You seem to be intent on misrepresenting the OSAS position and not even trying to understand, so I’m going to step out.

 

[Rodger]

on, is the construct of the OSAS folks.
They did X or Y, and so God owes them salvation.

Then it is a correct teaching and we do have our part to do for our salvation.
BTW, that "Yes Lord" will occur thousands of times before our end.

You are incorrect again my friend.
May I say to you that we do nothing to be saved. Salvation is completely God driven.

When I said that what we do is say....."Yes Lord", most people understood that as simply an act of obedience and had nothing to do with what God has already decided.

Now by your responce you make it clear to everyone reading this that you do not understand the doctrine of Freedom of Choice. IT is also clear that you do not understand Predestination and what being saved actually means.

You are also saying to everyone that you do understand Pentecostal teaching which is what you are promoting at the expense of Biblical truth.

You also are showing us that you work very hard at misconstruing things said so as to support your position.

On a personal note, I have no earthly idea how anyone can read Romans 8:38-39.......and then deny OSAS......
"For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord".

It must be a very sad and depressing life to live in the shadow of believing that on any day at any time I can go from heaven to hell in a heartbeat.

 

[Rodger]

Isn't that POV the epitome of "being owed" ?
Do X or Y and God owes you salvation ?
For the Calvinists, God has owed them salvation from the beginning of eternity.

Your comments tell us that you really should be doing more Bible study than posting in forums.
The time spent here on this site could be better spent reading and studying the Bible to show yourself approved by God, because really.....you are all over the place.

What you just posted tells me that you do not understand Predestination neither Freedom of Choice, and the Soverntry of God.

That being the clear and obvious problem, allow me to say to you that the passages in the Bible that address the relationship of God’s sovereignty to human choice do not send us to door number 1 or door number 2, but to a third door.

One thing we learn about God, if He predestined those He foreknew, is that God is sovereign; predestination is a theological fact. But we also learn in the Scriptures that people are accountable for what they choose.

If you will recall in Luke 10:42, Mary is commended for her choice, and Moses is commended for his choice in Hebrews 11:24-25. Paul made a choice about whom he would serve with in Acts 15:40.

The Scriptures are full of people who make choices; however at the same time, they are also full of statements affirming that God’s will trumps human will for example, Romans 9:16.

Now, may I suggest to you that One theological option is that God is sovereign, and people really don’t have choice.

Another suggests that people choose; thus, God can’t exercise His sovereignty over human choice.

But.......there just maybe a third option which is simply that both are true—God is completely in control, and humanity makes choices and is completely accountable for those choices.

The Bible does not present these as irreconcilable truths as theological traditions sometimes do.

So we now know that and have learned that, if God predestined those He foreknew, He both knows His creation before it exists and He determines important things about His creation. If God is great enough to be the Creator of all, then He is not stumped by the mutual existence of His sovereignty and human volition, choice, and responsibility and absolutely none of that means GOD OWES HUMANS NOTHING INCLUDING SALVATION.

 

[for_his_glory]

If it wasn't for God's mercy and grace none of us would be here. It's sad to think in Noah's day that he was the only one who found favor in the Lord. What God looks for is His righteousness found in us and that He already gave warning to those things within this world that will confuse and confound those who lack Spiritual knowledge. Quit being a Pastor follower and get into the word for yourself by allowing the Holy Spirit teach you.

Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Hosea 4:7 As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.

Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

 

[Hopeful 2]

You are incorrect again my friend.
May I say to you that we do nothing to be saved. Salvation is completely God driven.

When I said that what we do is say....."Yes Lord", most people understood that as simply an act of obedience and had nothing to do with what God has already decided.

Now by your responce you make it clear to everyone reading this that you do not understand the doctrine of Freedom of Choice. IT is also clear that you do not understand Predestination and what being saved actually means.

You are also saying to everyone that you do understand Pentecostal teaching which is what you are promoting at the expense of Biblical truth.

You also are showing us that you work very hard at misconstruing things said so as to support your position.

On a personal note, I have no earthly idea how anyone can read Romans 8:38-39.......and then deny OSAS......
"For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord".

It must be a very sad and depressing life to live in the shadow of believing that on any day at any time I can go from heaven to hell in a heartbeat.

I do not believe that forced conversions are real conversions.
Men don't go from heaven to hell.
They go from earth to heaven OR hell, depending on how they lived.
Has your forced conversion allowed you to live without sinning ?
Wouldn't that be the proof that it was God's work ?
God's seed does not bear liars, thieves, or adulterers.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Your comments tell us that you really should be doing more Bible study than posting in forums.
The time spent here on this site could be better spent reading and studying the Bible to show yourself approved by God, because really.....you are all over the place.

What you just posted tells me that you do not understand Predestination neither Freedom of Choice, and the Soverntry of God.

That being the clear and obvious problem, allow me to say to you that the passages in the Bible that address the relationship of God’s sovereignty to human choice do not send us to door number 1 or door number 2, but to a third door.

One thing we learn about God, if He predestined those He foreknew, is that God is sovereign; predestination is a theological fact. But we also learn in the Scriptures that people are accountable for what they choose.

If you will recall in Luke 10:42, Mary is commended for her choice, and Moses is commended for his choice in Hebrews 11:24-25. Paul made a choice about whom he would serve with in Acts 15:40.

The Scriptures are full of people who make choices; however at the same time, they are also full of statements affirming that God’s will trumps human will for example, Romans 9:16.

Now, may I suggest to you that One theological option is that God is sovereign, and people really don’t have choice.

Another suggests that people choose; thus, God can’t exercise His sovereignty over human choice.

But.......there just maybe a third option which is simply that both are true—God is completely in control, and humanity makes choices and is completely accountable for those choices.

The Bible does not present these as irreconcilable truths as theological traditions sometimes do.

So we now know that and have learned that, if God predestined those He foreknew, He both knows His creation before it exists and He determines important things about His creation. If God is great enough to be the Creator of all, then He is not stumped by the mutual existence of His sovereignty and human volition, choice, and responsibility and absolutely none of that means GOD OWES HUMANS NOTHING INCLUDING SALVATION.

God is sovereign, but men have the choice of obeying or disobeying Him.
As God has always known who would love, or hate Him, He has no need to force anyone to do against their will.
If He knows that the Cardinals will win the world series this year, He doesn't need to "make it happen".