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God the Father created Jesus

G

gingercat

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Prov 8:22-31
22 "The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;

23 I was appointed from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.

24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;

25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,

26 before he made the earth or its fields
or any of the dust of the world.

27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,

28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,

29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.

30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,

31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.

Those verses are all about Jesus!
 
Amazing that there will be those that will refute this, the Word of God, and say that Jesus IS God.

Folks Jesus is called the Son because He was created BY God, The Father. Even before He walked among us, He was STILL the Son. Yet there are those that will deny the very Word itself in order to make Christ, God Himself.

Beware of the leaven. And always remember what 'itching ears' is refereing to. I have offered it already, but feel compelled to offer it again. The Bible plainly states that there would come a time when those that followed God through His Son would be 'cast out' of the synagogues, and be murdered, and that those that do such 'believe' that what they do is the will of God. But, BUT these do so because they KNOW NEITHER THE FATHER OR THE SON.

I can think of NO other group of people that would fit into this category as well as those that created 'trinity'. And if, IF 'trinity' is WRONG folks, that would indicate that those that 'created' it, knew NEITHER THE FATHER OR THE SON. For if 'trinity' is wrong, those that worship Christ AS God have NOT ONE, BUT TWO GODS. Since there is ONLY ONE GOD, there is NO way that there can be TWO. Therefore, if 'trinity' is wrong, the 'Christ' worshiped by it is nothing more than an idol that is NOT the 'true' Son, but something created by the minds and hands of men.

Now, as I have pointed out on previous threads dealing with 'trinity', there are those of the churches that will INSIST that I accept 'trinity'. Most would probably ask me to leave if I refused and offered others my understanding of it's nature. And, anyone that would judge my salvation and offer that I am lost and NOT born again for denying this 'trinity', has done little short of murder. For to offer that I am not saved is a 'death sentence'.

Now, for all those that believe Jesus IS God, show me ONE piece of scripture that states that I MUST believe that Jesus IS GOD or I will NOT receive salvation. Just ONE piece of scripture. Now, how in the world could a single one of you justify saying that I must if the Word itself says NOTHING of the sort? Hard one to answer I bet.

Jesus IS the Son of God. Regardless of your 'trinity' this IS stated in the Bible OVER AND OVER AGAIN. There is ONLY ONE GOD. This too is stated OVER AND OVER AGAIN. No one has EVER seen God, This is stated in the Word. And you can call the Holy Spirit a 'person' if you desire, but the name speaks for itself, SPIRIT.

'Trinity', just Catholic baggage and should be treated as such. Anyone that doesn't understand this simply hasn't done the research, and has listened to what MAN teaches rather than the Word. For in the Word, there IS NO 'TRINITY'. NOTHING of the sort. Godhead 'should' be good enough for those that choose to head the Word. And a complete understanding of Godhead is NOT a necessity to salvation. But, if one considers both to be the same and they are NOT, imagine how hard it would be to develope a relationship with someone that you didn't recognize. Like mistaking Bill for Fred, and mistaking Fred, for bill. How could you possibly KNOW either one if you could mistake them for each other?
 
Was Jesus Created First?
by Wayne Jackson
Christian Courier: Questions
Tuesday, May 20, 2003

In his letter to the Colossians, Paul refers to Christ as “the firstborn of all creation.†Does this phrase suggest that Jesus was a “created†being? The “Jehovah’s Witnesses†so allege, but what is the truth of the matter? Study this intriguing question with us.

“A friend, who is a Jehovah’s Witness, says that Jesus Christ was the first creature made by God the Father. He cites Colossians 1:15, where Jesus is said to be the ‘firstborn of all creation’ as proof. Can you comment on this?â€Â

The Watchtower dogma, that Jesus was the first being created by the Father and, therefore, he is not eternal in his nature, is a totally false teaching. The following points indisputably refute the “Witness†claim.

1. The Greek word for “firstborn†is prototokos, a term with roots in the Old Testament. When the word is used literally, it can denote the first that comes from the womb, whether of man or beast (cf. Ex. 13:2). Frequently, however, “firstborn†is an expression of rank, or preeminence, and the original linguistic components (“first†and “bornâ€Â) “no longer play any role in the meaning (e.g., Ex. 4:22)†(Verbrugee, p. 1114).

A clear example of this is seen in Jeremiah 31:9, where “Ephraim†(a symbol for the kingdom of Israel) is called the Lord’s “firstborn,†although literally Manasseh, Ephraim’s older brother, was the “firstborn†(Gen. 48:14). In this context “firstborn†is employed as a designation for primacy (cf. Gen. 48:19).

The renowned Hebraist, Adam Clarke, observed that the Israelite people even referred to Jehovah as becoro sheloam, “the firstborn of all the world,†or of “all creation,†which expression signified the Lord’s role as the creator of all things (Vol. IV, p. 516).

In Psalm 89, God said regarding David (though ultimately the reference is to David’s illustrious offspring; see Kirkpatrick, p. 538), “Also I will make him my firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth†(v. 27; cf. Rev. 1:5). The fact that this kingly One is to be appointed (future tense) as a “firstborn†is conclusive evidence that a point of origin is not in view.

2. The world’s ripest scholars of New Testament Greek are virtually unanimous in their opposition to the claims of the Watchtower Society. “Firstborn†(Col. 1:15) does not indicate the origin of the Second Person of the Godhead.

There is a precise Greek word to indicate the “first†of a particular created order; it is the term proto-ktistos. This word is defined by classical scholars Liddell & Scott as meaning “founded or created first†(p. 1400). This is not the term employed by Paul to depict Christ in the Colossian context, though the apostle had a term available should he have wanted to make that point. That he did not is significant.

Balz & Schneider observe that prototokos in Colossians 1:15 emphasizes a “superiority of essence,†and it does not suggest that Christ is “a part of the creation himself, but [he] stands rather in a unique relationship to God, the ‘invisible’†(Vol. 3, p. 190).

W. Michaelis, in the Kittel/Friedrich dictionary, notes that the “for†clause (that begins verse 16) provides the explanation for the term “firstborn,†namely that “all things owe their creation to Christ’s mediation.†He insists that the point “is not that Christ is the first creatureâ€Â; rather, the thought being emphasized is “Christ’s supremacy over creation†(Bromiley, p. 968).

Moreover, since the apostle affirms that Jesus created all things, it would follow logically that if he himself were a created being, he must have made himself! Recognizing this necessary, though absurd, conclusion, the Watchtower Society presumptively inserted the term “other†into the New World Translation at verse 16; “. . . because by means of him all [other] things were created. . . †Their use of brackets reveals an awareness that there is no textual basis for the insertion.

3. Finally, the use of “firstborn†in verse 18 sheds light on the foregoing text. The Savior is described as “the firstborn from the dead†(cf. Rev. 1:5). Jesus was not the “firstborn from the dead†as a consequence of being the first one ever to be raised from the dead. There were resurrections from death both in the Old Testament (cf. 1 Kgs. 17:8-24), and during the personal ministry of the Lord (cf. Jn. 11:17ff).

Christ is “firstborn from the dead†in that he demonstrated his power over the gve. He was even instrumental in effecting his own resurrection (Jn. 2:19). Further, unlike others, who were resurrected, Jesus was raised to die “no more†(Rom. 6:9). He is the ever-living one who now has the “keys†over both death and Hades (Rev. 1:18).

There is simply no justification for the notion that the pre-incarnate Word (Jn. 1:1,14) was a created being. This is but one of the numerous errors that afflict the Watchtower movement.
http://www.christiancourier.com/questio ... estion.htm
 
I think that scripture states that Christ was the 'firstborn of every creature. And we DON'T know that He was the first 'thing' created. It is possible that there were many things created before Him. Angels, for example. We just don't know the answer to this yet.

15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

But, your reply ignores that offered by gingercat concerning Proverbs. Who exactly is this a reference to if NOT Christ? And, once again, calling Jesus the Son is CERTAINLY an indication that Christ was created BY God. For a Father IS the ONE who creates a Son, regardless of the twisting of words to indicate otherwise.
 
maybe logic will work on you guys?

Okay, so the Word of God. Im gonna pretend that the first chapter of John doesnt exist.

God has intellect. As a result of an intelligent being, the Word was "created." However, its about as created as a thought. First of all, a thought has no form. It has no definable beginning or end. The Word is the result of the intellect of God. God thought. That thought was the Word. Now, before you guys try to debunk the arguement about our own thoughts, God is also eternal. He always has existed. He always has been intelligent. Therefore, the Word always existed as a result of the intellect of God. Now, theologically, thoughts are associated with spirit because they have no form. You cant open someones head and see a thought. Similar situation for God. But God is spirit. Therefore, an entirely spiritual being creating an entirely spiritual Word. Because it was God and his Word was spirit, it was of His substance because it came to Him of Himself, without any creative act. It just always was because God always was and is intelligent. Thats why the Word is the only begotten son of God. It has the Father-Son relationship because of the heirarchy of being creates thought. But because it is of His substance, it always existed and is part of God, because there is only ONE God. Then the Word took on flesh, as the Bible says. Therefore, Word takes on flesh (Jesus). The Word is God. It took on flesh and was named Jesus. Therefore Jesus is God.

That and the whole, children are begotten. Thats in the bible too. To be begotten means to be of the substance of that which begets you. Created is to be of a different substance. Jesus is referred to also as the Son of God. If sons are begotten or adopted, and Jesus wasnt exactly adopted (the whole Word made flesh thing), then he must be of the substance of God, or at least the part that took on flesh. And the flesh is human. Therefore, fully God, and yet fully human.
 
Some more on the facts about Jesus is God's first creation (2)

Col 1:15

Supremacy of Christ

"He is the image of the invisible God, the first born over all creation.

For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together, And he is the head of the boy, the Church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everthingFhe might have the supremacy. for God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross."

Do I need to continue?
 
Hello there, no one is refuting this? So we agree that Jesus is God's very first creation. If you still argue, I can show you some more. :D
 
I'm not arguing. I believe that Jesus Christ was God's first creation. I do, however, still believe that Jesus is God.
 
Gendou Ikari said:
I'm not arguing. I believe that Jesus Christ was God's first creation. I do, however, still believe that Jesus is God.

Createe cannot be God.
 
I believe ginger has a valid 'point' here. If, Christ is a created being, then He could ONLY be a 'part' of God, NOT God Himself. Just as any Son is a part of his Father, why does it need be different with Jesus Christ? I am confused on this issue.

I mean, would it take away anything offered through a belief that Christ IS GOD other than a 'belief' in 'trinity'? Why is it so hard for anyone to understand the relationship between Abraham and 'his' son, with God and His Son? Are all those that accept this 'trinity' blind to the correlation?

If God expected Abraham to sacrifice his son as a sign of obedience and 'love' for God, how could God offer any less in His love for us than to offer His Son as the ultimate sacrifice?

And, don't we often place MORE emphasis on the importance of our children compared to ourselves? What mother wouldn't offer her life for that of her infant or child? Well, I'm sure that there have been exceptions, but in general i think that the instinct holds.

How much more love would it take for God to allow His Son to suffer than to endure this suffering Himself? And, how could it take ANYTHING less than a 'man' to endure the sins of 'mankind'? Of what merit could it serve God to take on flesh and suffer Himself? This just doesn't make ANY sense to me whatsoever. Especially when we witness in the Word Christ talking directly to the Father in His prayers and statements and actually have instances where the voice of God spoke to Jesus.
 
gingercat said:
Gendou Ikari said:
I'm not arguing. I believe that Jesus Christ was God's first creation. I do, however, still believe that Jesus is God.

Createe cannot be God.

Quite right. "In the beginning was the Word."
When is the beginning? God has no beginning so the beginning is eternity
Who is the Word? "The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us.". Christ is the Word made flesh. Christ is the word. He was before he became human. IN FACT HE ALWAYS WAS for he WAS GOD!
.
"And the Word was with God. AND THE WORD WAS GOD!"

Christ is the eternally begotten son of God. Sonship does not mean he was created any more than Father implies that he was created, but indicates the nature of the relationship between the son and the father. Christ was God and God is from eternity to eternity. He is not created and therefore finite. He has no beginning and no end. That is the Jesus we must come to know. Any other Jesus is an idol.
 
Thessalonian said:
Christ is the word. He was before he became human. IN FACT HE ALWAYS WAS for he WAS GOD!
.
"And the Word was with God. AND THE WORD WAS GOD!"

Christ is the eternally begotten Son of God.

Begotten Son is Son, and not the Father. Jesus is created by God and He is Son of God, Savior of the world but He is not God.

He was created before anything else. He is the first creation of God.
 
gingercat said:
Thess,

Read my OP very carefully please. :sad

Odd that you stopped at v. 31, or not. :-?

[32] And now, my sons, listen to me:
happy are those who keep my ways.

So we are son's of Christ? No we are sons of God. The passage is speaking of the wisdom of God. Certainly that cannot be separated from Christ in some sense. But the passage is not explicitly about him. :crying:
 
Gingercat, the verses you provided aren't talking about Jesus.

It is wisdom personified speaking.

Proverbs 8:12

I, wisdom, dwell together with prudence; I posses knowledge and discretion.


When reading verses, take the whole chapter into consideration. :wink:
 
Gingercat, the verses you provided aren't talking about Jesus.

It is wisdom personified speaking.

Proverbs 8:12

I, wisdom, dwell together with prudence; I possess knowledge and discretion.


When reading verses, take the whole chapter into consideration. :wink:
 
Thessalonian said:
Odd that you stopped at v. 31, or not. :-?

Because the rest of the chapter changes focus to the readers. What's so odd about it?

So you are saying that you cannot see anything that I am talking about?
 
gingercat said:
Thessalonian said:
Odd that you stopped at v. 31, or not. :-?

Because the rest of the chapter changes focus to the readers. What's so odd about it?

So you are saying that you cannot see anything that I am talking about?

Read my whole post. Are we son's of Christ. The object of v.31 is the same as v. 32. The focus may be changed but it is still about wisdom. So are we son's of Christ?
 
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