- May 4, 2020
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No. That is what others are saying.Are you saying God is emotional like we humans are?
Sorry, I can't make sense of that sentence.God is truly moved by His essence in all His sovereignty.
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No. That is what others are saying.Are you saying God is emotional like we humans are?
Sorry, I can't make sense of that sentence.God is truly moved by His essence in all His sovereignty.
I use the bible description of God and draw conclusion.How can you second guess God's essence
I've answered that in several posts in the last 24ish hours.Why can't God be happy at one time and be sad at another time.
We are made in God's image. What that means is highly debated. I know of no verse that mentions we are made in God's image of love. Besides, that image was tarnished by Adam, that the meaning is obscured more.We are made in His image of love,
Yes and no. He is incomprehensible yet knowledgeable.but yet does anyone truly know God
Within God's essence His power and authority shows His emotions within His actions. He loves, He hates, He condemns, He approves, He reproves. God's emotions can not equate as ours does as He is always in control as where we are not with our emotions.No. That is what others are saying.
Sorry, I can't make sense of that sentence.
I can conclude many things about God, but yet do I always know the mind of God, no.I use the bible description of God and draw conclusion.
Example: The bible says God does not lie so I know everything he says I'd true. I don't agree with your characterization that I am 2nd guessing.
Yes, God is Love, but it seems also that God is Just, and God is Holy.God is all Spirit
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
John 4:24
God has feelings
For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:
Ex 34:14
God was in the flesh
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out o in the f the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Matthew 3:16
God's Essence of Love
Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.
Hebrews 13:2
(Compare Heb 6:10 Heb 10:32-34 Heb 12:12, 13).
The mind of God
For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
1 Corinthians 2:16
The face of God
"The LORD bless you and keep you;
The LORD make His face shine upon you, And be gracious to you;
The LORD lift up His countenance upon you, And give you peace." '
Numbers 6:24-26
The eyes of God
Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst do not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?
Habakkuk 1:13
The ears of God
And Samuel heard all the words of the people, and he rehearsed them in the ears of the LORD.
1 Samuel 8:21
The voice of God
And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
Isaiah 40:5
The heart of God
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart ,as the heart of God;
Ezekiel 28:6
The arms of God
Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments:
Exodus 6:6
The hands of God
The word of the LORD came expressly unto Ezekiel the priest, the son of Buzi, in the land of the Chaldeans by the river Chebar; and the hand of the LORD was there upon him.
Ezekiel 1:3
The finger of God
But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God has come upon you.
Luke 11:20
God remembers all
I Remember thy congregation, which thou hast purchased of old; the rod of thine inheritance, which thou hast redeemed; this mount Zion, wherein thou hast dwelt.
Psalms 74:2
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Agreed, all God's communicable attributes are HOLY. Thus, He cannot love (volition to favor-agape) that which is evil like the sons of Satan. Thus He cannot love everyone for He cannot love what He hates. He cannot love sin and sin only exists in a being (angels and men).Yes, God is Love, but it seems also that God is Just, and God is Holy.
Aside from His trinity of Persons, this is hard to fathom, especially apart from His creation. It almost sounds that He does what He indicates as undesirable for men to do.He loves Himself most of all as He is the most lovely object, then those in Christ He loves somehow as Christ.
Not sure what you are getting at... maybe specific examples.It almost sounds that He does what He indicates as undesirable for men to do.
Not sure what you are getting at... maybe specific examples.
Aside: God does do things He tells us not to do, but His motivation (usually righteousness) is just and therefore fine. Actually, by definition, anything God does is just and holy.
I pointed out that in Scripture Paul under inspiration of the Holy Spirit said that in the last days men will be 'lovers of themselves' which hints that that is an undesirable 'quality'. Yet the statement "He loves Himself most of all"Well you said He loves Himself most of all as He is the most lovely object, then those in Christ He loves somehow as Christ.
Interesting point. When I first read it I had a similar thought. Sounds self-centered / egotistical. God's self-love is not my original idea. It is a logical conclusion and I believe, scriptural.In essence self love is the epitome of sin, and it's just hard for me to fathom that that statement is true unless I can be clearly shown from Scripture.
Yes and God receives, even desires, worship from His creation yet forbids them to worship any other, yet without Scriptural support, I just can’t go so far as to say “God loves Himself”.Scriptural Evidence
I grant I don't have specific words saying "GOD loves himself more than anything". I do have abundant evidence that God's purpose is His own glory (sola Deo Gloria) and pleasure which I think is similar to the degree is support the contention "God loves Himself most of all". Thus, everything does is for his benefit and delight which is the definition of agape love.
I think I gave ample scriptural support. God purpose is to glorify himself and His pleasure. I gave 10ish verses ... I could give another 20.Yes and God receives, even desires, worship from His creation yet forbids them to worship any other, yet without Scriptural support, I just can’t go so far as to say “God loves Himself”.
I had thought better of you than to misrepresent someone. I never ever had said that God loves His creation more than Himself.Hmmm, found a site that agrees with you to the extent that God loves his creation more than Himself. Hmm, I wonder if he made a better creation if He would love it more than this one
I don't mean to misrepresent you. My apologies if I have. The discussion is about whether God loves himself more than anything else. Point out my misrepresentation (or misunderstanding. The discussion as I see it goes:I had thought better of you than to misrepresent someone. I never ever had said that God loves His creation more than Himself.
To be considered. God loves Himself more than anything else.
You state that God's self love is the epitome of sin; that my thesis that God loves himself more than anything/anyone else is more than strongly repudiated IMO. Your statement say that for God to love himself He would sin. Aside: We both know God does not sin."He loves Himself most of all"
sets God at odds with Himself, In essence self love is the epitome of sin, and it's just hard for me to fathom that that statement is true unless I can be clearly shown from Scripture.
I actually equate God's glorification of Himself as self love, self adoration, goodwill and benevolence to oneself (John 3:35), delight in oneself (Luke 3:22) . To make my point I gave the definition of agape love (The essence of agape love is goodwill, benevolence, and willful delight in the object of love) which glorification seems to fits IMO.The verses you gave pointed to God receiving glory, fine, but I don’t equate that with God in His essence loving Himself.
I’m simply looking for scriptures that state such,
I am all for sola scriptura.or should we jettison sola scripura for our own reasoning and fancy notions?
This is probably the crux of the matter. There is such a thing as man's logic and human reason. There is also such a thing called revelation from God.I am all for sola scriptura.
I am against 'fancy' notions (whatever that is)
Hmmm, using our reasoning ..... God is rational, I don't see why one cannot use logic based on the facts of scripture to draw conclusions.
I never said that "God loves his creation more than Himself".Hmmm, found a site that agrees with you to the extent that God loves his creation more than Himself.
Totally agree.This is probably the crux of the matter. There is such a thing as man's logic and human reason. There is also such a thing called revelation from God.
Human reason cannot reach or know God, but God must reveal Himself through His revelation to finite man. When speaking of God's essence, we are wholly dependent on Him revealing that essence to us fallen creatures.
Agreed. When I say logic/reason is useful I don't mean as a method to add or subtract from scripture, but to better understand it. So, for example, if God's word says He loves Bananas more than fish and God loves fish more than soda pop I can use logic to know God love Bananas more than soda pop even though there is no specific scripture saying so.To add or take away from that revelation by mixing logic and finite reasoning to the mix only pollutes His Word.
Well, you have a point. I argue:Most the supporting scriptures you gave reveal the Father's relationship with the Incarnated Son...not exactly God in His essence.
You're a hard sell. *playful giggle* You make an interesting point. I think there is literature saying Christ is but one person.... but that would be using logic on scripture so you wouldn't accept that.It may be that God loves Himself taking into consideration of the nature of the Trinity but it would sit better for me with non-incarnational proof passages.
I did not mean to intentionally misrepresent you. My apologies.BTW here is where the misrepresentation came in. I never said that "God loves his creation more than Himself".
"He loves Himself most of all"
sets God at odds with Himself, In essence self love is the epitome of sin
Wrath is a feeling.Much of what is written in Scripture describing God is 'anthropomorphic'. That is God is condescending by using imagery we as creatures of His can understand.
checkTotally agree.
UnderstoodAgreed. When I say logic/reason is useful I don't mean as a method to add or subtract from scripture, but to better understand it. So, for example, if God's word says He loves Bananas more than fish and God loves fish more than soda pop I can use logic to know God love Bananas more than soda pop even though there is no specific scripture saying so.
Premise 1. The incarnate Son is the God/man or God in the flesh.Well, you have a point. I argue:
Premise 1: The incarnate son is God
Premise 2: There is only ONE God
Conclusion: When God the father says He love God the Incarnate Son, He is saying He loves himself.
Which premise is wrong or how does the conclusion not fit?
I would say that if I could find that proposition in Scripture.Are you saying God does not have goodwill, benevolence, and willful delight in himself than any other thing ... in other words, God loves himself most as shown by how He treats Himself .
Yes there is also literature explaining the two natures of Christ (Chemnitz) in defense of the Real Presence in the Sacraments.I think there is literature saying Christ is but one person.... but that would be using logic on scripture so you wouldn't accept that.
Glad that's overI did not mean to intentionally misrepresent you. My apologies.
My thinking was that I thought you said God does not love himself as it is "in essence the epitome of sin". Since we know God loves people I concluded that you were saying by logical extension that God must love creation more than Himself.
Yes, but I wonder about the progress. lolBeen an interesting discussion. Thanks
I'm not aware that the SAT theory states that God 'feels' wrath. Can you\ quote where you came up with that?Wrath is a feeling.
Doesn't God feel wrath?
Isn't this the Penal Substitution Atonement Theory?
That sounds more like a reasoned reaction rather than an emotional outburst. I don't see the word 'feel' in the text.Doesn't Romans 1:18 state that God feels wrath?
Are you telling me or asking me?Having feelings has nothing to do with being immutable.
Sounds like you are arguing against the impassibility of God, not His immutability. (Don't these philosophical terms drive you crazy?)God is immutable because His nature and morals cannot change...not because He does not feel anything.
Remember, Jesus was/is the God/man. Fully God/fully man.If that were true, then Jesus misrepresented God, because Jesus had feelings.
Compassion
Anger
Sadness
Love
Fear
Colossians 1:16 For by Him all things were created in heaven and on earth, [things] visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities; all things were created and exist through Him [that is, by His activity] and for Him.I would say that if I could find that proposition in Scripture.