Bible Study God's Essence

[Fastfredy0]

Are you saying God is emotional like we humans are?

No. That is what others are saying.

God is truly moved by His essence in all His sovereignty.

Sorry, I can't make sense of that sentence.

 

[Fastfredy0]

How can you second guess God's essence

I use the bible description of God and draw conclusion.
Example: The bible says God does not lie so I know everything he says I'd true. I don't agree with your characterization that I am 2nd guessing.

Why can't God be happy at one time and be sad at another time.

I've answered that in several posts in the last 24ish hours.

We are made in His image of love,

We are made in God's image. What that means is highly debated. I know of no verse that mentions we are made in God's image of love. Besides, that image was tarnished by Adam, that the meaning is obscured more.

but yet does anyone truly know God

Yes and no. He is incomprehensible yet knowledgeable.
We know certain attributes of God and therefore, to some degree know Him. He does not change so if he in joyous, his joy never varies. He is perfect, thus his joy, whatever that is exactly, cannot be improved. We know He is eternal so He created time, is outside of time, not effected by time, yet interacts in time to accommodate our short comings. That being said, no one really can comprehend eternity.

Read Stephen Charnock's The Existence and Attributes of God ... fascinating IMO

 

[for_his_glory]

No. That is what others are saying.

Sorry, I can't make sense of that sentence.

Within God's essence His power and authority shows His emotions within His actions. He loves, He hates, He condemns, He approves, He reproves. God's emotions can not equate as ours does as He is always in control as where we are not with our emotions.

 

[for_his_glory]

I use the bible description of God and draw conclusion.
Example: The bible says God does not lie so I know everything he says I'd true. I don't agree with your characterization that I am 2nd guessing.

I can conclude many things about God, but yet do I always know the mind of God, no.
The thread is about God's essence, not about whether He lies or not as we all know He does not lie.

 

[crossnote]

God is all Spirit
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
John 4:24

God has feelings
For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:
Ex 34:14

God was in the flesh
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out o in the f the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Matthew 3:16

God's Essence of Love
Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.
Hebrews 13:2
(Compare Heb 6:10 Heb 10:32-34 Heb 12:12, 13).

The mind of God
For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
1 Corinthians 2:16

The face of God
"The LORD bless you and keep you;
The LORD make His face shine upon you, And be gracious to you;
The LORD lift up His countenance upon you, And give you peace." '
Numbers 6:24-26

The eyes of God
Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst do not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?
Habakkuk 1:13

The ears of God
And Samuel heard all the words of the people, and he rehearsed them in the ears of the LORD.
1 Samuel 8:21

The voice of God
And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
Isaiah 40:5

The heart of God
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart ,as the heart of God;
Ezekiel 28:6

The arms of God
Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments:
Exodus 6:6

The hands of God
The word of the LORD came expressly unto Ezekiel the priest, the son of Buzi, in the land of the Chaldeans by the river Chebar; and the hand of the LORD was there upon him.
Ezekiel 1:3

The finger of God
But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God has come upon you.
Luke 11:20

God remembers all
I Remember thy congregation, which thou hast purchased of old; the rod of thine inheritance, which thou hast redeemed; this mount Zion, wherein thou hast dwelt.
Psalms 74:2

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Yes, God is Love, but it seems also that God is Just, and God is Holy.
I'd also argue that in His essence, God doesn't have appendages, but the God/man does.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Yes, God is Love, but it seems also that God is Just, and God is Holy.

Agreed, all God's communicable attributes are HOLY. Thus, He cannot love (volition to favor-agape) that which is evil like the sons of Satan. Thus He cannot love everyone for He cannot love what He hates. He cannot love sin and sin only exists in a being (angels and men).
He loves Himself most of all as He is the most lovely object, then those in Christ He loves somehow as Christ.

 

[crossnote]

He loves Himself most of all as He is the most lovely object, then those in Christ He loves somehow as Christ.

Aside from His trinity of Persons, this is hard to fathom, especially apart from His creation. It almost sounds that He does what He indicates as undesirable for men to do.

1 ¶ This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, (2Ti 3:1, 2)

 

[Fastfredy0]

It almost sounds that He does what He indicates as undesirable for men to do.

Not sure what you are getting at... maybe specific examples.

Aside: God does do things He tells us not to do, but His motivation (usually righteousness) is just and therefore fine. Actually, by definition, anything God does is just and holy.

 

[crossnote]

Not sure what you are getting at... maybe specific examples.

Aside: God does do things He tells us not to do, but His motivation (usually righteousness) is just and therefore fine. Actually, by definition, anything God does is just and holy.

Well you said He loves Himself most of all as He is the most lovely object, then those in Christ He loves somehow as Christ.

I pointed out that in Scripture Paul under inspiration of the Holy Spirit said that in the last days men will be 'lovers of themselves' which hints that that is an undesirable 'quality'. Yet the statement "He loves Himself most of all"
sets God at odds with Himself, In essence self love is the epitome of sin, and it's just hard for me to fathom that that statement is true unless I can be clearly shown from Scripture.

 

[Fastfredy0]

In essence self love is the epitome of sin, and it's just hard for me to fathom that that statement is true unless I can be clearly shown from Scripture.

Interesting point. When I first read it I had a similar thought. Sounds self-centered / egotistical. God's self-love is not my original idea. It is a logical conclusion and I believe, scriptural.

To be considered. God loves Himself more than anything else.
Definition of Agape Love: The essence of agape love is goodwill, benevolence, and willful delight in the object of love. (Gotquestions.org)

Scriptural Evidence
I grant I don't have specific words saying "GOD loves himself more than anything". I do have abundant evidence that God's purpose is His own glory (sola Deo Gloria) and pleasure which I think is similar to the degree is support the contention "God loves Himself most of all". Thus, everything does is for his benefit and delight which is the definition of agape love.

• Colossians 1:15-18
• Isaiah 43:7 Everyone who is called by My Name, Whom I have created for My glory,
• Isaiah 43:21 “The people whom I formed for Myself will make known My praise.
• Ephesians 3:10 So now through the church the multifaceted wisdom of God [in all its countless aspects] might now be made known [revealing the mystery] to the [angelic] rulers and authorities in the heavenly places.
• Psalm 106:8 Nevertheless He saved them for His name’s sake, That He might make His [supreme] power known.
• Psalm148:13. "His name alone is excellent, and his glory is above the earth and heaven."
• Psalm 135:6 “Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places”
• Jeremiah 31:11 "For the Lord hath redeemed Jacob, he hath glorified himself in Israel."
• John 12:27 “Now My soul has become troubled; and what shall I say, ‘Father, save Me from this hour’? But for this purpose I came to this hour. 28 “Father, glorify Thy name.” There came therefore a voice out of heaven: “I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.”
• there's are many, many more similar verses

Logical evidence:
God exists as a trinity. Each person cannot help but infinitely love the other persons that make up one God as each person has the same essence.

All things save God are created. They have no intrinsic value. What value they have was determined and created by God, a reflection of God to the degree He determined to bless the object. Thus, there is NOTHING to love save God's own works. There is nothing to love external to God save what He has done.

Aside: I believe He does love as determined by the degree which any work resemble Gods (God being the most lovable as He is infinitely perfect). Those In Christ resemble God most to the degree that the elect are In Christ and each to the trinity is in the elect. The elect, though created, are loved greatly (infinitely?).

Stephen Charnock - Existence and Attributes of God
God cannot will any other thing but himself as his end, because there is nothing superior to himself in goodness.

God cannot so properly be said to make the creature his end, as himself. For the creature is not as yet considered as existing. Edwards, Jonathan. The Complete Works of Jonathan Edwards

That's my 2 cents worth.

 

[crossnote]

Scriptural Evidence
I grant I don't have specific words saying "GOD loves himself more than anything". I do have abundant evidence that God's purpose is His own glory (sola Deo Gloria) and pleasure which I think is similar to the degree is support the contention "God loves Himself most of all". Thus, everything does is for his benefit and delight which is the definition of agape love.

Yes and God receives, even desires, worship from His creation yet forbids them to worship any other, yet without Scriptural support, I just can’t go so far as to say “God loves Himself”.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Yes and God receives, even desires, worship from His creation yet forbids them to worship any other, yet without Scriptural support, I just can’t go so far as to say “God loves Himself”.

I think I gave ample scriptural support. God purpose is to glorify himself and His pleasure. I gave 10ish verses ... I could give another 20.

I did a google scan on "Does God Love Himself"

https://www.desiringgod.org/messages/is-god-for-us-or-for-himself--2

Is God for Us or for Himself? I would like to try to persuade you that the chief end of God is to glorify God and enjoy himself forever. Or to put it another way: the chief end of God is to enjoy glorifying himself.​

The site gives an explanation and verses (looks like the verses I gave)

___________________________________

No One Loved Himself Like Jesus

No human has ever truly loved himself as well as Jesus. The solution to the problem of self-love is the self-love of Jesus.

www.desiringgod.org

An article entitled, "No One Loved Himself Like Jesus"
________________________________________

God Loves Us More Than He Loves Himself?!?!

Yes, I believe (along with many others!) that God the Father, Son and Spirit does love us more than He loves Himself! I am asked this question with shock and doubt a bit, and probably because I tr…

trinityandhumanity.com

Hmmm, found a site that agrees with you to the extent that God loves his creation more than Himself. Hmm, I wonder if he made a better creation if He would love it more than this one.

__________________________________

​

 

[crossnote]

Hmmm, found a site that agrees with you to the extent that God loves his creation more than Himself. Hmm, I wonder if he made a better creation if He would love it more than this one

I had thought better of you than to misrepresent someone. I never ever had said that God loves His creation more than Himself.
Although I am well acquainted with the old Calvinistic theologians, Puritans and Lutheran Confessions I am not a fan of Piper or the neo-Reformed bunch.
The verses you gave pointed to God receiving glory, fine, but I don’t equate that with God in His essence loving Himself.
I’m simply looking for scriptures that state such, or should we jettison sola scripura for our own reasoning and fancy notions?

 

[Fastfredy0]

I had thought better of you than to misrepresent someone. I never ever had said that God loves His creation more than Himself.

I don't mean to misrepresent you. My apologies if I have. The discussion is about whether God loves himself more than anything else. Point out my misrepresentation (or misunderstanding. The discussion as I see it goes:

To be considered. God loves Himself more than anything else.

You, as best I can understand you, do not agree with the above statement as evidenced by the stated below.

"He loves Himself most of all"
sets God at odds with Himself, In essence self love is the epitome of sin, and it's just hard for me to fathom that that statement is true unless I can be clearly shown from Scripture.

You state that God's self love is the epitome of sin; that my thesis that God loves himself more than anything/anyone else is more than strongly repudiated IMO. Your statement say that for God to love himself He would sin. Aside: We both know God does not sin.

I pointed out that for your statement to be true, God must love His creation (or some part of it) more than He loves Himself. This seems a logical inference. I suppose God does not have to love Himself at all to love something more.
It is also a logical inference:
Premise 1: God loves someone/something more than Himself
Conclusion 1: The Father loves something/someone more than the Son or the Spirit
Conclusion 2: The Son loves something/someone more than the Father or the Spirit
Conclusion 3: The Father loves something/someone more than the Son or the Father

The verses you gave pointed to God receiving glory, fine, but I don’t equate that with God in His essence loving Himself.

I actually equate God's glorification of Himself as self love, self adoration, goodwill and benevolence to oneself (John 3:35), delight in oneself (Luke 3:22) . To make my point I gave the definition of agape love (The essence of agape love is goodwill, benevolence, and willful delight in the object of love) which glorification seems to fits IMO.

I’m simply looking for scriptures that state such,

Proof that God loves Himself

• John 3:35 The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand.
• John 17:24 Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
• Eph. 1:6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
• Luke 3:22 and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came out of heaven, “You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased
• John 15:9 Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. (speaks VERY HIGHLY of the elect ... others on this website feel Christ loves the sons of Satan as much as He loves the Father as they claim God loves everyone, but that another story) John 17:23 I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.
• John 14:23 but so that the world may know that I love the Father, I do exactly as the Father commanded Me. Get up, let us go from here.
• Romans 11:36

or should we jettison sola scripura for our own reasoning and fancy notions?

I am all for sola scriptura.
I am against 'fancy' notions (whatever that is)
Hmmm, using our reasoning ..... God is rational, I don't see why one cannot use logic based on the facts of scripture to draw conclusions. For example, I know scripture talks about The Angel of God. It does not say this angel is God, but that Angel has attributes stated in scripture that lead me to conclude it was God. I know if scripture says 3 ponies and 3 rabbits went into the ark then that is 6 animals.

 

[crossnote]

I am all for sola scriptura.
I am against 'fancy' notions (whatever that is)
Hmmm, using our reasoning ..... God is rational, I don't see why one cannot use logic based on the facts of scripture to draw conclusions.

This is probably the crux of the matter. There is such a thing as man's logic and human reason. There is also such a thing called revelation from God.
Human reason cannot reach or know God, but God must reveal Himself through His revelation to finite man. When speaking of God's essence, we are wholly dependent on Him revealing that essence to us fallen creatures. To add or take away from that revelation by mixing logic and finite reasoning to the mix only pollutes His Word.
Most the supporting scriptures you gave reveal the Father's relationship with the Incarnated Son...not exactly God in His essence.
It may be that God loves Himself taking into consideration of the nature of the Trinity but it would sit better for me with non-incarnational proof passages.

BTW here is where the misrepresentation came in.

Hmmm, found a site that agrees with you to the extent that God loves his creation more than Himself.

I never said that "God loves his creation more than Himself".

 

[Fastfredy0]

This is probably the crux of the matter. There is such a thing as man's logic and human reason. There is also such a thing called revelation from God.
Human reason cannot reach or know God, but God must reveal Himself through His revelation to finite man. When speaking of God's essence, we are wholly dependent on Him revealing that essence to us fallen creatures.

Totally agree.

To add or take away from that revelation by mixing logic and finite reasoning to the mix only pollutes His Word.

Agreed. When I say logic/reason is useful I don't mean as a method to add or subtract from scripture, but to better understand it. So, for example, if God's word says He loves Bananas more than fish and God loves fish more than soda pop I can use logic to know God love Bananas more than soda pop even though there is no specific scripture saying so.

Most the supporting scriptures you gave reveal the Father's relationship with the Incarnated Son...not exactly God in His essence.

Well, you have a point. I argue:
Premise 1: The incarnate son is God
Premise 2: There is only ONE God
Conclusion: When God the father says He love God the Incarnate Son, He is saying He loves himself.
Which premise is wrong or how does the conclusion not fit?

My other argument is using the definition of agape love (love is goodwill, benevolence, and willful delight in the object of love). Are you saying God does not have goodwill, benevolence, and willful delight in himself than any other thing ... in other words, God loves himself most as shown by how He treats Himself ... I say deservedly so; that to not do so would be unjust and since God's essence included righteousness it seems to follow that He should love and honor justly according to the merit of the object.

It may be that God loves Himself taking into consideration of the nature of the Trinity but it would sit better for me with non-incarnational proof passages.

You're a hard sell. *playful giggle* You make an interesting point. I think there is literature saying Christ is but one person.... but that would be using logic on scripture so you wouldn't accept that.

BTW here is where the misrepresentation came in. I never said that "God loves his creation more than Himself".

I did not mean to intentionally misrepresent you. My apologies.
My thinking was that I thought you said God does not love himself as it is "in essence the epitome of sin". Since we know God loves people I concluded that you were saying by logical extension that God must love creation more than Himself.
I think the discussion is: God loves himself more than anything else and you did say:

"He loves Himself most of all"
sets God at odds with Himself, In essence self love is the epitome of sin

Been an interesting discussion. Thanks

 

[GodsGrace]

Much of what is written in Scripture describing God is 'anthropomorphic'. That is God is condescending by using imagery we as creatures of His can understand.

Wrath is a feeling.
Doesn't God feel wrath?
Isn't this the Penal Substitution Atonement Theory?

Doesn't Romans 1:18 state that God feels wrath?

Having feelings has nothing to do with being immutable.

God is immutable because His nature and morals cannot change...not because He does not feel anything.

If that were true, then Jesus misrepresented God, because Jesus had feelings.
Compassion
Anger
Sadness
Love
Fear

 

[crossnote]

Totally agree.

check

Agreed. When I say logic/reason is useful I don't mean as a method to add or subtract from scripture, but to better understand it. So, for example, if God's word says He loves Bananas more than fish and God loves fish more than soda pop I can use logic to know God love Bananas more than soda pop even though there is no specific scripture saying so.

Understood

Well, you have a point. I argue:
Premise 1: The incarnate son is God
Premise 2: There is only ONE God
Conclusion: When God the father says He love God the Incarnate Son, He is saying He loves himself.
Which premise is wrong or how does the conclusion not fit?

Premise 1. The incarnate Son is the God/man or God in the flesh.
Remember He is representing us as man.

Are you saying God does not have goodwill, benevolence, and willful delight in himself than any other thing ... in other words, God loves himself most as shown by how He treats Himself .

I would say that if I could find that proposition in Scripture.

I think there is literature saying Christ is but one person.... but that would be using logic on scripture so you wouldn't accept that.

Yes there is also literature explaining the two natures of Christ (Chemnitz) in defense of the Real Presence in the Sacraments.

I did not mean to intentionally misrepresent you. My apologies.
My thinking was that I thought you said God does not love himself as it is "in essence the epitome of sin". Since we know God loves people I concluded that you were saying by logical extension that God must love creation more than Himself.

Glad that's over

Been an interesting discussion. Thanks

Yes, but I wonder about the progress. lol

p.s. I'm not a multitasker nor a thorough type person. I do best with shorter type replies. thx

 

[crossnote]

Wrath is a feeling.
Doesn't God feel wrath?
Isn't this the Penal Substitution Atonement Theory?

I'm not aware that the SAT theory states that God 'feels' wrath. Can you\ quote where you came up with that?

Doesn't Romans 1:18 state that God feels wrath?

That sounds more like a reasoned reaction rather than an emotional outburst. I don't see the word 'feel' in the text.

Having feelings has nothing to do with being immutable.

Are you telling me or asking me?

God is immutable because His nature and morals cannot change...not because He does not feel anything.

Sounds like you are arguing against the impassibility of God, not His immutability. (Don't these philosophical terms drive you crazy?)

If that were true, then Jesus misrepresented God, because Jesus had feelings.
Compassion
Anger
Sadness
Love
Fear

Remember, Jesus was/is the God/man. Fully God/fully man.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Fastfredy: Are you saying God does not have goodwill, benevolence, and willful delight in himself than any other thing ... in other words, God loves himself most as shown by how He treats Himself .

I would say that if I could find that proposition in Scripture.

Colossians 1:16 For by Him all things were created in heaven and on earth, [things] visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities; all things were created and exist through Him [that is, by His activity] and for Him.
Aside: You know, this would be much simpler if you gave a verse saying "God does not love himself"