Bible Study God's Essence

[crossnote]

Aside: You know, this would be much simpler if you gave a verse saying "God does not love himself"

Totally .

 

[D-D-W]

Doesn't Romans 1:18 state that God feels wrath?

No. It does not even say that "wrath" is primarily a feeling.

In the Greek it is the word orge - G3709. In the LXX orge was used to translate kehtsef H7110 which is more about the outward actions of violence than any internal feeling.

 

[GodsGrace]

No. It does not even say that "wrath" is primarily a feeling.

In the Greek it is the word orge - G3709. In the LXX orge was used to translate kehtsef H7110 which is more about the outward actions of violence than any internal feeling.

If I'm acting violently, isn't that a reaction to a feeling?

I'll say this: if God cannot share in pir feelings, then we're dealing with a Deistic God.

Don't we believe that we are dealing with a personal God?

 

[D-D-W]

If I'm acting violently, isn't that a reaction to a feeling?
I'll say this: if God cannot share in our feelings, then we're dealing with a Deistic God.
Don't we believe that we are dealing with a personal God?

Of course God is personal and has emotions. Our own emotions are part of being made in HIS image.

I am saying "wrath" is the visible outward expression of the emotion of anger; and not an emotion itself.

 

[GodsGrace]

Of course God is personal and has emotions. Our own emotions are part of being made in HIS image.

I am saying "wrath" is the visible outward expression of the emotion of anger; and not an emotion itself.

Agreed.

 

[Fastfredy0]

I am saying "wrath" is the visible outward expression of the emotion of anger; and not an emotion itself.

I liked your other comment better as it left less doubt that God's anger (or wrath or hate for that matter) is an emotion

[anger] is more about the outward actions of violence than any internal feeling.

Jonathan Edwards: if God’s infinite hatred against sin included “pain and grief” over each sin, then the countless sins committed by demons and men would cause God to “suffer infinite pain, every day” and make him “the most miserable of all beings”—whereas in truth, God is “perfectly happy,” for he sovereignly uses the evil of sin for his glory.

In the Bible, hatred [anger] is not an emotion primarily, but rather a covenant action to disfavor. Gotquestions.org

Owen said that in the Bible, the anger of God denotes “the effects of anger” and “a constant and immutable will in God of avenging and punishing, by a just punishment, every injury, transgression, and sin.”

 

[GodsGrace]

I liked your other comment better as it left less doubt that God's anger (or wrath or hate for that matter) is an emotion


Jonathan Edwards: if God’s infinite hatred against sin included “pain and grief” over each sin, then the countless sins committed by demons and men would cause God to “suffer infinite pain, every day” and make him “the most miserable of all beings”—whereas in truth, God is “perfectly happy,” for he sovereignly uses the evil of sin for his glory.

In the Bible, hatred [anger] is not an emotion primarily, but rather a covenant action to disfavor. Gotquestions.org

Owen said that in the Bible, the anger of God denotes “the effects of anger” and “a constant and immutable will in God of avenging and punishing, by a just punishment, every injury, transgression, and sin.”

Got questions, Owen, etc....

Could you post something from the bible that teaches us that God has no emotion?

Owen is not inspired by God..
GotGuestions is reformed in Theology and is thus not impartial.

It's good to learn from scripture rather than from others. Scripture does not support your POV...

Please post some verses...

 

[GodsGrace]

Got questions, Owen, etc....

Could you post something from the bible that teaches us that God has no emotion?

Owen is not inspired by God..
GotGuestions is reformed in Theology and is thus not impartial.

It's good to learn from scripture rather than from others. Scripture does not support your POV...

Please post some verses...

Fastfredy0

No answer fastfred?
How come?

Are you unable to post something from scripture that teaches that God has no emotion?
It's only anthropomorphic you say?

OK. This would mean that we cannot trust the bible AT ALL since we will never know when something is anthropomorphic or when it is actually speaking to a characteristic of God....

No wonder you use other sources...the bible is not to be trusted !

Does this also mean that we cannot trust Jesus?
He was the true representation of God....you go so far as to say that if a person does not know about Jesus, he cannot even be saved !
So was Jesus NOT the true representation of God?
It seems from the N.T. writings that Jesus had feelings, emotions.

Is it because Jesus was a man at the time?
So then do you also not believe in the hypostatic union?

Was Jesus a man...God or 100% man and 100% God.

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm not aware that the SAT theory states that God 'feels' wrath. Can you\ quote where you came up with that?

That sounds more like a reasoned reaction rather than an emotional outburst. I don't see the word 'feel' in the text.

Are you telling me or asking me?

Sounds like you are arguing against the impassibility of God, not His immutability. (Don't these philosophical terms drive you crazy?)

Remember, Jesus was/is the God/man. Fully God/fully man.

Hey Crossnote
Just saw this.
What do you understand IMPASSIBLE to mean?

 

[Fastfredy0]

The Source of God’s Pleasure

God’s pleasure in his creatures is the joy of the Giver of all good. His aseity and sufficiency teach us that he never receives any good that is not already His (Job 35:7-8). God has pleasure in saving His people by grace, for “he delighteth in mercy” (Micah 7:18). The fact that God is the Giver does not limit his happiness, but reveals that he is the happiest of all, for “it is more blessed to give than to receive” (Acts 20:35).

God’s pleasure in his people is the gladness of his grace to them. God rejoices over his people as he does them good and draws them near to himself. The Lord said of Israel, Jeremiah 32:41 “Yea, I will rejoice over them to do them good, and I will plant them in this land assuredly with my whole heart and with my whole soul,” an anthropomorphic expression for God’s intense concern and absolute commitment. Joel Beeke Reformed Systematic Theology

The happiness of the creature cannot be the final end of God's action. There would be no wisdom in this case, because the superior would be subordinated to the inferior. This would be folly, not wisdom. It would be a maladaptation of means to ends. The end would be made the means, and the means the end. The infinite would exist for the finite. The creature in any aspect cannot be regarded as the last end, any more than the first cause of all things. The finite will cannot be an ultimate end for the infinite will. The creature must say, "Not my will, but thine be done." Similarly, a finite nature or being cannot be an ultimate end for the infinite being. William G.T. Shedd. Dogmatic Theology: Volume 1 (Kindle Locations 4783-4793). Kindle Edition.

 

[crossnote]

Hey Crossnote
Just saw this.
What do you understand IMPASSIBLE to mean?

I would say that impassibility speaks more specifically to the fact that God's emotions do not change, it is His nature.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Impassibility (Independence, his eternal will outward to change the world, not from the world to change him, pleasure from giving)​

The dictionary defines "emotion" as "disturbance, excitement; the affective aspect of consciousness; a state of feeling; a psychic and physical reaction (as anger or fear) subjectively experienced as strong feeling and physiologically involving changes that prepare the body for immediate vigorous action."

The word emotion comes from the Middle French word emotion, which means "a (social) moving, stirring, agitation."

Impassibility is not a distinct attribute of God, but the Creator’s immutability with respect to his affection.

The Divine nature cannot be increased; for whatsoever receives anything than what it had in itself before (i.e. love, worship), must necessarily receive it from another, because nothing can give to itself that which it hath not. But God cannot receive from another what he hath not already, because whatsoever other things possess is derived from him, and, therefore, contained in him, as the fountain contains the virtue in itself which it conveys to the streams; so that God cannot gain anything. Stephen Charnock

The biblical teachings on God’s affections are some of the most comforting and helpful in all of his Word. However, they remain some of the most puzzling. If God’s affections are eternal and immutable, then how can God relate affectionately to us in the changes through which we pass in time?

In light of God’s simplicity, infinity, eternity, and immutability, we cannot say that his affections toward us in our changing states imply a change in him.

R. C. Sproul: “we must not let a speculative form of impassibility strip God of his personal attributes, especially his attribute of love. . . . If he has no capacity for affection, he has no capacity for love.” On the other hand, we must not let the finite qualities of our human affections be attributed to God in a manner that strips him of his majesty.


Modern theological discourse reflects the ambiguity of passion, for impassibility can variously refer to God’s inability to suffer, inability to suffer except insofar as he chooses, sovereignty over his own affections, immutability of his affections, or lack of any affections. We must be careful not to read into every affirmation of impassibility a denial of all affectionate qualities to God’s will. [So,] what does it mean that God is affectionate, sovereign, and immutable?

God is neither univocal (meaning the same for him as it does for us) nor equivocal (meaning something completely different); it is analogical language (meaning something similar but not identical). We cannot answer the question, Does God have affections? with an unqualified yes or no because the personal life of the infinite, eternal, unchangeable Lord has some points of resemblance to the emotions of his human image bearers, but it transcends them.

People may answer the question “Whether affections be properly in God?” differently according to what they mean by the word. If affection is taken in the sense of human passion, then we cannot affirm it of God without denying his simplicity, immutability, and blessedness. Yet it is possible to speak of “analogical affections” that point to a “transcendent perfection in God.” Though passion and affection can be used synonymously, it is possible to distinguish them as passive and active: passions are the inner reactions of a person originating from outside influences, but affections may originate in the person’s own will to influence others. When theologians say that God is “unaffected” by the world, they do not mean that he is indifferent to it, but (if we may think of “affect” as a line of influence) that the direction of his affection flows from his eternal will outward to change the world, not from the world to change him. A.W.Pink

Job 35:7 “If you are righteous, what do you give God, Or what does He receive from your hand? 8 “Your wickedness affects only a man such as you, And your righteousness affects only a son of man [but it cannot affect God, who is sovereign]”
Job 41:11 Who has first given to Me, that I should repay him?
Isaiah 58:8

Aside: The impassibility does NOT apply to the human nature of Christ. i.e. John 11:35

Love also is not an emotion in the Bible, but a volition. His love is uncaused (uninfluenced) as God is independent (Ephesians 1:4). Since God loves His people in Christ, it is not regulated by their fruitfulness, but is the same at all times. Because He loves them in Christ, the Father loves them as Christ. The time will come when His prayer will be answered, “that the world may know that thou hast sent Me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved Me” (John 17:23). V.Cheung

 

[D-D-W]

Does God feel anger? Clearly the answer is "yes."
Does that anger subside? Again, the biblical answer is "yes."

Isaiah 57:16
“For I will not contend forever,
Nor will I always be angry;
For the spirit would grow faint before Me,
And the breath of those whom I have made.

Jeremiah 3:12
Go and proclaim these words toward the north and say,
‘Return, faithless Israel,’ declares the Lord;
‘I will not look upon you in anger.
For I am gracious,’ declares the Lord;
‘I will not be angry forever.

Ezekiel 5:13
‘Thus My anger will be spent and I will satisfy My wrath on them, and I will be appeased; then they will know that I, the Lord, have spoken in My zeal when I have spent My wrath upon them.

Ezekiel 16:42
So I will calm My fury against you and My jealousy will depart from you, and I will be pacified and angry no more.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Does God feel anger? Clearly the answer is "yes."
Does that anger subside? Again, the biblical answer is "yes."

Agreed. God is described in the bible as being angry and the angry subsides.

Strictly speaking, wrath/ANGER is not an attribute of God’s nature, but is his “holy justice against sin”. Joel Beeke Reformed Systematic Theology Job 35:7 “If you are righteous, what do you give God, Or what does He receive from your hand? 8 “Your wickedness affects only a man such as you, And your righteousness affects only a son of man [but it cannot affect God, who is sovereign]” Consider: If an action of mine can cause anger in God in a similar way that I can cause anger in a man, then this means that I can cause anger in God by my power. To the degree that he lacks self-control, he is helpless against my efforts to cause anger in him. Likewise, if an action of mine can produce joy in God in a similar way that I can produce joy in a man, then this means that I have the ability to produce joy in God at will. In this manner, I would exercise a significant measure of control over God. But this contradicts his sovereignty [independence] and immutability. Vincent Cheung

Jonathan Edwards: if God’s infinite hatred against sin included “pain and grief” over each sin, then the countless sins committed by demons and men would cause God to “suffer infinite pain, every day” and make him “the most miserable of all beings”—whereas in truth, God is “perfectly happy,” for he sovereignly uses the evil of sin for his glory.

If he doth whatsoever he pleaseth, nothing can make him miserable, since misery consists in those things which happen against our will. Stephen Charnock

God controls all events, so the things that he hates he also permitted and planned to occur, but God would not cause Himself anguish for that is contradictory to the definition of a perfect being. God’s glory is the purpose to allow evil. Romans 9:22 What if God, although willing to show His [terrible] wrath and to make His power known, has tolerated with great patience the objects of His wrath [which are] prepared for destruction? 23 And what if He has done so to make known the riches of His glory to the objects of His mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory. Thus references are anthropomorphic.

God is incomprehensible and transcendent so our perception is always imprecise. (see Doctrine of Analogy)

God is eternal (no succession of moments), immutable and impassible, so any emotion he has does not vary and thus does not fit our definition of hate.

Since God is impassable -- his mind cannot be emotionally disturbed -- this means that divine hate is not emotional; rather, God’s hate (wrath) is [anthropomorphic] and a volition to demonstrate his holy justice against sin. Since God is holy He is separate from all that is unclean and evil. Thus, God’s hate is an intellectual disposition of disassociation and disfavor to those who are not morally perfect (God is holy/light).

As pertaining to the elect, the absolute, innate holiness of God means that sinners have to be separated from Him unless a way can be found to constitute them holy. And that way has been provided in the merits of Jesus Christ (imputation of our sin to Christ and the imputation of Christ’s righteousness to the elect).

The ability to anger God where anger is to change His mood is the rejection of the belief in that God is a perfect, infinite and immutable being for to cause anger to to change God; anger is an imperfection.

 

[crossnote]

Does God feel anger? Clearly the answer is "yes."
Does that anger subside? Again, the biblical answer is "yes."

Isaiah 57:16
“For I will not contend forever,
Nor will I always be angry;
For the spirit would grow faint before Me,
And the breath of those whom I have made.

Jeremiah 3:12
Go and proclaim these words toward the north and say,
‘Return, faithless Israel,’ declares the Lord;
‘I will not look upon you in anger.
For I am gracious,’ declares the Lord;
‘I will not be angry forever.

Ezekiel 5:13
‘Thus My anger will be spent and I will satisfy My wrath on them, and I will be appeased; then they will know that I, the Lord, have spoken in My zeal when I have spent My wrath upon them.

Ezekiel 16:42
So I will calm My fury against you and My jealousy will depart from you, and I will be pacified and angry no more.

I may or may not agree with your view, but I appreciate the attempted use of God's Word to back your position. It sure beats the use of philosophies, psychology and even Christian doctrinal traditions, to pry into the inner nature of God.

 

[GodsGrace]

I would say that impassibility speaks more specifically to the fact that God's emotions do not change, it is His nature.

Agreed. Immutability and impassability mean basically the same thing.

So now I FORGOT!
You believe God does not have feeling, or He does have feelings?

 

[crossnote]

Agreed. Immutability and impassability mean basically the same thing.

So now I FORGOT!
You believe God does not have feeling, or He does have feelings?

define 'feelings' (hehe)