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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
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Bible Study Gods festivals or jewish festivals?
- Thread starter lowrab777
- Start date
TOG
Member
Let me see if I understand this correctly. If I do realize that the Feast of Trumpets points to Christ's second coming, then I shouldn't celebrate it, but if I don't realize that it points to his return, then I should keep it. Is that right? If I do realize that Passover points to Christ's crucifixion and that Easter is a Pagan fertility celebration, then I should celebrate Easter and not celebrate Passover, but if I don't realize these things, then I should reject Easter and celebrate Passover. Is that it?
The TOG
Jethro Bodine
Member
Jethro Bodine
Member
They are no longer the covenant by which the people of God must relate to God through, or else be condemned. The New Covenant of Christ's blood is the covenant by which the people of God must relate to God through now. The interesting part being the New Covenant of Christ's blood and body and ministry does not abolish what the old covenant required, but fulfills it to God's complete and total satisfaction.
...The erroneous thinking that to observe them is categorically and without exception an attempt to be justified by keeping them. As if there is no other motivation possible for keeping them.
Sinthesis
Member
People see what they want to see; realize what they want to realize. If you don't believe in the finished work of Christ, then by all means feel free to cover yourself in the rituals of those still waiting on the Messiah. If you believe Christ is powerless to overcome old pagan customs by removing their original symbolism and replacing it with symbolism glorifying God, then by all means avoid them lest it become a sin to you. You have the liberty in Christ to observe as the Holy Spirit directs you. It will depend on what you personally see or realize.
A
agua.
Guest
I don't see how observing Holy Days necessarily implies someone thinks Christ is powerless in the way you suggest Sinthesis. It seems Yahweh is fine with people observing these days, or not.
Rom 14:4-6 KJV Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. (5) One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. (6) He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
TOG
Member
Could you please explain to me how celebrating God's festivals is "covering yourself in rituals", but celebrating "sanctified" Pagan festivals is not "covering yourself in rituals"? While you're at it, could you explain how obeying God's Word equates to believing Christ is powerless?
The TOG
Jethro Bodine
Member
Did TOG tell you he doesn't believe in the finished work of Christ, or are you assuming he doesn't because you think that is the only possible reason he or anyone else would want to keep the Feasts?
Generally speaking, church doctrine resists Feast observance because the church can't see or realize that it's okay to glorify God using the actual symbolism God himself established that does that.
What is forbidden about Feast observance, and many other things commanded in the law (including 'love your neighbor as yourself') is doing that in order to be justified before God. How the church missed this important fact in the plain teaching of God's word is almost beyond belief. It has gotten to the point where it is believed by some that to simply consult the law is to deny Christ.
We see Paul keeping the Festival cycle in the NT, but I would hardly sweep him into the category of those 'still waiting on the Messiah'. And we know from his very own teaching that he definitely was not doing that in order to be justified before God. There was no official Church in existence yet to tell him that any and all Feast observance was the attempt to be justified by the law and a denial of Christ.
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Jethro Bodine
Member
You mean it's possible to observe the law with thanksgiving and not because you're trying to be justified by the law?
I think Paul is telling us that just because we ourselves may not be able to observe the law out of thankfulness and not for reason of justification we need to stop judging others who can and leave them alone.
I'm not sure if I learn more about human nature in these kinds of discussions than I do about doctrinal truth. So much conflict and dissension comes from our humanness (in this case, the inability to know that someone else can legitimately think and operate differently than us), not from doctrine itself.
TOG
Member
Remember guys this is the Bible study forum ... Not necessarily directed at the last poster....
Thaks for the reminder. I'll try to keep that in mind.
The TOG
A
agua.
Guest
I agree but there's also the other side of the coin I think we should consider. There was a Jewish push to continue observances as justification in the early Church days and they "snobbed" Christians ( esp. non Jewish ) who baulked at it. So really I think we should shouldn't push in either direction and let each individual do what they prefer. Personally I'd love to be involved in a full years celebrations and see them in action some time. Worshipping as Yahweh showed is a good thing.
Jethro Bodine
Member
True enough. But I think Paul's teaching and the council of Acts 15 pretty much ended that even back then. I learned from history that what sprouted was the exact opposite knee-jerk reaction to that, that any and all ceremonial law keeping was anathema (made you accursed). That's the prevailing theology today. The coin has been flipped to that side for a long, long time now.
Virtually all Messianic Christians will make it clear to you that they do not believe you have to keep the ceremonial Festival cycle for the purpose of justification. As I say, it seems that argument has been crushed into the dirt for longer than the 'you can't keep the Festival cycle for any reason' argument has even been around.
Three things changed my personal resistance to other people's ceremonial law keeping (as a note, I personally do not keep it):
1) The law keeping that Paul says is forbidden is law keeping for the purpose of justification, not just any ol' law keeping as most of us in the church are taught.
2) Paul explains how it's possible that a person can keep the ceremonial law from a motive of thanksgiving. I had to honestly ask myself, "Who am I to take that away from them?".
3) We in the church insist Christians have to obey the law 'love your neighbor as yourself', not for reason of justification, but because that's what saving faith has to look like. And rightfully so. But I refused to allow ceremonial law keepers to have the same belief that their law keeping also be understood as the required and expected expression of saving faith for those who have been justified by faith in Christ apart from works. I was holding an unfair double standard against them.
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A
agua.
Guest
Oky doky Jethro.
Do you have a source for this ? I mean without holding your view I don't see how we can claim that Acts 15 shows the Jewish push of justification by observances ended then.
Deborah13
Member
Two flocks become one in Christ.
Deborah13
Member
I think there are two different Jewish groups spoken of. The Acts 15:1 were a certain sect of Pharisees within the group of Messianic Jews who believed and followed the Jewish customs and that thought the gentiles should do as they do. The consul in Jerusalem solved the issue by saying the gentiles were not required to follow all these customs. Peter told them flat out that circumcision was not necessary for salvation as many gentiles had received the Holy Spirit. By the same token I don't see anywhere that it is forbidden to do so.
Then there where the other Jews, the Judaizers who were not believers in the Messiah. They were the ones trying to lead the Messianic Jews back to the temple sacrifices for justification.
It was God who gave the feast days, Passover being a shadow of Passing over from the world into the Kingdom of God. So I don't see in problem with a special rejoicing on these feast days. I think that as believers in Christ we have an added day being Resurrection day which fell on the day when the omar was waved as the firstfruit.
lowrab777
Member
Keeping them to justify yourself is exactly what the Jews did. Keeping them to obtain righteousness is exactly what the Jews did.
However If you are Christs why would you think that?, We know we are sinners and deserve death. Yet Jesus took our sins/ our sloppy mess of what we are, and he got his hands dirty and he cleaned up our mess so that we even us.. all of us could have a relationship with God through him. And as you engage in your relationship with your creator Why would you not want find out what his desire was for us and then try to accomplish that that as an action of gratitude for salvation not payment for salvation. And to do it as thanks giving to God because we can now do it under grace and not condemnation of the law. And where do you find out about Gods preference of interaction with his creation? Is it not in the old testament and the new testament combined? And as a thorough study of old and new how could you disregard the importance of the appointed times. And when do these scriptures take place any way?
Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
I can tell you scripture supports the fact that Jesus kept and observed these times and he will institute them when he returns.
Why not consider that,.... if they are to be kept at that time then,.... it might be a good idea to look into how significant they really are.
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lowrab777
Member
It must just be human nature. I mean I know it is. how does it go birds of the feather flock together. Its just sad sometimes... that other fellow Christians think that there is something wrong with me because I do these things. I grew up keeping the feasts and I love them they are so fun. I have so many child hood memories, I mean great and joyful memories of my youth. getting with family and friends and thinking that at those special times it was kinda like a family reunion that God told us he would come to,... I mean I was taught that he is my father and every body elses father too. It was allays about family to me and God and Christ are my family. I teach my children this stuff. The book of Joel begins with-- Joe 1:3 Tell ye your children of it, and let your children tell their children, and their children another generation.
And then goes into a detailed description of the fulfillment of the last four festivals. Trumpets/Atonement/ Tabernacles/the last great day it is all there. You know I think of them like this,....God created this stuff for us and because they please him. so I consider them a gift to me. Jesus himself said it.
Mar 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
Far be it from me take a gift from my creator and then disregard it as an unimportant thing. After all I have nothing to give him back so I could at least receive them and show him that I appreciate them and then my soul will delight in his gift to me and I believe that is what he wants me to give him, (my appreciation). To praise him with gradittude and humbleness. These festivals are many and involved, I can tell you they point to my conviction help me look forward to my salvation and they definitely help me with distraction from this world they give me hope and strengthen my faith and point to the first and second coming of Our savior. and I believe that is what they were designed to do.
lowrab777
Member
Of course Christ finish his work here as the Son Of Man, and Gods dayspring. But technically speaking there is still his work to be done. beside our commission to do his work here now, he still has to come back and then there is still another thousand years of work to be done yet. You might find it very interesting to at least try to study and understand the appointed times because they teach of the application of gods plan for our salvation and they teach of the things that are to come and the things he has yet to Finnish. Truly they are not all fulfilled entirely yet.