God's Kingdom

[NoahK]

Christ tells us to seek first the kingdom of heaven (a kingdom of righteousness). So how have you sought righteousness in your life?

 

[journeymanisnothing]

If we think of "Gods' Kingdom" as "where God dewlls among His people" then compare where God dewlt among His people in the the OT with what the NT says.

The sight was so terrifying that Moses said, “I am trembling with fear.” Heb.12:21 NIV

you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, Heb.12:22 NIV

How come we're not trembling with fear? Is it because we're not seeing what was behind "the veil in the temple among Israel." And even before that God "was hidden among them in a cloud."
We know these OT stories. The NT cites them often and tells us what many of them really mean.

 

[Hopeful 2]

I'm showing that God has always had power over death. Before He was crucified. He proved it after being crucified.

OK.

Cast away from where? Where exactly is the devil being cast away from?

Everyplace except the pit of Rev 9.

Paul is making the comparison between "walking in newness of life" with being "resurrected like Christ."

I can't agree.
Rom 6:3-4 is Paul stating exactly what happens when we are water baptized into Christ's death.

Jesus regarded people as either living or dead as He spoke to them... depending on whether they believed or not. <---Interpret
scripture this way --->not the way the world views the living and dead.

Yes, He did, on many occasions

Yeah,
Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. Lk.10:19 KJV
Immortalized now.

Immortalized, and so much more !

 

[NoahK]

I graduated from Glenbard East, (Lombard, IL), in '72.

Still in the Chicago area after all these years so I am familiar with where you were.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Still in the Chicago area after all these years so I am familiar with where you were.

If nothing else, it was a great place to learn how to drive.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Everyplace except the pit of Rev 9.

Rev.9 sounds like a -at century man describing militaey weapons and come from this world, which is bottomless pit that never be filled.

I can't agree.
Rom 6:3-4 is Paul stating exactly what happens when we are water baptized into Christ's death.

Water baptism is a symbolic confession by a believer of putting his own flesh to death and means nothing if he doesn't put his own flesh to death.

Yes, He did, on many occasions

So why not interpret "the living and the dead" His way?

Immortalized, and so much more !

People who are immortal now don't have to be made immortal later.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Think of the bottomless pit as a place of perpetual dissatisfaction, constant drudgery. Like when Solomon said,

Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity. Ecc.1:2

He then goes on to describe the eye never seeing enough with rivers running to an ocean never full.

The monotony of every day life leading to death in the end can very easily be considered a bottomless pit until judgment day. We even use it to describe things like gluttony (he's a bottomless pit.)

 

[Hopeful 2]

Rev.9 sounds like a -at century man describing militaey weapons and come from this world, which is bottomless pit that never be filled.

I'm not sure what to make of that ???

Water baptism is a symbolic confession by a believer of putting his own flesh to death and means nothing if he doesn't put his own flesh to death.

Water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins is the ACTUAL death and burial of the old man, and the resurrection of a new creature, from Jesus' grave.

So why not interpret "the living and the dead" His way?

Because that is not the only way.
We can look at death in a spiritual sense, and a physical sense.
What Jesus' friend Lazarus died, it wasn't to, or in sin.

People who are immortal now don't have to be made immortal later.

Agreed.
I shall never die, thanks be to God !

 

[journeymanisnothing]

I'm not sure what to make of that ???

A man from the 1st century would describe modern technology in terms he could relate to.

Water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins is the ACTUAL death and burial of the old man, and the resurrection of a new creature, from Jesus' grave.

The Jews thought the same about the ritual of circumcision. They were circumcised without being circumcised.
No one walks in a new life without a new spirit.

The 1st resurrection is when the Holy Spirit enters our lives,

that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Jn.3:6 KJV

not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, 1Pet.1:23 KJV

Because that is not the only way.
We can look at death in a spiritual sense, and a physical sense.

So look at it both ways. It only fits one way. Jesus told Martha her brother would "live again", meaning at the resurrection of the body, the 2nd resurrection.

What Jesus' friend Lazarus died, it wasn't to, or in sin.

Dying in sin is perishing in a state of unrepentance.
Dying to sin is putting sin to death in your life. Lazarus was obviously a believer who put sin out of his life by following Christs' Spirit walking in newness of life. Paul said,

Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? Rom.6:16 ESV

Agreed.
I shall never die, thanks be to God !

Then rule over all now in the life He has given you.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 2Pet.3:8 NIV

Reformed theology says Peter is wrong.

Reformed theology says "they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years" (Rev.20:4) can only mean one thousand years by earth time.

Peter cited the OT saying they forgot how God baptized the earth in water where only the believers survived.

Peter says when Christ appears not only the earth but the physical heavens in the created universe will be baptized in unquenchable fire and no unbeliever will survive it. There is no one thousands years of reigning over anyone who hasn't been previously "made alive by being born again."

 

[Hopeful 2]

A man from the 1st century would describe modern technology in terms he could relate to.

OK.
I think your typos made it hard to read.

The Jews thought the same about the ritual of circumcision. They were circumcised without being circumcised.
No one walks in a new life without a new spirit.

They didn't get a new spirit when they were circumcised.
We do.

The 1st resurrection is when the Holy Spirit enters our lives,

OK, I see you are calling our resurrection with Christ from "His" grave, via water baptism (Rom 6:3-4). a first resurrection.
I don't.
When Jesus returns I will be part of the first resurrection. (Rev 20:4-6)

that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Jn.3:6 KJV
not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, 1Pet.1:23 KJV

That makes God's off-spring able to live without sinning.
Thanks be to God !

So look at it both ways. It only fits one way. Jesus told Martha her brother would "live again", meaning at the resurrection of the body, the 2nd resurrection.

What was Lazarus' first resurrection ?

Dying in sin is perishing in a state of unrepentance.
Dying to sin is putting sin to death in your life. Lazarus was obviously a believer who put sin out of his life by following Christs' Spirit walking in newness of life.

I disagree, as Lazarus couldn't be baptized into Christ and into His death until after Jesus had actually died.
If he couldn't do that, then he couldn't be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life either.

Paul said,
Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? Rom.6:16 ESV

Thank God for the destruction of the old man, and the resurrection from Christ's grave of the new man !

Then rule over all now in the life He has given you.

I have been, for over fifteen years: thanks be to God.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

OK.
I think your typos made it hard to read.

Yes I didn't see the typos.

They didn't get a new spirit when they were circumcised.
We do.

Because they believed according to the law, circumcision had nothing to do with a persons' heart but cutting a piece of skin off. Paul said,

circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; Rom.2:29 KJV

Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, Deu.10:16 KJV

OK, I see you are calling our resurrection with Christ from "His" grave, via water baptism (Rom 6:3-4). a first resurrection.
I don't.

I can see you don't. Bread and wine symbolize the broken body and spilled blood of our Lord. Partaking of it is acknowledging a disciples willingness to suffer and die rather than deny Christ,

For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.1Cor.11:28 KJV

The Lords' body. His physical body...and also His church...partaking in his sufferings.

For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: 1Cor.11:23 KJV

When Jesus returns I will be part of the first resurrection. (Rev 20:4-6)

No ones body can be transformed unless he's made alive first.

That makes God's off-spring able to live without sinning. Thanks be to God !

Not only that. The Holy Spirit makes it possible to be Gods' off-spring. So unless a sinner has been born of His spirit before Jesus returns in Person that sinner will never be saved.

What was Lazarus' first resurrection ?

His faith in Jesus. He believed what Jesus said.

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, Jn.3:36 NIV

I disagree, as Lazarus couldn't be baptized into Christ and into His death until after Jesus had actually died.

He was baptized into Christ's death. All believers are. He simply couldn't be raised until after Jesus rose.

If he couldn't do that, then he couldn't be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life either.

Walking with our Savior is how Satans' house is plundered. The devil being unable to harm anyone doesn't mean he can't do anything. It only means nothing he does can harm a faithful believer.

no Thank God for the destruction of the old man, and the resurrection from Christ's grave of the new man !

Christ alone walked out of that tomb.

I have been, for over fifteen years: thanks be to God. Right

Well Jesus said the word He taught and gave for His disciples to preach would mankind in the last day.
If sinners don't repent now, they won't be transformed to an immortal body at the resurrection. They are judged according to a gospel they didn't believe during mankinds mortal existence on earth.

No finger pointing. Just believers who lives were "transformed by renewing their minds" and sowed spiritually what is reaped at resurrection. Unbelievers will remain mortal and perish.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

It's a funny thing. We all understand figures of speech which aren't meant to be literal but may never apply them to the scriptures.

For instance a news headline like, "It Shook The World." What could possibly shake our planet? It could only be big earthquake. In fact the biggest earthquake the world had ever experienced! Or maybe the biggest story ever reported on earth.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Yes I didn't see the typos.

The first line of your post 65 made no sense to me.

Because they believed according to the law, circumcision had nothing to do with a persons' heart but cutting a piece of skin off.

Right.

I can see you don't.

Why not try to convince me that calling our resurrection with Christ from "His" grave, via water baptism (Rom 6:3-4). is a first resurrection ?

No ones body can be transformed unless he's made alive first.

I think you are saying that having been baptized into Christ, and into His death and burial, we are made alive when we are "raised with Christ to walk in newness of life" (Rom 6:4)
I agree with that.
Especially when Rom 6:5 says..."For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:"
I know that my resurrection with Christ has already happened !

Not only that. The Holy Spirit makes it possible to be Gods' off-spring. So unless a sinner has been born of His spirit before Jesus returns in Person that sinner will never be saved.

What do you mean by "born of his spirit" ?

His faith in Jesus. He believed what Jesus said.

If his faith in Jesus was a first resurrection, and his freeing from the grave was a second resurrection, he will eventually have a third resurrection at the appearance of Jesus Christ with His angels.
I am not in total agreement with that.

He was baptized into Christ's death. All believers are. He simply couldn't be raised until after Jesus rose.

I heartily disagree. How could Lazarus be baptized into the death of someone who was still alive ?

Walking with our Savior is how Satans' house is plundered. The devil being unable to harm anyone doesn't mean he can't do anything. It only means nothing he does can harm a faithful believer.

That had nothing to do with my post. ???

Christ alone walked out of that tomb.

Yes, and by faith, we too have been made made new creatures with Him

Well Jesus said the word He taught and gave for His disciples to preach would.........mankind in the last day.
If sinners don't repent now, they won't be transformed to an immortal body at the resurrection. They are judged according to a gospel they didn't believe during mankind's mortal existence on earth.

Agreed.

No finger pointing. Just believers who lives were "transformed by renewing their minds" and sowed spiritually what is reaped at resurrection. Unbelievers will remain mortal and perish.

Agreed.
Thanks be to God for the path to walk to that renewal, and then to the final resurrection !

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Why not try to convince me that calling our resurrection with Christ from "His" grave, via water baptism (Rom 6:3-4). is a first resurrection ?

I'm trying, but you aren't hearing me because what people are being taught today in church (what I and you and anyone else who went to a "reformed denonimation") misunderstood what the law says and therefore misunderstood how Paul interpreted it.

I think you are saying that having been baptized into Christ, and into His death and burial, we are made alive when we are "raised with Christ to walk in newness of life" (Rom 6:4)
I agree with that.
Especially when Rom 6:5 says..."For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:"

Yes...if as our King...we follow Him into battle...against the flesh...killing sinful desire both ours and the sinner we portray Christ to overcoming it through truly loving even our enemies as the Messiah did.

I know that my resurrection with Christ has already happened !

So do I because I'm really beginning to see how "the war with the big bad beast" that theologians are waiting for is going on right before everyones' eyes.

What do you mean by "born of his spirit" ?

I mean when we hear the gospel and are sincere in repentance, the Holy Spirit will begin leading us by what the Son taught in our minds. His thoughts will become our thoughts.

HERE'S THE BEST EXAMPLE!!!

Let's say you and your son are great citizens, never break the law, always helping others etc etc etc.

A greedy gang of 5 men who hate you and you son have you both trapped and are going to kill you. Now...If you fought you'd win but the evil men would all be dead. In fact, your son could have easily killed them all by himself!!!!!

Would you fight, or show them mercy?

If his faith in Jesus was a first resurrection, and his freeing from the grave was a second resurrection, he will eventually have a third resurrection at the appearance of Jesus Christ with His angels.
I am not in total agreement with that.

Lazarus shouldn't be used as a "text example" of our bodily resurrection because "the text" isn't about saints being raised all together with glorified bodies after Christ returns.

Our Lord raised Lazarus because his sisters and others were crying at his loss. They believed in Jesus, but even people who believe in Him can be overcome by grief and over time begin to lose faith. It happens all the time.
Our Savior wept because although we're saddened our loved ones are no longer here, we now know they're absent from us but with our Father and we should rejoice in that,

Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints. Psa.155:16 KJV

I bet when Lazarus got unwrapped he had a frown on his face.

I heartily disagree. How could Lazarus be baptized into the death of someone who was still alive ?

"Baptized into Christ" means follow His example for our flesh to die,

Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; 1Pet.4:1 KJV

(In other words, there is no sin in wanting the best for all men, which is to know the live of God, patient towards all men even when others are hostile. That's mercy.

That had nothing to do with my post. ???

Not when you think after Jesus returns for all to see there's another 1000 years of unsaved people walking around.

Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. [/b{Heb.12:4 KJV

How does going to battle against sin spill your blood? When you can answer this sensibly you will understand the gospel perfectly.

Yes, and by faith, we too have been made made new creatures with Him

Yes and therefore we aren't really being "made new" at the end of all time. What was "previously made new" is simply transformed at the end of all time. All will see it later, but God now sees us as shining.

Agreed.

Agreed.
Thanks be to God for the path to walk to that renewal, and then to the final resurrection !

Ok. Then why do you think Jesus is returning to teach unsaved people how to know Him? He already did that.

 

[Hopeful 2]

I'm trying, but you aren't hearing me because what people are being taught today in church (what I and you and anyone else who went to a "reformed denonimation") misunderstood what the law says and therefore misunderstood how Paul interpreted it.

It is written..."But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection." (Rev 20:5)
The SECOND resurrection happens thousand years later.
Those writers were unaware of your revelation.

Yes...if as our King...we follow Him into battle...against the flesh...killing sinful desire both ours and the sinner we portray Christ to overcoming it through truly loving even our enemies as the Messiah did.

So do I because I'm really beginning to see how "the war with the big bad beast" that theologians are waiting for is going on right before everyones' eyes.

I mean when we hear the gospel and are sincere in repentance, the Holy Spirit will begin leading us by what the Son taught in our minds. His thoughts will become our thoughts.

HERE'S THE BEST EXAMPLE!!!

Let's say you and your son are great citizens, never break the law, always helping others etc etc etc.

A greedy gang of 5 men who hate you and you son have you both trapped and are going to kill you. Now...If you fought you'd win but the evil men would all be dead. In fact, your son could have easily killed them all by himself!!!!!

Would you fight, or show them mercy?

Lazarus shouldn't be used as a "text example" of our bodily resurrection because "the text" isn't about saints being raised all together with glorified bodies after Christ returns.

Our Lord raised Lazarus because his sisters and others were crying at his loss. They believed in Jesus, but even people who believe in Him can be overcome by grief and over time begin to lose faith. It happens all the time.
Our Savior wept because although we're saddened our loved ones are no longer here, we now know they're absent from us but with our Father and we should rejoice in that,

Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints. Psa.155:16 KJV

I bet when Lazarus got unwrapped he had a frown on his face.

"Baptized into Christ" means follow His example for our flesh to die,

Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; 1Pet.4:1 KJV

(In other words, there is no sin in wanting the best for all men, which is to know the live of God, patient towards all men even when others are hostile. That's mercy.

Not when you think after Jesus returns for all to see there's another 1000 years of unsaved people walking around.

Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. [/b{Heb.12:4 KJV

How does going to battle against sin spill your blood? When you can answer this sensibly you will understand the gospel perfectly.

Yes and therefore we aren't really being "made new" at the end of all time. What was "previously made new" is simply transformed at the end of all time. All will see it later, but God now sees us as shining.


Ok. Then why do you think Jesus is returning to teach unsaved people how to know Him? He already did that.

I don't think that.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

It is written..."But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

They didn't "live again" because people aren't born "spiritually dead" into this world. All children know God. We all lose sight of Him through the cares of this world,

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. Jn.17:3

To know Him by our own experiences. It becomes obvious when we do as our Teacher commanded and face adversity for it,

That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; Phil.3:10

This is the first resurrection." (Rev 20:5)

The 1st resurrection cannot be the physical body.

The SECOND resurrection happens thousand years later.

But not 1 (one) thousand consecutive human years because His reign ends when death ends. It's not necessary to reign over flesh people after Jesus comes because all flesh is destroyed. Death for anyone left no linger exists.

Those writers were unaware of your revelation.

Do you mean the reformers, or the Bible writers?

I don't think that.

You don't believe Jesus is coming back for one (1) thousand unbroken years to reign? Right?

 

[Josef]

Hey All,
Did any of you consider that baptism is not actually about you or me?
We were born again the moment we believed in Jesus.
We did not die physically.
We all experienced the first birth through water.
(The amniotic fluid is commonly referred to as "water ")
When we believed, we experienced the second birth of the Spirit.

John 3:5-6 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

So now as a believers, we have two natures waring for dominance in our life.
But we have this new relationship with Jesus.
And we are guided now by the Holy Spirit into all truth.

As new believers, we want to learn more about Jesus and start to build our relationship with Him.
As believers, one of our acts of obedience to God is to be baptized.
As believers, we come to understand that we need to do this.
Only believers come to this understanding.
So belief is the cause of baptism.
Baptism does not cause belief.
Baptism is an act of obedience after we believe.
Therefore belief always has to precede baptism.

But baptism does not actually kill our flesh.
The sin nature is still at war with the new creature we have become after baptism.
So why do we get baptized?

Baptism is a relationship builder.
Jesus died for me to buy my salvation.
He rose from the dead so I would know the salvation is real.
But I have no way of understanding what that truly means without dying myself.
But through baptism ( water immersion ), I do have a way.
What Jesus went through physically, I can go through symbolically.
Baptism helps me understand how much love Jesus has towards me.

John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Through baptism, I can begin to understand what this verse means.
Through baptism I start to understand Jesus' love for me.

So baptism is not about you or me.
It is not about completing the gift of salvation.

It is about growing our relationship with Jesus.
I become closer with Jesus because I have (after baptism) a greater understanding of what Jesus did for me on that cross.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Water baptism signifies the death of our flesh nature,

And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. Make thee an ark of gopher wood Gen.6:13-14

Destroy all the men of flesh but not the man who followed the Spirits leading.

And later,

all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 1Cor.10:2

They followed God shrouded in a cloud through water (a living Christ into what should be death) and came out still living on the ither side. The men of only flesh perished. Peter said,

For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 2Pet.3:5

He's warning believers to be ready for our Lords' 2nd appearing to all humanity because it's a baptism of fire that leaves no unsaved alive.

 

[Hopeful 2]

They didn't "live again" because people aren't born "spiritually dead" into this world. All children know God. We all lose sight of Him through the cares of this world,

They didn't live again because they died as sinners.

The 1st resurrection cannot be the physical body.

If you are referring to the body that was raised from Christ's grave to walk in newness of life, (which you previously said was the first resurrection), then what kind of body did we have ?
Or are you now calling the resurrection at the return of Christ the "first" resurrection ?

But not 1 (one) thousand consecutive human years because His reign ends when death ends. It's not necessary to reign over flesh people after Jesus comes because all flesh is destroyed. Death for anyone left no linger exists.

If scripture says a thousand years, why do you disagree ?

Do you mean the reformers, or the Bible writers?

The writers.
They called the time of Jesus' return the "first" resurrection.

You don't believe Jesus is coming back for one (1) thousand unbroken years to reign?

He is coming back to reign forever.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hey All,
Did any of you consider that baptism is not actually about you or me?
We were born again the moment we believed in Jesus.
We did not die physically.
We all experienced the first birth through water.
(The amniotic fluid is commonly referred to as "water ")
When we believed, we experienced the second birth of the Spirit.

John 3:5-6 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

So now as a believers, we have two natures waring for dominance in our life.

The only reason one might think they had two natures, is because they didn't beleive what Paul said happened at the baptism you seem to minimize.
"Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." (Rom 6:6)
That old man's nature was destroyed with the rest of the vessel.
It is written..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2 Cor 5:17)

But we have this new relationship with Jesus.
And we are guided now by the Holy Spirit into all truth.
As new believers, we want to learn more about Jesus and start to build our relationship with Him.
As believers, one of our acts of obedience to God is to be baptized.

Then we do know who baptism is about !

As believers, we come to understand that we need to do this.
Only believers come to this understanding.
So belief is the cause of baptism.
Baptism does not cause belief.
Baptism is an act of obedience after we believe.
Therefore belief always has to precede baptism.

Agreed.
I can't remember ever hearing anyone say that baptism will cause belief.
Do you have an example of such a false preacher ?

But baptism does not actually kill our flesh.
The sin nature is still at war with the new creature we have become after baptism.

You are zig-zagging.
First it isn't important, then it is: and now it isn't again.
If Paul was an apostle, and a prophet, his Romans 6 words are true...and the old man WAS destroyed.

So why do we get baptized?

For the remission of past sins, (Acts 2:38), and the destruction of the old man. (Rom 6:6), with his affections and lusts. "And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. (Gal 5:24)

Baptism is a relationship builder.
Jesus died for me to buy my salvation.

OK, (Acts 2:38, 22:16)

He rose from the dead so I would know the salvation is real.

OK.

But I have no way of understanding what that truly means without dying myself.

I disagree, as I needed to understand it before I submitted to it.

But through baptism ( water immersion ), I do have a way.
What Jesus went through physically, I can go through symbolically.

Your "symbolically" denies you the "actual" destruction of the old man afforded you by immersion into Christ and into His death and burial. (Rom 6:3-6)
Verse 7 is the result of that actuality..."For he that is dead is freed from sin."
Your "symbolically" will never accomplish that freedom.

Baptism helps me understand how much love Jesus has towards me.
John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Through baptism, I can begin to understand what this verse means.
Through baptism I start to understand Jesus' love for me.
So baptism is not about you or me.
It is not about completing the gift of salvation.
It is about growing our relationship with Jesus.
I become closer with Jesus because I have (after baptism) a greater understanding of what Jesus did for me on that cross.

Baptism can't make you a believer, but it CAN do all of that ???