Good works & a few simple Questions.

[Kidron]

Lets say you are not a Christian.
NOT, a Christian.
But you are a person who is interested in your fellow man.
You visit the sick in hospitals, you give to the poor frequently, you try to obey the golden rule, you volunteer as a substitute 1st grade teacher, you help elderly people unload their food buggies into their cars when you go shopping for food.....and... and you've never watched an "R" rated movie, used profanity, or "cheated" on your marriage........AND, you've never created bigotry in your kids regarding other races.

Then you died unexpectedly and went to hell faster then you can blink.

So, why did that happen?
Thats the first question.

The second question, is.....if all those works, those good works, could not keep you out of hell as an unbeliever, then how could they possibly help you keep your salvation, if you were a believer?

and lastly....Not any of those good works by themselves attain Heaven for you.... so, how would they keep you out of heaven, if you didnt do them after you are saved?

 

[clark thompson]

We all deserve to go to hell, I once told my buddy that even if we were perfect it would not be get us into heaven because we still do not know the Lord who is there.

 

[Qchan]

Lets say you are not a Christian.
NOT, a Christian.
But you are a person who is interested in your fellow man.
You visit the sick in hospitals, you give to the poor frequently, you try to obey the golden rule, you volunteer as a substitute 1st grade teacher, you help elderly people unload their food buggies into their cars when you go shopping for food.....and... and you've never watched an "R" rated movie, used profanity, or "cheated" on your marriage........AND, you've never created bigotry in your kids regarding other races.

Then you died unexpectedly and went to hell faster then you can blink.

So, why did that happen?
Thats the first question.

The second question, is.....if all those works, those good works, could not keep you out of hell as an unbeliever, then how could they possibly help you keep your salvation, if you were a believer?

and lastly....Not any of those good works by themselves attain Heaven for you.... so, how would they keep you out of heaven, if you didnt do them after you are saved?

Let me ask you this.
What is hell? Find me scriptures that plainly say, "Hell is [this]". Something tells me that you'll have some trouble.

 

[Kidron]

Let me ask you this.
What is hell? Find me scriptures that plainly say, "Hell is [this]". Something tells me that you'll have some trouble.

No trouble at all.
Mark 9:43-45
You could start there.
And keep in mind that hell is not the "fire".
Hell is the holding tank.
The Lake of fire, is the idea of the punishment that you are misdescribing as "hell".

 

[Jethro Bodine]

.....if all those works, those good works, could not keep you out of hell as an unbeliever, then how could they possibly help you keep your salvation, if you were a believer?

For the believer they indicate faith in God's forgiveness. That is the ONLY way they 'help' you keep your salvation. They simply indicate that you really do have the faith in Christ that saves. That's all. Nothing more. I have to emphasize that because chances are good you will continue to hear the argument as an argument for 'works save'. Just watch folks.

and lastly....Not any of those good works by themselves attain Heaven for you.... so, how would they keep you out of heaven, if you didnt do them after you are saved?

If we didn't do them after salvation then what's the point of your question?



6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything (toward justification--see context), but faith (is what counts towards justification) working through love." (Galatians 5:6 NASB parenthesis mine)

The faith that saves is the faith that works. Not because works justify, but because by the nature of what it means to 'have faith in Christ' that is what 'having faith in Christ' does--it causes the impulse to love to rise up in the person who have themselves received the love of God in the forgiveness of their sins.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Lets say you are not a Christian.
NOT, a Christian.
But you are a person who is interested in your fellow man.
You visit the sick in hospitals, you give to the poor frequently, you try to obey the golden rule, you volunteer as a substitute 1st grade teacher, you help elderly people unload their food buggies into their cars when you go shopping for food.....and... and you've never watched an "R" rated movie, used profanity, or "cheated" on your marriage........AND, you've never created bigotry in your kids regarding other races.

Then you died unexpectedly and went to hell faster then you can blink.

So, why did that happen?
Thats the first question.

Because everything that person did was to enhance their own glory. They did none of it in God's name. They never physically nor mentally prostrated themselves in worship before God.

The second question, is.....if all those works, those good works, could not keep you out of hell as an unbeliever, then how could they possibly help you keep your salvation, if you were a believer?

They will not keep you out of Hell. i.e.
Everything I've done since the first day of 1990 was done for the glory of God and are worthy to note, maybe, for the instruction of others but they mean, absolutely, nothing towards my Eternal Safety. Most of deeds I speak of are not known that I and my wife did them except on the count and record by God.

If I and Deeter had done these things for our benefit, they would have counted for nothing in the eye of God.

and lastly....Not any of those good works by themselves attain Heaven for you.... so, how would they keep you out of heaven, if you didn't do them after you are saved?

Not doing good works will not keep you from entering Heaven. The lack of or the performance of might affect your position in Heaven but I'm not certain about that because God knows why we do or why we don't better than we know ourselves.

 

[iLOVE]

When you accept Jesus Christ, you accept Jesus Christ through faith. By grace are you save through faith. Now you are to live your life by faith. Two different things. Trusting Christ for salvation is receiving a gift. Living by faith is doing a work. That is why the bible says in James 2 faith without works is dead. He is not talking about getting to Heaven, but to get Heaven down to you. Accepting Christ as your savior takes you to Heaven. Living by faith brings Heaven to you.

 

[Qchan]

No trouble at all.
Mark 9:43-45
You could start there.
And keep in mind that hell is not the "fire".
Hell is the holding tank.
The Lake of fire, is the idea of the punishment that you are misdescribing as "hell".

I asked you to provide a scripture that says "hell is [this]". You haven't provided such a scripture.

Also, you're describing hell as a holding tank. Holding tank for what? The dead? What is hell?

 

[iLOVE]

When you accept Jesus Christ, you accept Jesus Christ through faith. By grace are you save through faith. Now you are to live your life by faith. Two different things. Trusting Christ for salvation is receiving a gift. Living by faith is doing a work. That is why the bible says in James 2 faith without works is dead. He is not talking about getting to Heaven, but to get Heaven down to you. Accepting Christ as your savior takes you to Heaven. Living by faith brings Heaven to you.

Faith is the master key! It will open every door. It will access every promises. Faith is what's needed to get you to the other side. Bible belief is only dependent on the word of God. I believe it first - then I will speak it - and I believe whatever I speak is going to come to pass. To get faith to work for you, you must bring your conversation, your thinking, and your believing in line with your faith. And your faith saying it's already done. Because nothing can stand against the word of God!

Levels of faith: (many other examples in the bible)
Great faith - Matthew 8:5-10
Unfeigned faith - II Timothy 1:5
Wavering faith - James 1:5-7
Perfect faith - James 2:22
Rich faith - James 2:5
Full of faith - Acts 6:1-5
Little Faith - Matthew 6:25-34, Matthew 14:25-31
No faith - Mark 4:35-40


Things may not be a fact at the time, but call things that be not as though they were! To get heaven to come to earth you must agree with it. Your faith must say it is already done. Truth will change facts! Faith only says what God says. Say what you want to see instead of what you currently see.

Faith gives you access to grace. The whole point of faith is to bring something from the invisible realm around to the visible realm.

 

[iLOVE]

Faith is the master key! It will open every door. It will access every promises. Faith is what's needed to get you to the other side. Bible belief is only dependent on the word of God. I believe it first - then I will speak it - and I believe whatever I speak is going to come to pass. To get faith to work for you, you must bring your conversation, your thinking, and your believing in line with your faith. And your faith saying it's already done. Because nothing can stand against the word of God!

Levels of faith: (many other examples in the bible)
Great faith - Matthew 8:5-10
Unfeigned faith - II Timothy 1:5
Wavering faith - James 1:5-7
Perfect faith - James 2:22
Rich faith - James 2:5
Full of faith - Acts 6:1-5
Little Faith - Matthew 6:25-34, Matthew 14:25-31
No faith - Mark 4:35-40


Things may not be a fact at the time, but call things that be not as though they were! To get heaven to come to earth you must agree with it. Your faith must say it is already done. Truth will change facts! Faith only says what God says. Say what you want to see instead of what you currently see.

Faith gives you access to grace. The whole point of faith is to bring something from the invisible realm around to the visible realm.

All of the heroes mentioned in Hebrews 11 had flaws...but their faith have made them heroes of the faith and are now in "The Hall Of Faith.

The author of Hebrews 11:38 NKJV tells us that there are Christians today that are in the second mile...and the world is not worthy of them! They only consider what God has said!

 

[Edward]

I asked you to provide a scripture that says "hell is [this]". You haven't provided such a scripture.

Also, you're describing hell as a holding tank. Holding tank for what? The dead? What is hell?

I do not understand your confusion here brother. He posted the scripture and it was pretty clear.

43 iAnd if thy hand ||offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:/

...to go into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched...
...having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire which shall never be quenched./

So hell contains a fire which shall never be quenched. That it does not contain the specific language that you seek does not mean that there is no hell. I'm not sure why you require such specific language and seemingly outright reject anything short of it?

How are these verses not giving the information that you seek?

 

[Qchan]

I do not understand your confusion here brother. He posted the scripture and it was pretty clear.

43 iAnd if thy hand ||offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:/

...to go into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched...
...having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire which shall never be quenched./

So hell contains a fire which shall never be quenched. That it does not contain the specific language that you seek does not mean that there is no hell. I'm not sure why you require such specific language and seemingly outright reject anything short of it?

How are these verses not giving the information that you seek?

Ok. He doesn't believe hell is a place of eternal fire. However, you do. So, lets separate his opinions from yours and I'll just speak to you directly on this point.

Before we begin, I want you to know the question I asked him wasn't for you. So, I'm not going to direct your answer to it. Instead, I'm going to debate with you about hell and God's character. Understand that the concept of hell (eternal fiery damnation) is contrary to God's character.

1) God doesn't lie - Titus 1:2
2) God will not accuse someone forever - Psalms 103:9 & Isaiah 57:16
3) God will not harbor his anger forever - Psalms 103:9 & Isaiah 57:16 & Psalms 30:5
4) God is merciful - Deut 4:31
5) God is loving - John 4:8
6) God is peaceful - Heb 13:20
7) God loves his enemies - Luke 6:35 & 1 Cor 13
8) God is kind to those who are unthankful and evil - Luke 6:35
9) God does not cast people off forever - Lam 3:31
10) God does not keep a record of the wrong any one did forever - 1 Corn 13:5
11) God is love - 1 John 4:8 & 1 Cor 13
12) God is kind - 1 John 4:8 & 1 Cor 13
13) God is patient - 1 John 4:8 & 1 Cor 13
14) God does not envy - 1 John 4:8 & 1 Cor 13
15) God does not boast - 1 John 4:8 & 1 Cor 13
16) God is not self seeking - 1 John 4:8 & 1 Cor 13
17) God is not prideful - 1 John 4:8 & 1 Cor 13
18) God is not easily angered - 1 John 4:8 & 1 Cor 13
19) God will never fail in anything he attempts to do - 1 John 4:8 & 1 Cor 13
20) God is compassionate - 1 John 4:8 & 1 Cor 13
21) God is gentle (to be considerate and kindly in disposition, not harsh or severe and easily managed or handled.) - 1 John 4:8 & 1 Cor 13

If God does not accuse people forever, does not harbor his anger forever, does not cast people off forever, does not keep a record of the wrong anyone did forever and loves his enemies, then how can hell exist? For hell to exist, that means God would accuse people forever, harbor his anger forever, cast people off forever, keep a record of the wrong anyone has done forever.

Torturing someone in a fiery pit forever isn't how you love someone. The concept of hell contradicts scripture and God's nature.

 

[Edward]

Ok. He doesn't believe hell is a place of eternal fire. However, you do. So, lets separate his opinions from yours and I'll just speak to you directly on this point...

If God does not accuse people forever, does not harbor his anger forever, does not cast people off forever, does not keep a record of the wrong anyone did forever and loves his enemies, then how can hell exist? For hell to exist, that means God would accuse people forever, harbor his anger forever, cast people off forever, keep a record of the wrong anyone has done forever.

Torturing someone in a fiery pit forever isn't how you love someone. The concept of hell contradicts scripture and God's nature.

You don't seem to be taking everything into account. You take a lot into account though and that's a good sign, so let's continue. How can hell exist when God says/is all those things you posted? Easy, He said it does in scripture. You either believe it or you don't. God doesn't contradict Himself brother, it's just that at times, we fail to understand and comprehend.

So even though God is love, and merciful, compassionate, longsuffering and so forth, if He is to give us a free will so that we can choose...He couldn't then let everyone off the hook to defend His nature. He's also a just God, which I didn't see in your list.

Hell was originally created for the devil and his angels (Just). But when man used his own free will to turn from God, is He now supposed to take away their free will to choose and force them into eternal life to show you what a good God He is?

Go to BibleGateway and do a word search for hell in the bible. It's there. It's real. "To go into hell, into the fire...Is that not describing that hell contains a fire? Uhhh, I think it does brother.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I asked you to provide a scripture that says "hell is [this]". You haven't provided such a scripture.

Also, you're describing hell as a holding tank. Holding tank for what? The dead? What is hell?

Qchan,
He is right, Hell is not the Lake of Fire, also known as the Abyss. Hell is where the angels/demons that were not already cast into the Lake of Fire reside. That is also where the Lost Man resides the instant he or she dies the first death. I would prefer not to post the scriptures relevant to this issue because of the number of them. You can easily find them by googling "Hell+nave's" without the quotes. It is an enlightening study but it is not a fiften minute read.

 

[Edward]

Ok. He doesn't believe hell is a place of eternal fire. However, you do. So, lets separate his opinions from yours and I'll just speak to you directly on this point.

Before we begin, I want you to know the question I asked him wasn't for you. So, I'm not going to direct your answer to it. Instead, I'm going to debate with you about hell and God's character. Understand that the concept of hell (eternal fiery damnation) is contrary to God's character.

1) God doesn't lie - Titus 1:2
2) God will not accuse someone forever - Psalms 103:9 & Isaiah 57:16
3) God will not harbor his anger forever - Psalms 103:9 & Isaiah 57:16 & Psalms 30:5
4) God is merciful - Deut 4:31
5) God is loving - John 4:8
6) God is peaceful - Heb 13:20
7) God loves his enemies - Luke 6:35 & 1 Cor 13
8) God is kind to those who are unthankful and evil - Luke 6:35
9) God does not cast people off forever - Lam 3:31
10) God does not keep a record of the wrong any one did forever - 1 Corn 13:5
11) God is love - 1 John 4:8 & 1 Cor 13
12) God is kind - 1 John 4:8 & 1 Cor 13
13) God is patient - 1 John 4:8 & 1 Cor 13
14) God does not envy - 1 John 4:8 & 1 Cor 13
15) God does not boast - 1 John 4:8 & 1 Cor 13
16) God is not self seeking - 1 John 4:8 & 1 Cor 13
17) God is not prideful - 1 John 4:8 & 1 Cor 13
18) God is not easily angered - 1 John 4:8 & 1 Cor 13
19) God will never fail in anything he attempts to do - 1 John 4:8 & 1 Cor 13
20) God is compassionate - 1 John 4:8 & 1 Cor 13
21) God is gentle (to be considerate and kindly in disposition, not harsh or severe and easily managed or handled.) - 1 John 4:8 & 1 Cor 13

If God does not accuse people forever, does not harbor his anger forever, does not cast people off forever, does not keep a record of the wrong anyone did forever and loves his enemies, then how can hell exist? For hell to exist, that means God would accuse people forever, harbor his anger forever, cast people off forever, keep a record of the wrong anyone has done forever.

Torturing someone in a fiery pit forever isn't how you love someone. The concept of hell contradicts scripture and God's nature.

Brother, does man have accountability? From the way you talk, its as if you believe that we can do whatever we want to, and God has to accept it because He's so good, or something like that. Where does mans accountability fit into this?

 

[Qchan]

You don't seem to be taking everything into account. You take a lot into account though and that's a good sign, so let's continue. How can hell exist when God says/is all those things you posted? Easy, He said it does in scripture. You either believe it or you don't. God doesn't contradict Himself brother, it's just that at times, we fail to understand and comprehend.

So you say, my friend. However, you have no scriptures to back it up. Clearly, you see the contradiction. God cannot cast people off to hell forever if the bible says he will not do that. Remember, the bible doesn't contradict itself.

What I recommend, if you're confused, is to use either a better translation of the bible or refer to the original language the bible was written in.

So even though God is love, and merciful, compassionate, longsuffering and so forth, if He is to give us a free will so that we can choose...He couldn't then let everyone off the hook to defend His nature. He's also a just God, which I didn't see in your list.

Hell was originally created for the devil and his angels (Just). But when man used his own free will to turn from God, is He now supposed to take away their free will to choose and force them into eternal life to show you what a good God He is?

Go to BibleGateway and do a word search for hell in the bible. It's there. It's real. "To go into hell, into the fire...Is that not describing that hell contains a fire? Uhhh, I think it does brother.

I don't need to go to BibleGateway to do a word search. I search the Hebrew and Greek.
Understand, "hell" is loosely translated from multiple words that do not all mean the same thing.

Gehenna
Tartarus
Hades
Sheol

These are the words that have been mistranslated to hell. Hades and Sheol mean the same thing. They both mean "The grave". Tartarus appears to be the bottomless pit in which the fallen angels from Noah's time were imprisoned. Gehenna was a dump located outside of Jerusalem. Understand, that Gehenna is the Greek word for the Hebrew Tophet. Tophet and Gehenna are the same place. Yet, if you do a search for Tophet in the old testament, you'll see that it has nothing to do with the concept of hell at all.

Hell is an unbiblical, satanic and twisted pagan concept introduced into the Latin Catholic Vulgate by Saint Jerome, inspired by the teachings of Saint Augustine of Hippo. Here are a few sources I highly recommend you read:
http://www.mercifultruth.com/the-real-hell.html
http://www.vision.org/visionmedia/origin-of-hell/41044.aspx

 

[Qchan]

Qchan,
He is right, Hell is not the Lake of Fire, also known as the Abyss. Hell is where the angels/demons that were not already cast into the Lake of Fire reside. That is also where the Lost Man resides the instant he or she dies the first death. I would prefer not to post the scriptures relevant to this issue because of the number of them. You can easily find them by googling "Hell+nave's" without the quotes. It is an enlightening study but it is not a fiften minute read.

I disagree. I'd rather have you post scriptures to what you're saying, because you're saying quite a bit.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I disagree. I'd rather have you post scriptures to what you're saying, because you're saying quite a bit.

Now, I was not sharp with you and your being sharp with me will gain neither of us any points. If I copy and paste the scripture references it is over twenty thousand characters and for that reason I gave you the exact search to use.

Now, what are you saying to me? You're to good to do a google search? You demand I do the work for you? Brother, in another section where the emphasis is on studying, I am posting them, a little at a time.
http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...is-the-second-death.59318/page-7#post-1081536 and you are welcome to jump in there if you wish to do the work.

 

[JLB]

Lets say you are not a Christian.
NOT, a Christian.
But you are a person who is interested in your fellow man.
You visit the sick in hospitals, you give to the poor frequently, you try to obey the golden rule, you volunteer as a substitute 1st grade teacher, you help elderly people unload their food buggies into their cars when you go shopping for food.....and... and you've never watched an "R" rated movie, used profanity, or "cheated" on your marriage........AND, you've never created bigotry in your kids regarding other races.

Then you died unexpectedly and went to hell faster then you can blink.

So, why did that happen?
Thats the first question.

The second question, is.....if all those works, those good works, could not keep you out of hell as an unbeliever, then how could they possibly help you keep your salvation, if you were a believer?

and lastly....Not any of those good works by themselves attain Heaven for you.... so, how would they keep you out of heaven, if you didnt do them after you are saved?

Answer to question 1 : because your spirit did not have the spirit of Christ in it to bring that person to be with the Lord.


Because salvation is not by good works but rather obedience to the Gospel.

 

[Qchan]

Now, I was not sharp with you and your being sharp with me will gain neither of us any points. If I copy and paste the scripture references it is over twenty thousand characters and for that reason I gave you the exact search to use.

Now, what are you saying to me? You're to good to do a google search? You demand I do the work for you? Brother, in another section where the emphasis is on studying, I am posting them, a little at a time.
http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...is-the-second-death.59318/page-7#post-1081536 and you are welcome to jump in there if you wish to do the work.

Lets stop you first.
Take a deep breath, my friend. My words are not meant to offend you. Understand that this is all just text, and text has no emotion. This is why we have emoticons.
So, if my words seem rather cold, understand that its impossible for me to apply emotion to them, OK?

1) When I reference the bible, the bible is specific enough that I wouldn't need 20,000 characters. I'm confident that you can reduce the verse you wish to quote into something manageable.

2) I'm not too sure what good it would do to click your link just to understand the point you're trying to get across. Upon first glance, I still don't understand. So, I suppose at this point, I'll just assume you want to abandon your points since you feel others should research your points. That's not a really good way of convincing someone in a debate :D