Edward
2024 Supporter
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Good works & a few simple Questions.
- Thread starter Kidron
- Start date
Jesus sentenced these on His left hand into the everlasting fire for everlasting punishment.
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41
Everlasting fire; Everlasting punishment.
Call it what you want, hell, Gehenna, Tartarus, it doesn't matter.
Its fire that is everlasting and people will be sentenced there.
JLB
It doesn't matter what name you call it, Jesus sentences them to the everlasting fires....
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41
Everlasting fire; Everlasting punishment.
Its fire that is everlasting and people will be sentenced there.
JLB
B
Brother Mike
Guest
The first question would be..... Why did Qchan lie to me, He told me there would be no hell.......... Aggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
R
Runner
Guest
There are large and well-established segments of Christianity that disagree to one degree or another with the premises of the original post. Christian universalists would believe the woman isn’t going to hell at all. Others would believe she could have been a Christian without an explicit “acceptance” of Jesus. Many Christians don’t believe salvation occurs in an instant or that once saved is necessarily always saved. For many, “faith” is a lifelong process that includes works; works are the objective manifestation of faith. Still others believe salvation actually requires faith plus works done in faith. There are other permutations I haven’t touched upon, not to mention process theology, open theology and other exotic variants.
While I have my understanding, which is consistent with the statement of belief for this site, I am not prepared to say that everyone who doesn’t share my understanding is wrong and destined for hell. I am somewhat troubled by the fact that so many of the divisive verses are found in one unique Gospel (John). Moreover, for many doctrines it is extremely difficult to connect all the dots of the Bible and arrive at a definitive answer in the way that one might work a mathematical problem, which is why there are so many different denominations (41,000 according to the Center for the Study of Global Christianity) and understandings.
The more you dive into serious Bible studies, the more you realize that a simplistic, wooden reading can send you off on a tangent. I have this experience all the time in the law. I will read the statutes and regulations for some area in which I seldom practice, such as tax or immigration, and think they are perfectly clear. I will then discover, upon speaking to a specialist, that my understanding was wildly off-base and not the way the law actually works at all. I would have made a fool of myself (and committed malpractice) if I had advised a client on the basis of my uninformed understanding.
It seems to me that we Christians spend an inordinate amount of time debating with other Christians about their understandings or patting ourselves on the back about how correct we are. We love it; it’s way more fun, and way easier, than feeding the poor or helping the homeless. The “other” Christian Forums is divided into a bewildering array of subforums in a completely futile effort to keep inter-denominational and even intra-denominational feuds from breaking out.
It seems to me that the best we can do is find a landing spot that best fits our understanding and then focus on our relationship with God and our Christian walk. It may be that some who think they are Christians are so far off-base that they actually are on the road to hell, but it’s not up to me to separate the wheat from the chaff. They certainly aren’t, I am confident, “everyone who doesn’t share my precise view of faith, works, salvation and hell.” I would find it incongruous to take the position (as I do) that Jesus’ message is radically liberating, then spend large portions of my time arguing with other Christians about their definition of faith or whether they have correctly calculated how many angels can dance on the head of a pin (112,483 - so if your calculation is different, you are simply WRONG!!!).
On other threads, there has been discussion as to how an overemphasis on one’s “loathsomeness” can suck the joy out of the Christian walk. It seems to me that an overemphasis on one’s “theological superiority” vis-à-vis those who don’t believe the same way can do the same thing. Jesus did indeed say that He will say to many who purported to act in His name, “I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity” (Matthew 7:23). I believe the real message in this verse is for each of us to “continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling” (Philippians 2:12), to do our best to make sure that we aren’t among those whom Jesus tells to depart. I don’t believe the verse is a license for us to decide which of our fellow Christians fall into this category.
My guess would be that those who live their lives thinking that “faith plus works done in faith” are required for salvation, or that “faith is a lifelong process defined by works,” are on safe ground. I really can’t see how this would rob their Christian walk of joy, praise and thanksgiving; quite the contrary, actually. The only ones I think would be seriously off-base would be those (if there are any within Christendom) who actually think they are earning salvation through works, as though at some point they will be “good enough” to enter God’s holy kingdom, since this is contrary to the core Christian message, and those who think faith is a license do whatever they want (a position thoroughly condemned in Romans).
While I have my understanding, which is consistent with the statement of belief for this site, I am not prepared to say that everyone who doesn’t share my understanding is wrong and destined for hell. I am somewhat troubled by the fact that so many of the divisive verses are found in one unique Gospel (John). Moreover, for many doctrines it is extremely difficult to connect all the dots of the Bible and arrive at a definitive answer in the way that one might work a mathematical problem, which is why there are so many different denominations (41,000 according to the Center for the Study of Global Christianity) and understandings.
The more you dive into serious Bible studies, the more you realize that a simplistic, wooden reading can send you off on a tangent. I have this experience all the time in the law. I will read the statutes and regulations for some area in which I seldom practice, such as tax or immigration, and think they are perfectly clear. I will then discover, upon speaking to a specialist, that my understanding was wildly off-base and not the way the law actually works at all. I would have made a fool of myself (and committed malpractice) if I had advised a client on the basis of my uninformed understanding.
It seems to me that we Christians spend an inordinate amount of time debating with other Christians about their understandings or patting ourselves on the back about how correct we are. We love it; it’s way more fun, and way easier, than feeding the poor or helping the homeless. The “other” Christian Forums is divided into a bewildering array of subforums in a completely futile effort to keep inter-denominational and even intra-denominational feuds from breaking out.
It seems to me that the best we can do is find a landing spot that best fits our understanding and then focus on our relationship with God and our Christian walk. It may be that some who think they are Christians are so far off-base that they actually are on the road to hell, but it’s not up to me to separate the wheat from the chaff. They certainly aren’t, I am confident, “everyone who doesn’t share my precise view of faith, works, salvation and hell.” I would find it incongruous to take the position (as I do) that Jesus’ message is radically liberating, then spend large portions of my time arguing with other Christians about their definition of faith or whether they have correctly calculated how many angels can dance on the head of a pin (112,483 - so if your calculation is different, you are simply WRONG!!!).
On other threads, there has been discussion as to how an overemphasis on one’s “loathsomeness” can suck the joy out of the Christian walk. It seems to me that an overemphasis on one’s “theological superiority” vis-à-vis those who don’t believe the same way can do the same thing. Jesus did indeed say that He will say to many who purported to act in His name, “I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity” (Matthew 7:23). I believe the real message in this verse is for each of us to “continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling” (Philippians 2:12), to do our best to make sure that we aren’t among those whom Jesus tells to depart. I don’t believe the verse is a license for us to decide which of our fellow Christians fall into this category.
My guess would be that those who live their lives thinking that “faith plus works done in faith” are required for salvation, or that “faith is a lifelong process defined by works,” are on safe ground. I really can’t see how this would rob their Christian walk of joy, praise and thanksgiving; quite the contrary, actually. The only ones I think would be seriously off-base would be those (if there are any within Christendom) who actually think they are earning salvation through works, as though at some point they will be “good enough” to enter God’s holy kingdom, since this is contrary to the core Christian message, and those who think faith is a license do whatever they want (a position thoroughly condemned in Romans).
th1b.taylor
Member
I have been learning to write for about 65 years and I do know that text, as you call it, is not without emotion. If it were books would have no value other than to instruct, killing a multi-billion dollar a year industry. Sentence structure and chosen words do express intent. Even I cross that line on ocassion and get called down for it, no it's not just text and saying so is an easy cop out that is disingenuous, at best.Lets stop you first.
Take a deep breath, my friend. My words are not meant to offend you. Understand that this is all just text, and text has no emotion. This is why we have emoticons.
So, if my words seem rather cold, understand that its impossible for me to apply emotion to them, OK?
1) When I reference the bible, the bible is specific enough that I wouldn't need 20,000 characters. I'm confident that you can reduce the verse you wish to quote into something manageable.
2) I'm not too sure what good it would do to click your link just to understand the point you're trying to get across. Upon first glance, I still don't understand. So, I suppose at this point, I'll just assume you want to abandon your points since you feel others should research your points. That's not a really good way of convincing someone in a debate :biggrin
The link was to the beginning of a study, one you might learn from. I enjoy reaching the Bible and seeing folks begin the walk with God, the one He desires to have with you. I was not trying to be cute.
Qchan
Member
To be honest, I don't enjoy talking to people who interpret the tone in my words when I don't provide any, because they get offended, not just by my words, but anyone's words they think aren't polite. There are a hundred different ways to interpret tone from a sentence structure. The context in which the sentence is provided helps create a tone, but most text written on the internet lacks context. It's like trying to identify sarcasm on the Internet. It's difficult! So, allow me to be frank with you. Keep in mind, I'm being polite and I don't mean any sort of disrespect, OK?
** ahem **
You can't form an argument without a point of reference. Pointing dubiously to another thread is not a good reference. If I told you the sky turns green when it rains, and then I point to a painting of the sky, you'd question my claims. This is essentially what you have done. You made multiple claims, but provided nothing. When questioned, you become unreasonably upset and pointed to a thread that did not provide information to your claims; just a few opinions here and there. I, therefore, cannot take your claims seriously.
One of the rules to this forum is to provide biblical references to your claims. This provides a reference so I'll know where you're coming from, and I can better understand the argument you're making. When you provide no such reference, then there's no foundation for me to base my rebuttal from. Therefore, I am forced to disregard your argument.
Does this make sense?
Jethro Bodine
Member
I find it interesting that the logic used to explain how works are not necessary for keeping one's salvation because you did not get saved by works is acceptable logic, but is unacceptable logic if you suggest that since you got saved by faith you will also keep your salvation by faith.
th1b.taylor
Member
As you live you will meet elders like myself that have sought to be fluent in the ART of Oral Exchange, a term once known by what, today is a filthy term except among men that seek after education beyon
As long as you live you will meet elders like myself that have sought to be fluent in the ART of Oral Exchange, a term once known by what, today is a filthy term except among men that seek after education beyond the limited found in colleges today. It is a term worthy of investigating, not in a modern day dictionary but, into the Merriam-Webster where there is not the effort to sell your generation short but a full and useful understanding is given. A good thesaurus will show you how the revisionists have abused and dirtied our language. Even so, the art is still worthy of learning because your words reveal more about you than you are aware.
okay, http://www.biblestudytools.com/concordances/naves-topical-bible/hell.html This is not a string.
Trying to be polite, this is, in no manor, true. I gave you the link to a flood of Bible references and the position you assumed is illogical, unscriptural and has nothing to do with the rules this string is posted in. I agree that there is no foundation for a rebuttal, even were you to assume the view point of the Atheist.
Edit: Okay, I stepped on my tongue, I thought this string was in the Lounge but, considering the link, then and now, covers scripture reference from early in God's Book through nearly the tail of it I have provide, much more than a scripture.
Last edited:
Kidron
Member
Yes.
and if you look around, you can easily spot those who dont understand that the Blood Atonement is ALL God requires to forgive sins, and that this is not your blood.
He does not accept your blood or your works or your confession or your Church membership, or anything YOU DO......to save you.
You are rejected, and this is why you have to be SAVED.
So, a person, a "Christian" who does not understand this, and who thinks their righteous living will keep them saved, has fallen from Grace, and is the person who Paul is taking to, in Galatians Chapters 1-3.
These types are easy to spot, as they will think that "falling from Grace" means to sin or to backslide, and they have no idea its exactly the opposite.....its a Do-Gooder, a Self-Saver, who will talk about Jesus, talk about the cross, acknowledge the blood atonement, and then go right on down the road actually believing that their good deeds or confession is what keeps them saved.
They worry and argue endlessly about losing their salvation or how you can, or obsess on the book of James.
Very easy to spot.
Qchan
Member
The Art of Oral Exchange, right? This is some times referred to the Art of Dueling with Words (http://journal.oraltradition.org/files/articles/24i/04_24.1.pdf). Further research into this subject reveals that this so-called "art" involves yelling obscenities and using strong expressive language to portray an atmosphere of competitive oral "dueling". If I'm wrong, please correct me. If this art of yours is supposed to inform you on which language is combative and which isn't, then I've got news for you.
About me not being polite. I was polite. Now, I'm not going to be polite. A lot of what I'll say will make large assumptions on basic knowledge (things you should have grasped back when I was in diapers). As with basic knowledge, one should already know that pointing to a URL without any sort of description into what I'm reading is asinine. It's like an arrow that points off the edge of a cliff without any description whatsoever. Who is to know that the arrow is pointing at the stars and not to my doom?
I am not an atheist. I have been arguing with atheists for quite a bit, and if you think you're arguing with an atheist now, then I've got a book to sell you.
Now that you've shown your hand and revealed that you've got very little to say, let alone, prove. I can promptly disregard everything you say from here on out. I really want to continue, but I honestly don't want to waste my time. So, I hope you have a good day, sir.
Kidron
Member
Here is the logic..
A person hear's the Gospel (faith cometh by hearing), and the HS is convicting them.
They "believe".
God on their behalf then justifies them. Roman's 3:21-28.
They are not required to justify themselves 12 days later by works.
They are now completely and eternally justified by GOD, and that is the end of our redemption, with the exception of getting our new bodies, and facing the Judgement Seat, etc..
God has taken our sins and applied the Blood of Christ to them and judged Christ for our sins, and will never judge us again for them, ever.
He cant judge us for what Jesus has already died to pay.
This is why he is now called "FATHER".
This is because he has become so, and is no longer a JUDGE.
This, redemption.... is not a partial situation.... Its not temporary...its not based on how we behave later........its based on a BIRTH, (you must be born again) as this is what happens to a believer, and this new birth happens the moment that they believe, and from this birth, they are established as Sons of God for eternity.
As a matter of fact, they are "sealed unto the day of redemption" of their bodies, and are instantly "seated in heavenly places".
Its done.
Our part in the process is to appreciate it and find a way to be a productive part of this Body Of Christ that we have now been born into, that is our eternal "in Christ" position.
th1b.taylor
Member
I am certainly glad I read you correctly because had I used the intellectually correct terminology with you playing the village idiot you would have jumped on the filthy sounding end of it and I have already had one, recent exercise of that nature and do not need any more intentionally devoid of intellect. Intelligent oral exchange contains none of anything you have, to this point offered. I pray you heal and I pray you learn to communicate, intelligently.
No confessing with your mouth?
What about if I decide to turn away from Christ and convert to Islam?
Can I confess Alah as Lord and still be saved?
JLB
Kidron
Member
What if you are a deaf mute?
what if , what if, what if.
Do i have to go to an alter and confess on a Sunday morning, or can i do it on my death bed?
JLB, Exactly how legalistic do you require "believe on the Lord Jesus and ye shall be saved", to be?
and if you are born again, you are God's property, "bought with a price", and this cant be undone because you change you mind.
You cant undo a new birth with a bad decision.
And yes, if you are a born again Son of God, who has lost your way, turned your back, and have decided to play with other religions, then that has no consequence regarding your Salvation, but it has all sorts of potential personal consequences down here, and of course your Judgement Seat experience is going to be quite sad.
Jethro Bodine
Member
How does the blood of Christ forgive a sin that is unforgivable before, during, and after salvation?
Okay, rather than closing this thread to clean it up, which would result in a few deleted posts, I'm going to ask that we get back to following the forum guidelines. Some are getting too person with their rebuttals therefore, posts that do not reference scripture when presenting an argument will be removed.