Good works & a few simple Questions.

[By Grace]

Lets say you are not a Christian.
NOT, a Christian.
But you are a person who is interested in your fellow man.

This is a hypothetical, and by definition it is a contrary-to-being statement and as a consequence, moot. Therefore, I ask you to tell us your purpose in posting as you did asking the participants on a Christian Board to make a statement as if they were atheists?

<SNIP>

Then you died unexpectedly and went to hell faster then you can blink.
So, why did that happen?
That's the first question.

Have you not read Romans?

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
<SNIP>​

The second question, is.....if all those works, those good works, could not keep you out of hell as an unbeliever, then how could they possibly help you keep your salvation, if you were a believer?

You are assuming a doctrine contrary to Scripture, that there are works of super arrogation which is essentially a Roman Catholic invention, and one of the causes of the Protestant Reformation.

Titus 3: 3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. ​

and lastly....Not any of those good works by themselves attain Heaven for you.... so, how would they keep you out of heaven, if you didnt do them after you are saved?

This is comparing apples to lug nuts, which is another way of stating that this is a comparison of non-equals, and are not related. As I am responding I believe that you are attempting to provoke discussion in the things that you post, but do not really believe then yourself 9 I use that expression very narrowly), and the fact that you neglect to include Scripture references to your assertions helps me to believe that is the case

 

[Kidron]

This is a hypothetical, and by definition it is a contrary-to-being statement and as a consequence, moot. Therefore, I ask you to tell us your purpose in posting as you did asking the participants on a Christian Board to make a statement as if they were atheists?


You are assuming a doctrine contrary to Scripture, that there are works of super arrogation which is essentially a Roman Catholic invention, and one of the causes of the Protestant Reformation.

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.​

Thanks for the questions.
And i posted a generic hypothetical ?, to Christians, so that i would not be flagged by the Mods here as attacking those who always attack OSAS.
[Does that help clarify my position?]

And also, you have exactly proven the point i was trying to make to those who are working their way to heaven, trapped compulsively within their own theology of "making self righteousness".
In that it IS NOT by works of righteousness that we do...[ToS 2.4], but according to his MERCY GOD saved us. (See Paul's numerous letters for more on this fact".)





K
<><

 

[By Grace]

(Edited, does not comply with forum guidelines. Obadiah)

 

[Kidron]

I did.
I just made it a bit more interesting by the method i chose to ask, and also, like i explained, i was trying to avoid giving a mod the idea i was somehow trying to offend.

 

[By Grace]

(Edited, does not comply with forum guidelines. Obadiah)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Let's get back to the simple answers to your questions:

Lets say you are not a Christian.
NOT, a Christian.
But you are a person who is interested in your fellow man.
You visit the sick in hospitals, you give to the poor frequently, you try to obey the golden rule, you volunteer as a substitute 1st grade teacher, you help elderly people unload their food buggies into their cars when you go shopping for food.....and... and you've never watched an "R" rated movie, used profanity, or "cheated" on your marriage........AND, you've never created bigotry in your kids regarding other races.

Then you died unexpectedly and went to hell faster then you can blink.

So, why did that happen?
Thats the first question.

Every Christian knows this happens because you have to have what you did do wrong in this life forgiven through faith in God to do that for you through Jesus Christ.

"21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law (that is, apart from doing righteous things), has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe." (Romans 3:21-22 NIV)

"...salvation By the forgiveness of their sins" (Luke 1:77 NASB)

"9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9 NASB)

The second question, is.....if all those works, those good works, could not keep you out of hell as an unbeliever, then how could they possibly help you keep your salvation, if you were a believer?

Because they would be an expression of having received God's love in the forgiveness of our sins:

"19 We love, because He first loved us (in the forgiving of our sins)." (1 John 4:19 NASB parenthesis mine)

Righteous deeds follow a declaration of righteousness. An ever increasing righteous life MUST follow salvation to validate that salvation and one's relationship with God as being real. Just as surely as NOT living a righteous life shows you do not know God:

"...everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love." (1 John 4:7-8 NASB)

Even though the Bible is so plain about this, many grace teachers insist you do NOT have to have a righteous life after being saved to be saved, not knowing that the Bible says the righteous life they say you do not have to have is the obligatory consequence of having your sins forgiven in Christ.

"I say to you, her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for she loved much..." (Luke 7:47 NASB)

and lastly....Not any of those good works by themselves attain Heaven for you.... so, how would they keep you out of heaven, if you didnt do them after you are saved?

Because the lack of those good deeds may signify the absence of having been saved through the forgiveness of sin through faith in Christ (see above).

 

[Kidron]

Even though the Bible is so plain about this, many grace teachers insist you do NOT have to have a righteous life after being saved to be saved, not knowing that the Bible says the righteous life they say you do not have to have is the obligatory consequence of having your sins forgiven in Christ.
(Luke 7:47 NASB)

Because the lack of those good deeds may signify the absence of having been saved through the forgiveness of sin through faith in Christ (see above).

The blood of Jesus being applied to wash away your sins, does not require you to agree to be good after it is applied.
If it were, then salvation would not be free, and " the gift of righteousness" would not be a gift, and pardon would be based on you and not on the Cross.
This is why the NT tells you that "to him that WORKETH NOT BUT BELIEVETH, in HIM who justifies the UNGODLY....his >FAITH is counted as righteousness"<.....Romans 4:5
So, do you see that word "UNGODLY"?
do you see that phrase "worketh not".
do you see that word "justifies".
They are there for a specific purpose, as you are being taught that God justifies (eternally) the UNGODLY, and that is to prove to you that there are no works or deeds or righteous living on our part that has anything to do with being saved or staying saved.
So as you see, the SAVED UNGODLY person in Paul's scripture is certainly not a person who is maintaining good works, JB, and completely contradicts your entire theology.

 

[JLB]

The blood of Jesus being applied to wash away your sins, does not require you to agree to be good after it is applied.
If it were, then salvation would not be free, and " the gift of righteousness" would not be a gift, and pardon would be based on you and not on the Cross.
This is why the NT tells you that "to him that WORKETH NOT BUT BELIEVETH, in HIM who justifies the UNGODLY....his >FAITH is counted as righteousness"<.....Romans 4:5
So, do you see that word "UNGODLY"?
do you see that phrase "worketh not".
do you see that word "justifies".
They are there for a specific purpose, as you are being taught that God justifies (eternally) the UNGODLY, and that is to prove to you that there are no works or deeds or righteous living on our part that has anything to do with being saved or staying saved.
So as you see, the SAVED UNGODLY person in Paul's scripture is certainly not a person who is maintaining good works, JB, and completely contradicts your entire theology.

Totally wrong.

You completely misunderstand that the command of the Gospel is repent.

Turn toward God.

Turn away from Satan and the sinful life that made you his slave, and submit yourself to Jesus Christ as your Lord.

He is now your Master, the One you are to obey.

Your Master is the one you obey, whether sin leading to death, or obedience leading to righteousness.
Romans 6:16

JLB

 

[Kidron]

Totally wrong.

You completely misunderstand that the command of the Gospel is repent.

Turn

Actually, not only have i understood the "Gospel" and the "Grace of God" as its been applied to me, but ive also become a "joint heir" with Christ.
Isn't it amazing what the Blood of Jesus has done for me?

Ever heard that song "Amazing Grace"?
You should read the lyrics.

-----------------------

Now, Here is the Gospel.


1 Corinthians 15:3-8King James Version (KJV)
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
John 1:12King James Version (KJV)
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Ephesians 2:8-9King James Version (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

or this..

Romans 3:21-28King James Version (KJV)
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

 

[JLB]

Actually, not only have i understood the "Gospel" and the "Grace of God" as its been applied to me, but ive also become a "joint heir" with Christ.
Isn't it amazing what the Blood of Jesus has done for me?

Ever heard that song "Amazing Grace"?
You should read the lyrics.

-----------------------

Now, Here is the Gospel.


1 Corinthians 15:3-8King James Version (KJV)
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
John 1:12King James Version (KJV)
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Ephesians 2:8-9King James Version (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

or this..

Romans 3:21-28King James Version (KJV)
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

It can all be yours, if you repent.

Repentance toward God, and faith in Jesus Christ.

If we refuse to do the work of turning away from sin, then we don't obey nor believe the Gospel.

Your Master is the one you obey, whether sin leading to death or obedience leading to righteousness.
Romans 6:16


JLB

 

[Kidron]

It can all be yours, if you repent.

JLB

Its already mine
( i followed the directions, quite a long time ago).
and, If you have any more questions.
Dont hesitate to ask., as im here to help you.


here is a song for you, that states my point of view, exactly..


K


---------------


What can wash away my sin?
Nothing but the blood of Jesus;
What can make me whole again?
Nothing but the blood of Jesus.

Oh! precious is the flow
That makes me white as snow;
No other fount I know,
Nothing but the blood of Jesus.

For my pardon, this I see,
Nothing but the blood of Jesus;
For my cleansing this my plea,
Nothing but the blood of Jesus.

Nothing can for sin atone,
Nothing but the blood of Jesus;
Naught of good that I have done,
Nothing but the blood of Jesus.

This is all my hope and peace,
Nothing but the blood of Jesus;
This is all my righteousness,
Nothing but the blood of Jesus.

Now by this I’ll overcome—
Nothing but the blood of Jesus,
Now by this I’ll reach my home—
Nothing but the blood of Jesus.

Glory! Glory! This I sing—
Nothing but the blood of Jesus,
All my praise for this I bring—
Nothing but the blood of Jesus.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The blood of Jesus being applied to wash away your sins, does not require you to agree to be good after it is applied.
If it were, then salvation would not be free, and " the gift of righteousness" would not be a gift, and pardon would be based on you and not on the Cross.

This is going to be hard for you to get, but I'm going to try to help you see it:
You are 'required' to be righteous after being declared righteous by your faith the same way getting wet is 'required' after you go swimming. You don't get wet to go swimming. You get wet because you went swimming. In the same way, we do righteous deeds because we have been first declared righteous through the forgiveness of sins.

This is why the NT tells you that "to him that WORKETH NOT BUT BELIEVETH, in HIM who justifies the UNGODLY....his >FAITH is counted as righteousness"<.....Romans 4:5
So, do you see that word "UNGODLY"?
do you see that phrase "worketh not".
do you see that word "justifies".
They are there for a specific purpose, as you are being taught that God justifies (eternally) the UNGODLY, and that is to prove to you that there are no works or deeds or righteous living on our part that has anything to do with being saved....

Everybody knows this. You'll have a hard time finding someone in the Protestant church who will argue with you that salvation is by works.

...or staying saved.

...But few know this, because they don't get exposed to the scriptures that tell us "make sure no one deceives you...8 the one who practices sin is of the devil... 9 No * one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot * sin, because he is born of God." (1 John 3: 7-9 NASB)

This is the same as saying the person who is wet has been in the pool, while the person who isn't wet hasn't been in the pool. That's how works do indeed have something to do with salvation. The Bible plainly says they have something to do with salvation, just not in the way you are hearing the argument, that somehow the works themselves do the justifying. Everybody knows works can't do that. That's not what's being argued. The problem in the church today is the exact opposite--thinking you can be utterly sinful and think you're saved. An honest read of the Bible plainly tells us this can not be so.

The 'make sure no one deceives you' part? That's talking about those who come along and tell us that you can be one that practices sin and can be born again at the same time. John is plainly telling us, 'no, that's not true, don't be deceived': If a person who professes to be a believer is still among the ungodly they do not belong to God. That person has either never actually been forgiven their sins, or they walked away from and lost the forgiveness of sins they once had, but regardless which is true, the point is they do not belong to God.

It's impossible to argue what John so plainly says. Impossible. It probably seems so 'not' true because so many grace teachers have infiltrated the church and spread the leaven of their false 'you can sin all you want and still be saved' message. I know that most victims are simply rehashing what they have been taught, not knowing what the real truth is that the Bible so plainly teaches us.

 

[JLB]

Its already mine
( i followed the directions, quite a long time ago).
and, If you have any more questions.
Dont hesitate to ask., as im here to help you.


here is a song for you, that states my point of view, exactly..


K


---------------


What can wash away my sin?
Nothing but the blood of Jesus;
What can make me whole again?
Nothing but the blood of Jesus.

Oh! precious is the flow
That makes me white as snow;
No other fount I know,
Nothing but the blood of Jesus.

For my pardon, this I see,
Nothing but the blood of Jesus;
For my cleansing this my plea,
Nothing but the blood of Jesus.

Nothing can for sin atone,
Nothing but the blood of Jesus;
Naught of good that I have done,
Nothing but the blood of Jesus.

This is all my hope and peace,
Nothing but the blood of Jesus;
This is all my righteousness,
Nothing but the blood of Jesus.

Now by this I’ll overcome—
Nothing but the blood of Jesus,
Now by this I’ll reach my home—
Nothing but the blood of Jesus.

Glory! Glory! This I sing—
Nothing but the blood of Jesus,
All my praise for this I bring—
Nothing but the blood of Jesus.

I believe it is yours, because I believe you have repented and have received forgiveness.


46 Then He said to them, "Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day,
47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. Luke 24:46-47


JLB

 

[bcbsr]

Totally wrong.
You completely misunderstand that the command of the Gospel is repent.
JLB

If a person must work to change their behavior as a requirement for salvation, then it cannot be said that justification is by faith apart from works (Rom 4:6) as Kidron has also pointed out, and it not could it be said that "to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness" (Rom 4:5) as Jethro has pointed out.

Thus it says, "by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." Eph 2:8,9

Granted inherent in saving faith is the INTENTION to do what Jesus said. But an INTENTION is not a work. And indeed what Christian can claim to carry out in action perfectly what they intended? Even Paul struggled with that (Rom 7, Gal 5:17)

But if by "repentance" one means not simply an intention, but rather working to change one's behavior, then indeed it could be said that such a person views justification is not by faith apart from works, but rather that works along with faith are both conditions for salvation, which to many of us is a very different gospel that Paul preached.

 

[Seabass]

Lets say you are not a Christian.
NOT, a Christian.
But you are a person who is interested in your fellow man.
You visit the sick in hospitals, you give to the poor frequently, you try to obey the golden rule, you volunteer as a substitute 1st grade teacher, you help elderly people unload their food buggies into their cars when you go shopping for food.....and... and you've never watched an "R" rated movie, used profanity, or "cheated" on your marriage........AND, you've never created bigotry in your kids regarding other races.

Then you died unexpectedly and went to hell faster then you can blink.

So, why did that happen?
Thats the first question.

Good works do not save, but obedient works in believing, repenting of sins, confession and submitting to baptism do save, Jn 8:24; Lk 13:3,5; Matt 10:32,33; Mk 16:16

The second question, is.....if all those works, those good works, could not keep you out of hell as an unbeliever, then how could they possibly help you keep your salvation, if you were a believer?

Because good works are required by God of the believer/Christian, Eph 2:10; Matt 25:31-46; 2 Tim 3:17; Titus 2:7,14; Titus 3:8,14; Heb 10:24; Gal 6:10; 1 Jn 3:17. Performing good works is not an option for the believer/Christian.

and lastly....Not any of those good works by themselves attain Heaven for you.... so, how would they keep you out of heaven, if you didnt do them after you are saved?

See above the verses that require the Christian to do good works as in Matt 25 where Jesus said if you do not feed, clothe or visit another disciple is the same as not doing it unto Christ Himself. Therefore those disciples will go away into everlasting punishment Mt 25:41-46.

 

[JLB]

See above the verses that require the Christian to do good works as in Matt 25 where Jesus said if you do not feed, clothe or visit another disciple is the same as not doing it unto Christ Himself. Therefore those disciples will go away into everlasting punishment Mt 25:41-46.

Disciples?

Where does it mention "disciples" will go away to everlasting punishment?

I do believe that both those on His left hand as well as His right hand were His servants, as the context dictates.

He does say, in as much as you did it to these My brethren...

I do agree that those on His left hand are those who have believed in Jesus, but have no fruit.

JLB

 

[Drew]

For the believer they indicate faith in God's forgiveness. That is the ONLY way they 'help' you keep your salvation. They simply indicate that you really do have the faith in Christ that saves. That's all. Nothing more. I have to emphasize that because chances are good you will continue to hear the argument as an argument for 'works save'. Just watch folks.

You have the gift of prophecy.

And now I will make a prediction: No one will actually deal with this text from Romans 2 in even a remotely plausible manner:

6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

If I was asked to write a statement expressing final salvation by good works, this is what I would write. Note the "according to".

And yet you, and others, do not believe it means what it clearly says. Why not?

The only plausible argument I can imagine is that there has been a translation error; however no one makes that argument.

 

[Drew]

Let me add something: I believe Romans 2:6-7 as it is written - eternal life will be granted based on the good works we do. But, and this is a really important "but", I believe that a believer is given the Spirit based on faith alone, and the Spirit will most assuredly produce these works. So I would affirm that if you believe, you are more or less destined to be saved (unless you entirely turn your back on the work of Spirit). So, in a certain sense, I would say the "good works" are evidence of the thing that is the real ultimate cause of salvation - faith.

But Paul still says what he says: at the final judgment, it will be the good works that are the basis for the awarding of eternal life.

 

[smaller]

Acts 10:35
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

The above was written about people who did NOT know Jesus.

Abraham believed BEFORE the Revealing of Christ in the flesh, because he feared God, and that caused him to consider his ways. And God Himself came to Abraham because of this. I might even say that God moved Abram to Abraham.

There are many who walk in consideration of God, not necessarily knowing Jesus Christ. There are many depictions of Jesus Christ, false images, that have sprung up all over the world, that I do NOT follow or adhere to.

Matthew 24:5
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Mark 13:6
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Luke 21:8
And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

I sometimes view the above as the many claiming "I Am" Christ to be the workings of various denominations, saying they only have "the right Christ" and everyone else, not. To me, that is the essence of deception.

I do believe this, a fact from John the Apostle:

1 John 4:7
Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.

It is on this GROUND that I try to connect to every person, and to witness Jesus Christ to them. There is no difference between Jesus and Love. God IS in fact LOVE. Many people will rightfully reject the frailties of "men" in their constructs of Jesus, and see "them" for what they really are. NOT God. That does not mean that God is NOT Love, because HE IS.

If any person presents Jesus to any man, they will present Him as He Is, Love. And they will show this Love of God in Christ in themselves, and witness to Him, in Love, as Love, as they have so received.

 

[Seabass]

Disciples?

Where does it mention "disciples" will go away to everlasting punishment?

I do believe that both those on His left hand as well as His right hand were His servants, as the context dictates.

He does say, in as much as you did it to these My brethren...

I do agree that those on His left hand are those who have believed in Jesus, but have no fruit.

JLB

Judgement of condemnation here in Matt 25 is based upon not what a disciple did but what he neglected to do. Any disciple(s) that neglects his fellow disciples that are in need are, as Christ puts it, neglecting Christ Himself and will have condemnation judged upon him for his neglect. The righteous, in the context, are the ones judged to be saved because of what they do, their doing good works means they are not neglecting the need of others. One cannot remain righteous/saved by neglecting the need of others, that is, remain righteous by not doing good works. Therefore for those that are a Christian they then MUST do good works to maintain their righteousness/salvation for neglect will cause them to lose it.