Grace through faith believers won't be raptured but still get saved?

[jonahmano]

Interesting debates going in social media and I found one person explaining beautifully that everyone is saved by Grace through Faith but only those who have intimate relationship with Jesus Christ are going to take the first flight!!!

Let's just look at the verses he quotes us

Luke 21:34-36 King James Version (KJV)
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

If ALL Christians were going to take part in this great escape, Why would Jesus give such a stern warning? Surely, Jesus knows that a non-Christian cannot be in an attitude of constant prayer. Surely, non-Christians are not expected to be looking for that day and watching of signs of his Return.

Rev. 3:10 says, "Because thou has kept the word of my patience, I ALSO WILL KEEP THEE FROM THE HOUR OF TEMPTATION, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." The implication of this verse is obvious: If the end-time Christian does NOT stay close to the Lord and endure to the end, HE WILL NOT BE KEPT FROM THE TRIBULATION HOUR!

There are many other scriptures he quotes but most interesting one is

The parable of ten virgins. He says the foolish virgins weren't any un-believers and if they were then they wouldn't have been called virgins in the first place. Foolish virgins were left behind because they didn't have oil with them and that oil is being led by the Holy Spirit which makes a person to have intimate personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

Finally he says those who accept Jesus Christ by Grace through faith theory, will surely be saved but they will be left behind because they didn't have any personal relationship with Jesus Christ

What are your thoughts?

 

[JLB]

jonahmano said -

nteresting debates going in social media and I found one person explaining beautifully that everyone is saved by Grace through Faith but only those who have intimate relationship with Jesus Christ are going to take the first flight!!!

Let's just look at the verses he quotes us

Luke 21:34-36 King James Version (KJV)
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.


Do you know what day Jesus is referring to hear in this verse?

 

[Malachi]

Finally he says those who accept Jesus Christ by Grace through faith theory, will surely be saved but they will be left behind because they didn't have any personal relationship with Jesus Christ What are your thoughts?

Once again you see the necessity of studying the Scriptures. All those who are saved by grace through faith receive the gift of the Holy Spirit -- indeed the gift of "Christ in you the hope of glory". Therefore saints (sanctified by the indwelling Holy Spirit) automatically have a personal relationship with Christ. Therefore none who are truly saved will be "left behind". Search the Scriptures and don't waste time with every wind of doctrine.

 

[Kathi]

Once again you see the necessity of studying the Scriptures. All those who are saved by grace through faith receive the gift of the Holy Spirit -- indeed the gift of "Christ in you the hope of glory". Therefore saints (sanctified by the indwelling Holy Spirit) automatically have a personal relationship with Christ. Therefore none who are truly saved will be "left behind". Search the Scriptures and don't waste time with every wind of doctrine.

Yes,truly is an important word here.God knows that heart.

 

[JLB]

Once again you see the necessity of studying the Scriptures. All those who are saved by grace through faith receive the gift of the Holy Spirit -- indeed the gift of "Christ in you the hope of glory". Therefore saints (sanctified by the indwelling Holy Spirit) automatically have a personal relationship with Christ. Therefore none who are truly saved will be "left behind". Search the Scriptures and don't waste time with every wind of doctrine.

How does someone come up with a separation of the body of Christ, at what is called The Gathering?

Is Christ divided?

All who are His will be Gathered at His Coming.

Yet you are teaching God's children just the opposite. Exactly 100% the opposite of what the scriptures say.


16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17


...we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

I challenge you Brother, to show me and this Forum, where this Great Division of God's people takes place in this scripture.
Where some people go to heaven and some people are left behind.

...we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them.



The Resurrection and Rapture happen at the same time; At His Coming! One Event!


Paul says the same thing here.


21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 1 Corinthians 15:21-23


in Christ all shall be made alive...afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.

Those who are Christ's! All those who are Christ's!

When? At His Coming!

we shall all be changed


51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1 Corinthians 15:51-52


Everywhere the scripture refers to His Coming, [The Second Coming], it refers the Resurrection/Rapture, which is One event with No separation of time.



JLB

 

[jonahmano]

Once again you see the necessity of studying the Scriptures. All those who are saved by grace through faith receive the gift of the Holy Spirit -- indeed the gift of "Christ in you the hope of glory". Therefore saints (sanctified by the indwelling Holy Spirit) automatically have a personal relationship with Christ. Therefore none who are truly saved will be "left behind". Search the Scriptures and don't waste time with every wind of doctrine.

Never written anywhere in the bible that after accepting Jesus Christ you will automatically receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. It's an on-going process. 3000 people got saved and were baptized and they received the gift oft he Holy Spirit Read Acts 2. First Repent, then baptism and later comes the gift of the Holy Spirit and those gifts were secured by continuing in the apostles doctrine, breaking of bread and prayer. It's not that they just believed and went on their own way .

So your argument that any person who has accepted Jesus Christ by grace through faith will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit automatically is quite bewildering.

The matter is you guys say salvation is not of works but by grace of God and through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and he says salvation is surely by what you think which is grace and faith but the first flight will be delayed to them that that are not the true bride of Christ which are like foolish virgins.

There were 10 virgins which were believers. 5 were wise and 5 were foolish. 5 wise had oil which signifies they had fuel for their Spirit Soul and body and 5 foolish were saved by grace through faith simple believers who were taught they don't need any oil and every thing come in a golden platter :tongue it was too late for them to catch the first flight because the couldn't buy any oil for themselves. Anyways according to him they will be saved after facing the persecution.

 

[Malachi]

Never written anywhere in the bible that after accepting Jesus Christ you will automatically receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Read John 7:38 and BELIEVE IT.

 

[jonahmano]

Read John 7:38 and BELIEVE IT.

John 7:38 is in with the context of John 7:37

Please don't twist the word of God. First you need to be thirsty then only you can drink and then only out of the the belly flows the rivers of water. It's not automatic my brother. Everything is automatic today from cooking to washing clothes. we are living in a robotic world :tongue

 

[JLB]

Read John 7:38 and BELIEVE IT.

"Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" So they said to him, "We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." Acts 19:2


And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. Acts 19:6



"Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?



JLB

 

[poetofparables]

Interesting debates going in social media and I found one person explaining beautifully that everyone is saved by Grace through Faith but only those who have intimate relationship with Jesus Christ are going to take the first flight!!!

Let's just look at the verses he quotes us

Luke 21:34-36 King James Version (KJV)
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

If ALL Christians were going to take part in this great escape, Why would Jesus give such a stern warning? Surely, Jesus knows that a non-Christian cannot be in an attitude of constant prayer. Surely, non-Christians are not expected to be looking for that day and watching of signs of his Return.

Rev. 3:10 says, "Because thou has kept the word of my patience, I ALSO WILL KEEP THEE FROM THE HOUR OF TEMPTATION, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." The implication of this verse is obvious: If the end-time Christian does NOT stay close to the Lord and endure to the end, HE WILL NOT BE KEPT FROM THE TRIBULATION HOUR!

There are many other scriptures he quotes but most interesting one is

The parable of ten virgins. He says the foolish virgins weren't any un-believers and if they were then they wouldn't have been called virgins in the first place. Foolish virgins were left behind because they didn't have oil with them and that oil is being led by the Holy Spirit which makes a person to have intimate personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

Finally he says those who accept Jesus Christ by Grace through faith theory, will surely be saved but they will be left behind because they didn't have any personal relationship with Jesus Christ

What are your thoughts?

I think maybe I understand what you're trying to get across, do some christians get left behind. Like in the story of the virgins some preparing for their groom were foolish and were left behind.

The key word is "Foolish"

They prepared foolishly and were left behind.

 

[jonahmano]

I think maybe I understand what you're trying to get across, do some christians get left behind. Like in the story of the virgins some preparing for their groom were foolish and were left behind.

The key word is "Foolish"

They prepared foolishly and were left behind.

How did they prepare foolishly? Just believing in Christ and knowing that you are saved and you have nothing to do and having fellowship with God is just as optional is foolishness.

 

[poetofparables]

How did they prepare foolishly? Just believing in Christ and knowing that you are saved and you have nothing to do and having fellowship with God is just as optional is foolishness.

I agree.

 

[Sinthesis]

Interesting debates going in social media and I found one person explaining beautifully that everyone is saved by Grace through Faith but only those who have intimate relationship with Jesus Christ are going to take the first flight!!!

Let's just look at the verses he quotes us

Luke 21:34-36 King James Version (KJV)
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

If ALL Christians were going to take part in this great escape, Why would Jesus give such a stern warning? Surely, Jesus knows that a non-Christian cannot be in an attitude of constant prayer. Surely, non-Christians are not expected to be looking for that day and watching of signs of his Return.

Rev. 3:10 says, "Because thou has kept the word of my patience, I ALSO WILL KEEP THEE FROM THE HOUR OF TEMPTATION, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." The implication of this verse is obvious: If the end-time Christian does NOT stay close to the Lord and endure to the end, HE WILL NOT BE KEPT FROM THE TRIBULATION HOUR!

There are many other scriptures he quotes but most interesting one is

The parable of ten virgins. He says the foolish virgins weren't any un-believers and if they were then they wouldn't have been called virgins in the first place. Foolish virgins were left behind because they didn't have oil with them and that oil is being led by the Holy Spirit which makes a person to have intimate personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

Finally he says those who accept Jesus Christ by Grace through faith theory, will surely be saved but they will be left behind because they didn't have any personal relationship with Jesus Christ

What are your thoughts?

In general it is unproductive to support the idea of a divided Body of Christ. It seems a surrender to vanity where one part of Jesus' Body discounts another as not worthy of salvation; reverting to a theology not of Grace, but works. It is also ironic because part of Jesus' work was to collect those who would surrender to Grace into His Body, divided from those satisfied in their works. Any understanding of a parable which promotes a divided Body of Christ needs to be reexamined.

Mat 12:25 - And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:​

 

[petester]

I was JUST thinking about this.I know of some people that read the Bible go to church and pass judgement on others.Well some are racists some are fornicators some even teach the younger generation to be like them.These people have faith that they are going to Heaven.Becasue they have that faith is it really so? I dont think so I think they may have prepared themselves for Heaven but they did it foolishly and will not be aloud at all.I mean I gave my life by not having sinful friends by not fornicating even though I was given theae opportunities numerous times for nothing? I mean just anybody is let in if they run down to the church befor the end and say"I repent" and thats it? Its that easy?......I think not .......I believe its not faith alone but proof af character that will admit one into Heaven.

 

[Obadiah]

A reminder to all members: Please read the new guidelines for posting and responding to threads at this link:
http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...-in-the-apologetics-and-theology-forum.57557/

 

[jonahmano]

In general it is unproductive to support the idea of a divided Body of Christ. It seems a surrender to vanity where one part of Jesus' Body discounts another as not worthy of salvation; reverting to a theology not of Grace, but works. It is also ironic because part of Jesus' work was to collect those who would surrender to Grace into His Body, divided from those satisfied in their works. Any understanding of a parable which promotes a divided Body of Christ needs to be reexamined.

Mat 12:25 - And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:​

But in the parable of virgins. All 10 were virgins. So how do you differentiate them? They were of the body of Christ but 5 were left alone. When Christ compares church to a body with Christ as head. It's is well understood that it's lead by the head. We know that all actions we do in your body comes from mind and there is deeper understanding in it. Just simple believing and going in your own way will not make one to be a part of body of Christ. Now in the term "one mind'. one part of the body of Christ, just wants to have 1 day relationship with Christ that is Sunday or no day relationship then how do you join them with the body of Christ which has all day relationship with Christ.

There are thousands of denominations in this world and if you say that the kingdom of God is not divided then why they look divided? Why each local church have their own protocols which sometimes in complete contradiction with others? There are thousands of things to answer and you just can't quote Mat 12:25 for this. I perceive that God is waking up a church from all the local churches which is His body and they will be raptured and others who have just believed will be left behind because the cares for the world were more prominent for them than that of having fellowship with Jesus Christ and they will have to face the persecution and have another chance of serving Him and finally be saved because of God's promise unto them.

 

[childeye]

Seems to me there is a misunderstanding of what scripture means by faith through grace. Grace is not letting people get away with sin, as it seems is being implied in the op. Faith is not believing in Jesus as the Christ, and then sinning without any concern for how you are hurting others by doing so. Grace means by God's benevolence and forbearance. Faith means to trust in His Character. The opposite of grace is by your own self determination of will, as in you earned it. The opposite of faith is distrust or cynicism, skepticism. Hence no one is saved without God's grace which is seen in the Christ that was sent, and by faith in the Christ as the True Character of God.

 

[WIP]

Let's begin backing up our statements with scripture. Personal opinion and conjecture are easy to come by but this isn't a forum for sharing opinions.

 

[jonahmano]

Seems to me there is a misunderstanding of what scripture means by faith through grace. Grace is not letting people get away with sin, as it seems is being implied in the op. Faith is not believing in Jesus as the Christ, and then sinning without any concern for how you are hurting others by doing so. Grace means by God's benevolence and forbearance. Faith means to trust in His Character. The opposite of grace is by your own self determination of will, as in you earned it. The opposite of faith is distrust or cynicism, skepticism. Hence no one is saved without God's grace which is seen in the Christ that was sent, and by faith in the Christ as the True Character of God.

It's true that everyone is saved by grace through faith but it's not a one time experience. Hear the gospel on a TV and accept Jesus Christ as your Personal Saviour and go on your way doing worldly activities. I think the preacher which I quoted is talking about these kind of people who will be saved because of grace of God and their belief that He is the only saviour but they will be left behind at the rapture time because they didn't prepare themselves as bride of Christ. They weren't watching over His return, they were busy in their own worldly affairs but others submitting themselves at the feet of Jesus, took out time of their daily 24 hour routine, prayed, meditated in His Word and worshipped God and they were taken at the first flight because they were pouring out themselves unto Jesus.

So you must understand the point when I say only Grace by faith believers. The OSAS and non OSAS topics were hot in this forum and I don't want to drag those arguments here. I think you must look this thread in that aspect but excluding them. Here we are debating about people who are surrendered to God who give their best time to God in prayer, fasting, meditation and worshipping God whereas others have accepted Jesus Christ but can't give their time to Jesus Christ because of their worldly affairs.

 

[childeye]

It's true that everyone is saved by grace through faith but it's not a one time experience. Hear the gospel on a TV and accept Jesus Christ as your Personal Saviour and go on your way doing worldly activities. I think the preacher which I quoted is talking about these kind of people who will be saved because of grace of God and their belief that He is the only saviour but they will be left behind at the rapture time because they didn't prepare themselves as bride of Christ. They weren't watching over His return, they were busy in their own worldly affairs but others submitting themselves at the feet of Jesus, took out time of their daily 24 hour routine, prayed, meditated in His Word and worshipped God and they were taken at the first flight because they were pouring out themselves unto Jesus.

So you must understand the point when I say only Grace by faith believers. The OSAS and non OSAS topics were hot in this forum and I don't want to drag those arguments here. I think you must look this thread in that aspect but excluding them. Here we are debating about people who are surrendered to God who give their best time to God in prayer, fasting, meditation and worshipping God whereas others have accepted Jesus Christ but can't give their time to Jesus Christ because of their worldly affairs.

Thank you for the explanation. I believe I understand your point. I do not wish to debate OSAS and non OSAS. May I say that I am certain that true praise and worship are drawn out by the object of worship, and that it is not something done as a persons prerogative. It seems to me that those looking for the coming of Christ would not be counting themselves as worthy of escaping those things that are forewarned of, if indeed they are always praying that they may be found worthy to escape them.