Grace through faith believers won't be raptured but still get saved?

[childeye]

Let's begin backing up our statements with scripture. Personal opinion and conjecture are easy to come by but this isn't a forum for sharing opinions.

The problem is that even scriptural interpretation can be a matter of opinion. Of course you know this. There are always semantics present in our language. Hence one person says, "that is just your opinion," and the other person says, "It is just your opinion that it is my opinion".

 

[jonahmano]

Thank you for the explanation. I believe I understand your point. I do not wish to debate OSAS and non OSAS. May I say that I am certain that true praise and worship are drawn out by the object of worship, and that it is not something done as a persons prerogative. It seems to me that those looking for the coming of Christ would not be counting themselves as worthy of escaping those things that are forewarned of, if indeed they are always praying that they may be found worthy to escape them.

Exactly! Very much in agreement with your point. Even when they fellowship with God daily they don't think they are some superman because of what they do but they do it because that they may know Him and the power of His resurrection. I don't understand how those believing in God and fellowship with Him and those that do believe in God and don't fellowship with Him aren't different.

He says the latter will be still saved because they believed that Jesus is God when His grace was bestowed upon them but they won't be raptured in the first flight because they didn't surrender their lives to Jesus. They didn't leave their father which is the "Devil" and be united to their "Groom" which is the Christ.

Another beautiful explanation from him is he's comparing the bride of Christ with the marriage of the husband and wife in Ephesians 5:22-33

When a man leave his father and mother and joined unto his wife they two shall become one. Here it's talking about priority and family comes before parents. Decisions and agreements are made by the family (Husband & Wife) but not by parents of the girl or the boy. So in the same way the church (Bride of Christ) leaving their worldly father that is the "Devil" and be united to Christ (Groom) and they two become one. It's not like you gather on Sunday worship and from Monday to Saturday each member of the body of Christ do their own activities and come and join another Sunday and the job is done.

 

[childeye]

Exactly! Very much in agreement with your point. Even when they fellowship with God daily they don't think they are some superman because of what they do but they do it because that they may know Him and the power of His resurrection. I don't understand how those believing in God and fellowship with Him and those that do believe in God and don't fellowship with Him aren't different.

He says the latter will be still saved because they believed that Jesus is God when His grace was bestowed upon them but they won't be raptured in the first flight because they didn't surrender their lives to Jesus. They didn't leave their father which is the "Devil" and be united to their "Groom" which is the Christ.

Another beautiful explanation from him is he's comparing the bride of Christ with the marriage of the husband and wife in Ephesians 5:22-33

When a man leave his father and mother and joined unto his wife they two shall become one. Here it's talking about priority and family comes before parents. Decisions and agreements are made by the family (Husband & Wife) but not by parents of the girl or the boy. So in the same way the church (Bride of Christ) leaving their worldly father that is the "Devil" and be united to Christ (Groom) and they two become one. It's not like you gather on Sunday worship and from Monday to Saturday each member of the body of Christ do their own activities and come and join another Sunday and the job is done.

I like the assessments of the warnings about being prepared and watchful. I don't really like to have fear, but in this case I count it as wisdom.

 

[Sinthesis]

But in the parable of virgins. All 10 were virgins. So how do you differentiate them? They were of the body of Christ but 5 were left alone. When Christ compares church to a body with Christ as head. It's is well understood that it's lead by the head. We know that all actions we do in your body comes from mind and there is deeper understanding in it. Just simple believing and going in your own way will not make one to be a part of body of Christ. Now in the term "one mind'. one part of the body of Christ, just wants to have 1 day relationship with Christ that is Sunday or no day relationship then how do you join them with the body of Christ which has all day relationship with Christ.

There are thousands of denominations in this world and if you say that the kingdom of God is not divided then why they look divided? Why each local church have their own protocols which sometimes in complete contradiction with others? There are thousands of things to answer and you just can't quote Mat 12:25 for this. I perceive that God is waking up a church from all the local churches which is His body and they will be raptured and others who have just believed will be left behind because the cares for the world were more prominent for them than that of having fellowship with Jesus Christ and they will have to face the persecution and have another chance of serving Him and finally be saved because of God's promise unto them.

Yes, all ten bridesmaids were virgins, but none were Christians because in a marriage context that title is reserved for Jesus' Bride. Rather the bridesmaids represent the two endtime options available to faithful Jews awaiting the promised Bridegroom: wise acceptance that their Messiah has taken a bride other than themselves, or foolish discouragement and a return to them that sell to buy for themselves. Unfortunately by this time the mark of the beast will be required to buy or sell, so that if they return having bought anything they will be rejected.

The denominations within Christianity are not divisions, any more than your own limbs are divided from the rest of you. The protocols which differentiate denominations are not in Christian fundamentals, but are about extraneous things which specialize these parts of Jesus' body to better preform the certain tasks assigned them for a certain time and place. These tasks are all important, and just because some may seem more glorious to God, especially to those entrusted with them, than the more mundane, doesn't mean those less celebrated will be left behind. By Grace we Christians are all saved, lest we revert to a works based salvation.

 

[jonahmano]

Yes, all ten bridesmaids were virgins, but none were Christians because in a marriage context that title is reserved for Jesus' Bride. Rather the bridesmaids represent the two endtime options available to faithful Jews awaiting the promised Bridegroom: wise acceptance that their Messiah has taken a bride other than themselves, or foolish discouragement and a return to them that sell to buy for themselves. Unfortunately by this time the mark of the beast will be required to buy or sell, so that if they return having bought anything they will be rejected.

The denominations within Christianity are not divisions, any more than your own limbs are divided from the rest of you. The protocols which differentiate denominations are not in Christian fundamentals, but are about extraneous things which specialize these parts of Jesus' body to better preform the certain tasks assigned them for a certain time and place. These tasks are all important, and just because some may seem more glorious to God, especially to those entrusted with them, than the more mundane, doesn't mean those less celebrated will be left behind. By Grace we Christians are all saved, lest we revert to a works based salvation.

Your argument can be broken because "All Israel getting saved" is a separate issue and it can't be clubbed into this 10 virgins theory. God is going to save all Israel not because they were Israelites but because He hath made an oath to their forefather Abraham. John 3:16's "whosoever" states that God's plan for salvation of every human being irrespective of races. So that matter of Jews is a separate issue. Wise Israels, Foolish Israels? It's not fitting by thinking even on intellectual basics because we are saved by grace through faith and from where wise and foolish criteria comes into the picture? The parable of ten virgins is definitely talking about believers who have fully surrendered their lives to Jesus and to believers who have not fully surrendered their lives to Jesus.

 

[Sinthesis]

Your argument can be broken because "All Israel getting saved" is a separate issue and it can't be clubbed into this 10 virgins theory. God is going to save all Israel not because they were Israelites but because He hath made an oath to their forefather Abraham. John 3:16's "whosoever" states that God's plan for salvation of every human being irrespective of races. So that matter of Jews is a separate issue. Wise Israels, Foolish Israels? It's not fitting by thinking even on intellectual basics because we are saved by grace through faith and from where wise and foolish criteria comes into the picture? The parable of ten virgins is definitely talking about believers who have fully surrendered their lives to Jesus and to believers who have not fully surrendered their lives to Jesus.

I haven't mentioned "all Israel getting saved".

The parable was given to Jews and is about Jews, not Christians, for all believers in Jesus Christ will be saved regardless any motes seen in other Christians' lives. That is what Grace through faith is, for our salvation is a gift of God, and not a gift that we somehow earn though some arbitrary token to demonstrate just how deserving we are of salvation. What we Christians do with our free gift of salvation is subject to God's judgement, but even those whose works are burned up are still saved. Only fools who trust in the false messiah and doctrine of 'those who buy and sell' will be strangers to Jesus.

 

[WIP]

The problem is that even scriptural interpretation can be a matter of opinion. Of course you know this. There are always semantics present in our language. Hence one person says, "that is just your opinion," and the other person says, "It is just your opinion that it is my opinion".

I will answer this here so it will hopefully add clarity to what we are attempting to do.

I agree with what you posted above. The point of the guidelines are that if you are going to make a statement that is to be identified as your understanding, then back up your statement with the scripture reference(s) that apply. For example, in the following post, you make some general statements counter to the OP. Where's the scripture to support you opposing viewpoint, understanding, or interpretation?

Seems to me there is a misunderstanding of what scripture means by faith through grace. Grace is not letting people get away with sin, as it seems is being implied in the op. Faith is not believing in Jesus as the Christ, and then sinning without any concern for how you are hurting others by doing so. Grace means by God's benevolence and forbearance. Faith means to trust in His Character. The opposite of grace is by your own self determination of will, as in you earned it. The opposite of faith is distrust or cynicism, skepticism. Hence no one is saved without God's grace which is seen in the Christ that was sent, and by faith in the Christ as the True Character of God.

 

[Deborah13]

Exactly! Very much in agreement with your point. Even when they fellowship with God daily they don't think they are some superman because of what they do but they do it because that they may know Him and the power of His resurrection. I don't understand how those believing in God and fellowship with Him and those that do believe in God and don't fellowship with Him aren't different.

He says the latter will be still saved because they believed that Jesus is God when His grace was bestowed upon them but they won't be raptured in the first flight because they didn't surrender their lives to Jesus. They didn't leave their father which is the "Devil" and be united to their "Groom" which is the Christ.

Another beautiful explanation from him is he's comparing the bride of Christ with the marriage of the husband and wife in Ephesians 5:22-33

When a man leave his father and mother and joined unto his wife they two shall become one. Here it's talking about priority and family comes before parents. Decisions and agreements are made by the family (Husband & Wife) but not by parents of the girl or the boy. So in the same way the church (Bride of Christ) leaving their worldly father that is the "Devil" and be united to Christ (Groom) and they two become one. It's not like you gather on Sunday worship and from Monday to Saturday each member of the body of Christ do their own activities and come and join another Sunday and the job is done.

1Co 6:11 And certain of you were these! but ye were washed, but ye were sanctified, but ye were declared righteous [justified], in the name of the Lord Jesus, and in the Spirit of our God.

So what are hear you saying is that some are justified and sanctified in Christ. But others are only justified in Christ because they have been good enough to be sancified in Christ.
Is that correct?

 

[Malachi]

But in the parable of virgins. All 10 were virgins. So how do you differentiate them?

First of all this is a parable, and parables can only be taken so far. Secondly it is the presence or absence of "oil" that differentiated them. Oil is symbolic of the Holy Spirit (1 Jn 2:20,27), and five had the Holy Spirit and five did not. What's the lesson?

In churches and in Christendom today, that are multitudes of "Christians" who are Christians in name only. They "appear" to be Christians, hence "virgins" in the eyes of the world. But they do not have the indwelling Holy Spirit. Therefore they are not in the Body of Christ. At the Rapture they will be left behind.

And "automatic" may not be a word in the Bible, but for our purposes today, it can mean a lot. Those who are truly saved are automatically in the Body of Christ. So don't dismiss that word and say "Oh, it is not found in Scripture". That is hardly the point.

 

[Kathi]

First of all this is a parable, and parables can only be taken so far. Secondly it is the presence or absence of "oil" that differentiated them. Oil is symbolic of the Holy Spirit (1 Jn 2:20,27), and five had the Holy Spirit and five did not. What's the lesson?

In churches and in Christendom today, that are multitudes of "Christians" who are Christians in name only. They "appear" to be Christians, hence "virgins" in the eyes of the world. But they do not have the indwelling Holy Spirit. Therefore they are not in the Body of Christ. At the Rapture they will be left behind.

And "automatic" may not be a word in the Bible, but for our purposes today, it can mean a lot. Those who are truly saved are automatically in the Body of Christ. So don't dismiss that word and say "Oh, it is not found in Scripture". That is hardly the point.

Well said Malachi. God knows the heart.

 

[jonahmano]

1Co 6:11 And certain of you were these! but ye were washed, but ye were sanctified, but ye were declared righteous [justified], in the name of the Lord Jesus, and in the Spirit of our God.

So what are hear you saying is that some are justified and sanctified in Christ. But others are only justified in Christ because they have been good enough to be sancified in Christ.
Is that correct?

couldn't get your statement I'm sorry

 

[jonahmano]

First of all this is a parable, and parables can only be taken so far. Secondly it is the presence or absence of "oil" that differentiated them. Oil is symbolic of the Holy Spirit (1 Jn 2:20,27), and five had the Holy Spirit and five did not. What's the lesson?

In churches and in Christendom today, that are multitudes of "Christians" who are Christians in name only. They "appear" to be Christians, hence "virgins" in the eyes of the world. But they do not have the indwelling Holy Spirit. Therefore they are not in the Body of Christ. At the Rapture they will be left behind.

And "automatic" may not be a word in the Bible, but for our purposes today, it can mean a lot. Those who are truly saved are automatically in the Body of Christ. So don't dismiss that word and say "Oh, it is not found in Scripture". That is hardly the point.

The infilling of the Holy Ghost is not automatic. I think JLB explained you clearly about an incident happened in the book of Acts

"Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" So they said to him, "We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." Acts 19:2


And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. Acts 19:6


Just accepting Jesus Christ as the Saviour according Ephesians 2:8-9 and then confessing the salvation statement according to Romans 10:11 and just go on your way without even giving ample time in building your spirit is not in line with automatic infilling of the Holy Ghost.

I heard a statement from Rev Bill Graham which is very much fitting to this subject

"Being a Christian is more than just an instantaneous conversion; it is a daily process whereby you grow to be more and more like Christ"

 

[Deborah13]

couldn't get your statement I'm sorry

Well if one is justified they are made righteous (just).
If they are sanctified they holy.

You I think, said not all believers would allowed into the city. Is that correct?
What would keep them from being allowed in the city if they are believers who are justified and sanctified in Christ?

 

[jonahmano]

Yes, all ten bridesmaids were virgins, but none were Christians because in a marriage context that title is reserved for Jesus' Bride. Rather the bridesmaids represent the two endtime options available to faithful Jews awaiting the promised Bridegroom: wise acceptance that their Messiah has taken a bride other than themselves, or foolish discouragement and a return to them that sell to buy for themselves. Unfortunately by this time the mark of the beast will be required to buy or sell, so that if they return having bought anything they will be rejected.

The denominations within Christianity are not divisions, any more than your own limbs are divided from the rest of you. The protocols which differentiate denominations are not in Christian fundamentals, but are about extraneous things which specialize these parts of Jesus' body to better preform the certain tasks assigned them for a certain time and place. These tasks are all important, and just because some may seem more glorious to God, especially to those entrusted with them, than the more mundane, doesn't mean those less celebrated will be left behind. By Grace we Christians are all saved, lest we revert to a works based salvation?

Don't agree with your indirect mocking of work based salvation. There is nothing called work as you mention. When we sit in prayer, it's by grace and faith we come before his presence. There aren't always goose bumps every time or real literal manifestation of God. We believe that God is in the midst of us. In the same way when we meditate in the word of God. it's a work according to you because we take time from our 24 hour routine schedule and meditate in His word, here also grace and faith come into prominence, we believe what we meditate by faith. We ask for his grace to make us believe in what it's written. So every act which you think as work we do it by grace and faith then how can you say that it's a work based salvation.

It's nothing but misleading and weakening the body of Christ. Didn't find any grace preacher encouraging people to spend time with the God. Even Jesus Christ was an example for us. He used to fast, pray, meditate in the Word even being a God himself.

 

[Deborah13]

"Being a Christian is more than just an instantaneous conversion; it is a daily process whereby you grow to be more and more like Christ"

That is Christ sanctifying the believer.

 

[jonahmano]

Well if one is justified they are made righteous (just).
If they are sanctified they holy.

You I think, said not all believers would allowed into the city. Is that correct?
What would keep them from being allowed in the city if they are believers who are justified and sanctified in Christ?

No I didn't say that. I said those who watchfully wait for his coming will take the first flight and rest all who just believe that Jesus is their personal saviour and do nothing will face persecution and get saved in the end.

 

[jonahmano]

That is Christ sanctifying the believer.

Yeah when will He do it? I think only when we are yielded to him. When we know him more and more. When we surrender ourselves to him leaving the devil our father and be joined to our Groom which is Christ

 

[childeye]

I will answer this here so it will hopefully add clarity to what we are attempting to do.

I agree with what you posted above. The point of the guidelines are that if you are going to make a statement that is to be identified as your understanding, then back up your statement with the scripture reference(s) that apply. For example, in the following post, you make some general statements counter to the OP. Where's the scripture to support you opposing viewpoint, understanding, or interpretation?

First off WIP, I really didn't expect you to respond to this. I feel that the only reason you have, is because you believe in what you are wanting to accomplish with the guidelines and you are a thoughtful person. I assure you that I respect that. I understand that you would like some scripture provided to support any belief. That may be extra work, but it is a reasonable request if in fact those beliefs were inspired by scripture. But the point of my post 21 was to say that this is not always possible. Why? Because I see the semantics in words which makes the task you ask problematic. I can't help that.

Take this post of mine that you provided as an example:
Seems to me there is a misunderstanding of what scripture means by faith through grace. Grace is not letting people get away with sin, as it seems is being implied in the op. Faith is not believing in Jesus as the Christ, and then sinning without any concern for how you are hurting others by doing so. Grace means by God's benevolence and forbearance. Faith means to trust in His Character. The opposite of grace is by your own self determination of will, as in you earned it. The opposite of faith is distrust or cynicism, skepticism. Hence no one is saved without God's grace which is seen in the Christ that was sent, and by faith in the Christ as the True Character of God.

The first line of this post is addressing the presence of semantics in words. There is no scripture that would support this fact. It is just inherent in all languages. I then say what grace is not and what faith is not for the purpose of pointing out that the op seems to be implying that they are those things. Of course scripture doesn't apply to this matter since I may or may not be wrong about what the author of the thread is meaning to imply with the terms. Finally I say what I think grace and faith mean to me, which is my personal interpretation of what are behind the authors of scriptures sentiments when they uses the terms.

Scripture does say that faith is the evidence of things hoped for and not yet seen, Hebrews 11:1. But if I hope I can fornicate with many women and be forgiven is this faith? Semantics, go figure.
So when Christ says to believe in him, I take it to mean he is speaking about trusting in him. There is no scripture to support that, but it is my heartfelt understanding of what he means when he says it.

Then there is grace. Scripture never identifies what grace means that I am aware of. Many will say it means unmerited favor, but yet scripture will say God gives grace to the humble implying that the humble merit his grace. Semantics, go figure.

But if your willing, I am open for suggestions on what scriptures I could have used to make my points of what the words mean according to my interpretation and I will stand corrected. Apart from that, I am always going to try do my best to comply with all the guidelines.

 

[Obadiah]

childeye , the new guidelines are just that, new. They are the result of a joint effort and there may be some tweaking needed just as the general ToS gets tweaked from time to time as situations come up. For the sake of not hijacking this thread, perhaps you could bring this issue up in a Questions & Suggestions for CFnet Staff thread so we can all discuss it further. I think that would be the appropriate place to do this.

 

[Malachi]

The infilling of the Holy Ghost is not automatic. I think JLB explained you clearly about an incident happened in the book of Acts
"Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" So they said to him, "We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." Acts 19:2

There is a difference between the GIFT of the Holy Ghost (Acts 2:38; 10:44,45) which then becomes the "indwelling Holy Spirit" (Rom 8:9) and the fulness or "filling" of the Holy Spirit (Acts 4:31) which enables believers to proclaim the Gospel boldly, and be fully controlled by the Spirit (be spiritual rather than carnal) (1 Cor 2:10-16).

Coming back to Acts 19:2 (context is everything) you will notice that these disciples of John the Baptist had not heard of the Holy Spirit (the full Gospel message had not been preached to them), therefore they had not received THE GIFT of the Holy Ghost. Therefore Paul laid hands on them and they received this gift (see all of Acts 19:1-7).

And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. Acts 19:6

On the other hand, on the day of Pentecost all the Jews gathered in Jerusalem not only heard about the GIFT of the Holy Ghost (Acts 2:28) but they received that gift, therefore they were baptized. I trust you can see the difference. Today, if the true Gospel is preached, then the GIFT of the Holy Ghost must also be preached.

Just accepting Jesus Christ as the Saviour according Ephesians 2:8-9 and then confessing the salvation statement according to Romans 10:11 and just go on your way without even giving ample time in building your spirit is not in line with automatic infilling of the Holy Ghost.

Unless you can provide Scripture to contradict Scripture (which will never happen) it is time you simply believe God and stop trying to "figure out" salvation -- which is purely A GIFT of God's grace.

I heard a statement from Rev Bill Graham which is very much fitting to this subject -- "Being a Christian is more than just an instantaneous conversion; it is a daily process whereby you grow to be more and more like Christ"

With all due respect to Billy Graham, he should have explained this scripturally so that there could be no misunderstanding. There are in fact THREE TENSES to salvation --(1) we have been saved (justification), (2) we are being saved (sanctification), and (3) we shall be saved (glorification). What Graham referred to was sanctification -- becoming more like Christ. What he should have added is if you have received Christ you are already JUSTIFIED (righteous in God's eyes, which means perfect with the perfection of Christ on you as the robe of righteousness).