Gun Control in the USA

[Vanguard]

I first want to say that my prayers are with everyone involved with the tragedy that happened in Connecticut. There are no words that can describe that event. I only pray that God heals their hearts and accepts the dearly departed into His arms and loving embrace. I have a 4 year old son and can't even begin to imagine their anguish.

<moment of personal silence and prayer>

I wanted to talk about gun control because it will dominate our news for the next several weeks and months to come. Some people are calling for an outright ban on all guns in the USA. While it may sound good in theory, it is not feasible. Let me explain...

The US Constitution grants the citizens the right to own guns. It would require Congress to amend the Constitution, and that won't happen. Supporting such a measure would mean political suicide for many of the Reps and Senators. An armed citizenry can keep a centralized government in check, so that a country does not collapse into a dictatorship. If (a very big if) it happened, states would secede from the Union.

Banning guns completely would only affect the law abiding citizens for decades to come. Criminals do not care about the law, that's why they are criminals. It's not like they are going to walk into the police station and hand over their illegal, stolen, black market bought guns. If you take away the protective means of a citizen, the criminals will have a field day and free reign on their victims.

The economic impact of a complete ban would be crippling. Putting companies like Smith & Wesson out of business only hurts our already fragile economy. 100s of 1000s of people work for firearm or ammunition based companies in the USA. For those companies to fold means those people can't pay their mortgage, can't put food on the table, can't pay their bills. Schools, churches and local communities would lose charitable contributions that several of those companies make. The education system alone would lose millions. Small towns could go belly up.

Gun control focus does not need to be on punishing law abiding citizens. It needs to be on making sure criminals don't ever get out of prison if they are armed with a gun when they commit a crime. Life without parole, no exceptions.

You also need to consider that these types of acts are not what a normal person would do. Every single shooter that does something like this is not mentally stable. There was something going on in their head. Unfortunately if someone like that wants to kill people, nothing can prevent it. However, the number of victims can be limited if someone else is armed and takes down the killer.

A gun by itself is harmless. It is nothing more than a paperweight. I can lock and load any of my guns, remove the safeties, lay them down and they will NEVER do anything other than sit there. It takes someone actually pulling the trigger to make them fire. Don't blame the gun, blame the person behind the trigger. Speaking of safeties, the guns used in Connecticut belonged to the shooter's mother, who had them legally. Unfortunately she did not keep them locked in a gun safe.

I was army infantry. I am a cop. I see gun violence almost daily. I still have not changed my opinion that the law abiding citizens need to be armed. In my opinion, gun control is being able to hit your target and stopping the threat.

Afterthought: if you try the Biblical route, I believe in the NASB translation that the commandment is not "Thou shalt not kill," but rather "You shall not murder." Self defense or the defense of another is justified.

 

[Kaliani]

IMHO, based on the rise of gun-related violence, people need to admit that they haven't been good stewards of gun ownership.

And that's not something a Govt. can impose.

Speaking of America specifically now, the economic benefits of gun ownership are clear, as posted above.

What is not so clear are the social benefits.

America is already (in?)famous for its individualism. Is the presence of guns turning it into isolationist social disconnect, and are the shootouts a response to that? I think so.

 

[Kaliani]

P.S. This is not a unique problem peculiar to America. All countries have this problem in varying degrees. American incidents just happen to be the ones that usually dominate the news.

 

[duari91]

I'll chime in as someone who lives in one of the most liberal states (California), with some of the most strict gun control laws. As of September 2012, Californians are no longer to OPEN carry of ANY kind. Open carry pistols were banned last year, as long rifles were banned this year. It is next to impossible to get a closed carry permit as well. A majority of the time, the people who vote on these laws live outside of the effective areas. In other words, they live in areas that are not heavily effected with crime. Because of this, they rely on evidence provided by the proposition parties. It is unfortunate, but the anti-gun associations have in fact lied about this evidence.

There is not 1 city, town, county, or region that has a lowered violent crime rate with gun bans. In fact, violent crime is the lowest in the least strict gun zones. Did any of the CA bans stop gang wars, gang killings, armed robberies, ect? NO, in fact they have increased. Los Angeles always prides itself lately, saying we have lowered the "crime" rate down to where it was in the 70's. However, they fail to mention that the victim less crimes have lowered, and the violent crimes have raised. If I had 250 dollars in my pocket, I could drive to LA and buy an unregistered handgun in about an hour or two. So much those laws have done eh? Hell, they could completely ban guns here, and I could still get an illegal firearm within hours. If I wanted to blast a theater full of people, I could find the means to do it quite easily. Ban or no ban. Criminals are criminals for a reason, they break the law. What idiot criminal will go through registering a gun when it could compromise what they do? Do you think Los Angeles gang members abide by the closed carry/open carry permit laws? If you do, you are one ignorant individual.

Let's put this into a little scenario. Let's say you had knowledge of a shooting that will occur in the future. You also have the ability to arm yourself and your friends with hand guns. Would you decide to attend this event armed, or unarmed? If you choose unarmed, would you be able to tell the victims family that there loved ones deserved to die because "guns are dangerous"? You can't rely on the police to protect everyone. There would be no crime if they could. That massacre at the school wouldn't of happened if they could! This is why we need to have the right to carry and keep arms! So that the 1 out of 50 men lawfully carrying a fire arm can defend you against the crazies out there. It is better to have a shoot out, than a massacre. No?

I don't want to see one person sit there and tell me they need to un arm me, so they can feel safe. Because if the time comes, I wan't to be able to protect my daughter, and protect them as well!

 

[Mike]

Okay, I'll weigh in. And I'll preface this by stating clearly that I consider myself a very conservative Christian both fiscally and socially. But this has long been an area that I part ways from most conservatives. It's not a knee jerk reaction to the incident in Connecticut or any single event.

I can't speak to other cultures as well, but here in America, we have an obsession with death and violence. I lean against the death penalty. Socially we have violent video games and movies. Our society does not respect the sanctity of life, and I believe legalizing abortion and its acceptance of evolution has contributed heavily to this. Whatever the reason, we have raised a few generations where going into a building packed with firearms and explosives is even conceivable.

I don't believe anything will changed until there is a huge revival in this nation. We need to embrace biblical values. We need to stop glorifying and romanticising violence.

Though I believe nothing will cure this seemingly increase in violent acts, I believe we can do our part by not advocating for many kinds of guns. I wouldn't have them all banned, but anything besides hunting equipment and single-shot handguns should be dealt with.

I've considered all the opposing points: only outlaws will have guns, the black market will surge, etc., but I tend to think we need to address the message we send by saying guns are romantic, heroic, or even acceptable. Our land needs healing. Our people need the Lord. Personally, I need a society where I don't have to explain to my children why this kind of violence happens.

I respect our Constitution immensely, but I'm not sure our forefathers ever conceived of their country would be as violent as it is within, toward each other, neighbor toward neighbor.

 

[seagullplayer]

Cain didn't need a gun. The problem is a problem of the heart, it is the fallen state of man.
It is sure to grow worst as time draws near.

We need our families back! One man, one woman raising their own kids.

You may not think these issues are related, but I believe they are. As the family unit continues to disappear so do the morals we hold.
We learn respect for others and discipline at home. But when mom and dad have no respect or discipline for themselves, neither will the kids.
There are more and more disconnected adults because of how they grew up.

You can't argue that people who kill like this are mentally disturbed, but in an intact and healthy family this is discovered earlier and can be dealt with in a manner that offers a much better chance for a healthy outcome for everyone involved.

Am I saying the problem would go away if everyone had a great home life? Not in this fallen world, I am just saying that an intact God fearing family is the best place for anyone to grow up. And is the best place to learn morals and have a proper sense of self worth.

We prayed for the parents of these children yesterday at Church, I can't imagine the loss they must feel right now. I know that their only hope lies in Christ, and the only chance for peace about this comes from Him.

I also pray for those that aborted babies last week. Those children where murdered and never given a chance at life, no gun was used to kill them.

 

[phantom309]

I have to agree with the lunacy of the rationale behind gun bans.

Crystal meth,cocaine (in all its variants) and other drugs were deemed dangerous and illegal..last I checked it sure hasnt stopped anyone from using,so why do we think this will work with guns?

Laws dont magically bind the criminal from doing harm to others.Take guns away and well see more stabbings.Ban the knives away and well likely see pyrotechnic displays.On and on it goes.If someone is dead set on a murder then they will achieve that.The means are abundant.What we face now isnt a problem of the weapon,but a growing depravity of the mind.Society would have us believe that absolute truth as it relates to morals is an antiquated ideal,laughable to those who deem themselves a tad more intelligent than us.But what do we know,right?Were just the uninformed and stubbornly traditional.

Duari made some very valid points concerning crime statistics in unarmed areas,as well as the fact that the police cannot protect us at all times.I can personally verify that after having spent some time as an EMT.I couldnt possibly count how many calls we ran in which response times ranged from 3 minutes to 15 or 20.Anyone here who has ever been in a fistfight can tell you that alot can happen in that time frame.As populations rise these call times grow as the already strained police,fire and EMS resources try to keep up with call volumes.There were even times in our mid-size city when all units were on calls or dropping off at hospitals,which left no ambulances what-so-ever to respond to a call.

We also tend to forget about what happens when disaster strikes.Be it a hurricane,tornado,winter storm,extended power outage,etc..the outcomes are usually the same if the events are severe enough.When things first kick in theres a run on the stores.Food and water fly off the shelves overnight.Local gas reserves are sapped to fill vehicles and power generators.Things are usually tame for the first week,but when bellies are empty and mouths get dry people get a bit crazy.Look at what happened during Katrina..looters/rioters were out in full force.People couldnt dial 911 to get help.The govt was too busy trying to re-establish the infrastructure and take care of other things.Individual problems were put on the back burner.There were rapes,murders,robberies,home invasions and general lawlessness.When the military rolled in to get control of things they even went door to door confiscating firearms.And still the chaos continued until things lined out normally.

Let some of these anti-gunners get into a situation such as this,along with their families.I would love to see how fast that opinion would change when confronted with a very real and immediate threat to themselves and family.I understand those who are pacifist by nature..violent conflicts are ugly and the outcome never palatable.There are,however,times when the use of physical force is the only deterrent to another mans will to do us harm.We cant all continue to be punished and liberties taken for the deliberate evil acts of the statistical minority defined as criminals.

 

[Mike S]

Okay, I'll weigh in. And I'll preface this by stating clearly that I consider myself a very conservative Christian both fiscally and socially. But this has long been an area that I part ways from most conservatives. It's not a knee jerk reaction to the incident in Connecticut or any single event.

I can't speak to other cultures as well, but here in America, we have an obsession with death and violence. I lean against the death penalty. Socially we have violent video games and movies. Our society does not respect the sanctity of life, and I believe legalizing abortion and its acceptance of evolution has contributed heavily to this. Whatever the reason, we have raised a few generations where going into a building packed with firearms and explosives is even conceivable.

I don't believe anything will changed until there is a huge revival in this nation. We need to embrace biblical values. We need to stop glorifying and romanticising violence.

Though I believe nothing will cure this seemingly increase in violent acts, I believe we can do our part by not advocating for many kinds of guns. I wouldn't have them all banned, but anything besides hunting equipment and single-shot handguns should be dealt with.

I've considered all the opposing points: only outlaws will have guns, the black market will surge, etc., but I tend to think we need to address the message we send by saying guns are romantic, heroic, or even acceptable. Our land needs healing. Our people need the Lord. Personally, I need a society where I don't have to explain to my children why this kind of violence happens.

I respect our Constitution immensely, but I'm not sure our forefathers ever conceived of their country would be as violent as it is within, toward each other, neighbor toward neighbor.

Mike,

I respect you opinion greatly, and I agree we need a cultural and spiritual revival in our country, but I don't jump so quickly to a gun control solution...and I live in Connecticut and have ties to some of the people directly affected. It doesn't do any good to pretend that taking guns away from people who did not commit this crime, and banning types of guns that were not used in this crime, is an appropriate response to this crime.

When all is said and done, we'll find that this young-man-turned-killer had a motive (there's always a motive)...and it won't make any sense to us. He was profoundly troubled. An evil that most of us will never understand came into his life.

 

[Mike]

Mark, as I said, this is not a knee jerk response to last Friday. I've felt this way for a long time. Perhaps it is because I've never been personally effected by an incident where a gun would have been useful. Maybe my view would change if it did.

In my heart this is deeper than what would or wouldn't have avoided any act of violence. Aside from the Lord, the psyche of our nation and its approval of guns seems to be at the heart of the matter.

 

[faeriecat]

All very well spoken, thought out messages.

We do need to value life better. We do need to teach respect. We do need to lower the violence seen on tv/movies/video games. Long term that will help, some. There will always be evil souls though. Same day as Sandy Hook, a person went on a stabbing spree in a Chinese elementary school. No gun required.

The police respond as best they can, but with all the budget short falls and cuts there's no way they can keep up now. I lived in this tiny town in northern Maine, we didn't even HAVE a police department. We had to wait around for the county sheriff/deputy to show up. In a county the size of Connecticut, how long do you think the response times are? Not minutes, that's for sure.

I have always believed that the best gun control is just that, learning to control it. Lock it up. Know how to use that weapon you have. Just like drivers ed, when you learn how to control that 1 ton or more weapon you're driving on the roads, knowing how to use -- and when to use -- that weapon is important.

 

[Aardverk]

..........Take guns away and well see more stabbings.Ban the knives away and well likely see pyrotechnic displays.On and on it goes.If someone is dead set on a murder then they will achieve that.The means are abundant.............

I find that absolutely undeniable. If he hasn't a gun, the 'madman' can use a bow, a sword, a knife, a baseball bat, a hammer etc.

There can never be an end to these 'mad' mass killings because weapons are always available and even a fist will kill small children. What is needed is to recognize and help the 'madman'. They are not really mad, they are thoroughly dissatisfied with the way they have been treated (or think they have been treated) and they are, in some way 'getting their own back'.

I have no idea what schools are really like these days but every film and TV drama I have ever seen portrays students being bullied, teased, belittled and worse through ALL levels of education. We even see some such childish behavior here! THOSE STUDENT VICTIMS are the people who come back later and commit atrocities as a perverted revenge for the way they have been treated. A large part of the cure is stopping the childish behavior that is part of the American culture. It has some pretty serious consequences!

Maybe there is a case for banning fully automatic weapons. You would only 'need' one if you knew that you were in a 'war' and I don't think gang-wars and the like should count. It is probably not pleasant being a law enforcement officer and finding yourself out-gunned by the bad guys.

 

[Nick]

Well I haven't weighed in on one of these for a while.

I used to be pro-gun control. And in some places, like Australia, it seems to have worked and I still am pro gun control in my home country (although it would be nice to go hunting, and the like). But...the culture here is different to that of the US, and the problem need to be tackled differently. It's obvious that the 2nd amendment has had a large part in the so-called God-given right to keep a militia for self defence. That was written over 200 years ago, in a very different context. Looking at the situation from that angle alone, the 2nd amendment should be removed.

But it gets way more complicated. As Mike said, it's an issue of the heart, and not only the hearts of individuals, but the heart of the country. This whole gun-thing and violence seems to have been ingrained into Americans for many generations, and a law change to take away guns is not going to change that, because of the black market. This is kind of a problem in Australia, with people home-making guns, although they are not reliable and are probably more dangerous to the shooter. In America, there really does need to be a cultural revival, and I really don't see this happening at all.

So (at least in the context of the US) I have changed my views. I'm not really pro-gun control, but I'm not sure of what the solution is, except for places to have better security. One thing I will say is, a ban on automatic weapons is certainly in order, including assault rifles. No-one should need an automatic or high-powered weapon like that. If a crackdwon like this is to take place, it will involve a lot of spending. That will be an interesting story to follow, for sure.

 

[Eugene]

I am a cop. I see gun violence almost daily. I still have not changed my opinion that the law abiding citizens need to be armed. In my opinion, gun control is being able to hit your target and stopping the threat.

Thanks for your service. This is interesting since a detective was interviewed on Fox news and he made the comment that the principle of that school should have been armed. My question is where do we stop? Why not have the teachers, janitors, etc. also carry weapons? I would near guarantee that Adam Lanza would have had second thoughts before entering a classroom with 20 children carrying loaded pistols.

I live in a state having concealed weapons permits. I believe the intention was to deter crime since private citizens would come to the aid of others in emergencies; it doesn't work and James Holmes was just charged with 24 counts of first degree murder in the Colorado Movie shootings - two counts for each victim if the news I read is correct. Where were the gun toting freedom fighters when the bullets began flying? Running for their lives. Our police again had to be called in.

Brother, I'm just griping and it is going to change nothing. Every such incident of a citizen gone nuts just incites more bills before congress to close more loopholes. Next thing you know, they'll be going after drunk drivers, and allowing marijuana. I do hope you realize I'm pulling your leg a bit.
:waving

 

[Mike S]

Well I haven't weighed in on one of these for a while.

I used to be pro-gun control. And in some places, like Australia, it seems to have worked and I still am pro gun control in my home country (although it would be nice to go hunting, and the like). But...the culture here is different to that of the US, and the problem need to be tackled differently. It's obvious that the 2nd amendment has had a large part in the so-called God-given right to keep a militia for self defence. That was written over 200 years ago, in a very different context. Looking at the situation from that angle alone, the 2nd amendment should be removed.

But it gets way more complicated. As Mike said, it's an issue of the heart, and not only the hearts of individuals, but the heart of the country. This whole gun-thing and violence seems to have been ingrained into Americans for many generations, and a law change to take away guns is not going to change that, because of the black market. This is kind of a problem in Australia, with people home-making guns, although they are not reliable and are probably more dangerous to the shooter. In America, there really does need to be a cultural revival, and I really don't see this happening at all.

So (at least in the context of the US) I have changed my views. I'm not really pro-gun control, but I'm not sure of what the solution is, except for places to have better security. One thing I will say is, a ban on automatic weapons is certainly in order, including assault rifles. No-one should need an automatic or high-powered weapon like that. If a crackdwon like this is to take place, it will involve a lot of spending. That will be an interesting story to follow, for sure.

The Supreme Court has made it crystal clear that the 2nd Amendment guarantees a natural right that IS NOT restricted to maintaining a militia, it's an INDIVIDUAL right. And it is NOT restricted to what someone else thinks a person needs a gun for, so, it's not about militia, it's not about hunting, it's not about target practice. It's about a person's right to self-defense as he understands it.

 

[Nick]

Did the shooter take his own life, as they usually do?

Yes.

 

[Vanguard]

IMHO, based on the rise of gun-related violence...

It's not that gun related violence is on the rise per se, but that the age of the internet makes it instantly reportable and viewable, giving the illusion that it is becoming more rampant. Having said that, yes as gun owners it is our responsibility to make sure that our guns are secure in our homes. Trigger locks, barrel cables, gun safes, removal of ammo from magazines, etc. can be done.

I also want to point out that very few people actually own full auto weapons. In the USA, you have to have a Class 3 FFL (federal firearm license) for those. Full auto means you hold the trigger back and the gun cycles automatically and rapidly empties the magazine. Semi auto means every time you squeeze the trigger a round is fired, which is what most people have. Big difference.

Others want to ban the size of magazines. They say that you don't need a 50 round double-drum attached to your AR-15 rifle. Speculative and assumptive. I can swap magazines in my AR-15 in less than 2 seconds when I am rigged in my cop gear. 10 round, 20 round, 30 round, drums, etc... doesn't really matter. If someone is intent on doing something, they will come prepared.

Incidentally more people are killed in wrecks than they are by guns (in the USA). Should we ban cars?
Tobacco causes more deaths each year than DUIs, drugs, wrecks, murders and suicides combined. Should we ban tobacco?
These are obviously rhetorical questions.

 

[Fedusenko]

[Southern draw] My finger is all the gun control I need.

 

[Free]

Okay, I'll weigh in. And I'll preface this by stating clearly that I consider myself a very conservative Christian both fiscally and socially. But this has long been an area that I part ways from most conservatives. It's not a knee jerk reaction to the incident in Connecticut or any single event.

I can't speak to other cultures as well, but here in America, we have an obsession with death and violence. I lean against the death penalty. Socially we have violent video games and movies. Our society does not respect the sanctity of life, and I believe legalizing abortion and its acceptance of evolution has contributed heavily to this. Whatever the reason, we have raised a few generations where going into a building packed with firearms and explosives is even conceivable.

I don't believe anything will changed until there is a huge revival in this nation. We need to embrace biblical values. We need to stop glorifying and romanticising violence.

Though I believe nothing will cure this seemingly increase in violent acts, I believe we can do our part by not advocating for many kinds of guns. I wouldn't have them all banned, but anything besides hunting equipment and single-shot handguns should be dealt with.

I've considered all the opposing points: only outlaws will have guns, the black market will surge, etc., but I tend to think we need to address the message we send by saying guns are romantic, heroic, or even acceptable. Our land needs healing. Our people need the Lord. Personally, I need a society where I don't have to explain to my children why this kind of violence happens.

I respect our Constitution immensely, but I'm not sure our forefathers ever conceived of their country would be as violent as it is within, toward each other, neighbor toward neighbor.

Well put, Mike, and I agree. There is an unnatural obsession with violence and guns which has created an atmosphere of fear, which then causes people to think they need guns. It really is rather circular. I wouldn't say such an atmosphere was started by gun companies themselves, but I'm sure they do make a tidy profit from it all.

In Canada we have gun control but by going through the proper process, one can buy a handgun. It seems in the US that there are just far too many guns and that they are too easy to purchase (although it likely varies by state and I don't know what that process might all involve).

I would be entirely in favor of a complete ban on handguns and semi-automatic and automatic guns, except for the police and military. The only reason for those types of weapons is to hurt or kill people, the semi and full auto being meant to inflict the maximum amount of damage in the shortest possible time.

If these weapons are then getting on the street, you know there is a problem either at the gun manufacturer or within the police or military. You find the source of the leak and crush it.

Do people kill people? Yes, of course. But it is significantly easier with a gun than any other accessible weapon. Personally, I would rather confront someone that has a knife. Grab a chair or any other numerous objects and fight back. With a gun not only is that not likely a real possibility, bullets travel far, travel fast, and there can be many.

 

[Vanguard]

I wouldn't have them all banned, but anything besides hunting equipment and single-shot handguns should be dealt with.

I missed this from earlier. I'll first say that I agree that there is too much violence in our video games, movies, TV shows, comic books, etc. I grew up watching cartoons like G.I. Joe, Transformers, Thundercats, He-Man, etc. No one ever died in those cartoons. The bad guys were beaten in the end and all was well.

To address a single shot handgun, that only gives you one chance, and you better make sure you hit the target. Miss, and you become subject to whatever physical punishment the other person can dish out. A shotgun with buckshot is the best home defense weapon. Point and shoot.

While I like the idea of certain restrictions, some people hunt with a handgun (revolver) and those can hold 6+ rounds. Wording would have to be VERY careful, as someone will always find a loophole around it. Then comes the question of semi-auto handguns and competition shooters. Would you want to restrict a gun that held 17+1 rounds of 9mm that was used for competitions?

Just last night I worked a case where a 93 year old female was asleep in her bed. She woke up to the sound of someone breaking a window and knocking around in her living room. She got a .22 pistol out of her night stand just as the would be robber/burglar kicked in her bedroom door. She fired twice, hitting him both times. He fled the scene. Without a gun, she would have been subject to whatever he wanted to do.

While I agree that there is not a rational reason why citizen John Smith needs an AR-15 (or any other assault rifle) with a HOLO optic, extended magazines, foregrips, accessory rail and laser sight, I also don't see a rational reason for anyone to have a Ferrari, Porsche, Lamborghini, etc. People like "stuff" and that stuff comes in all kinds of shapes, sizes and price tags.

Speaking of cars, I'd be for restricting all vehicles that use public roads to a maximum of 65mph. A governor comes from the factory, can't be removed, and anyone caught modifying a vehicle to go faster than 65mph spends 20 years in prison. Vehicles kill more people per year than guns...and speed is a major factor.

 

[Mike S]

I would be entirely in favor of a complete ban on handguns and semi-automatic and automatic guns, except for the police and military. The only reason for those types of weapons is to hurt or kill people, the semi and full auto being meant to inflict the maximum amount of damage in the shortest possible time.

Fortunately, the right to bear arms is a Constitutionally protected inalienable right, and not subject to what someone else thinks is a good reason or need to possess them.