Had a jehovah witness show up at my place today....

[GodsGrace]

They have rewritten the KJV Bible way back when they began to back up their own teachings. One would not see how they have changed one word in a sentence to give it a false meaning unless they are showed. My sister was oe a long time ago and got out from under them and showed me how they distorted the Bible.

I had a friend many years ago who used to be a JW and then became Christian.
She and her husband showed me many things which I have since forgotten.

Also, I'd like to add this:

They used to say Jesus was an angel... easy to refute.
Then they said Jesus was a prophet......easy to refute.

NOW they say Jesus is the son of God.
Not so easy to refute! I've tried and there's that thin red line that makes it difficult.

They'll say: Oh Yes, We Believe Jesus is the Son of God.
Don't have a good strategy or that.
Proving Jesus is God doesn't do it.

They keep repeating that He's God in the sense that He's the son.
The way to get them on this is by going to the Triune nature of the Godhead.
But WHO understands that!!

 

[GodsGrace]

They have rewritten the KJV Bible way back when they began to back up their own teachings. One would not see how they have changed one word in a sentence to give it a false meaning unless they are showed. My sister was oe a long time ago and got out from under them and showed me how they distorted the Bible.

Nice to see you back.
I DID miss you.

 

[for_his_glory]

Perhaps unintentionally, but you make a good point.

"Christianity" spans an extremely broad spectrum of beliefs (as do Buddhism and Hinduism, for that matter). At some point, you fall off the edge. New Age groups that promote "Ascended Master Jesus, Chohan of the 2nd Ray," are simply not Christian. Being very familiar with LDS doctrine, I think it's very questionable whether the LDS church is still within the Christian spectrum. Being very familiar with JW doctrine, I would place them at the far end but definitely on the Christian spectrum.

Where I would place any of them is, of course, irrelevant. The issue is where God will place them, which we'll learn some day.

The point your post underscores is that 95% of Christians think that one or more other species of Christians are promoting false doctrine, badly misguided, perhaps even lost. The Mormons and JW are merely the most convenient targets for the venom-spewing that 95% of Christians engage in all the time. The Catholics are, of course, another popular target but somewhat less convenient than the Mormons and JW.

But forget the convenient targets - the thinly or not-so-thinly disguised contempt and disdain that prevails throughout Protestant denominations cannot be denied. The thinly or not-so-thinly disguised contempt and disdain that prevails at Christian Forums and similar sites cannot be denied. I've been a Christian for 47 years, so don't try to tell me it can be denied.

Basically every one of the 41,000 Christian denominations (the last count of which I'm aware) has some level of contempt and disdain for a sizable percentage of the others. You apparently believe 99.5% of the Christians here are badly misguided.

I'm through playing this silly "correct doctrine" game. I will concern myself solely with my own understanding. God will judge who will be saved and who won't. I'm not a betting man, but I would bet that "correct doctrine" will play a far smaller role than most evangelicals expect, and my money would be on sincere Catholics, sincere JW and many other unpopular candidates making the grade.



THAT IS NOT CORRECT. Again, I'm not here to promote or defend the JW. But why not get your information from the JW themselves rather than some "Why the JW are not Christians" site? I just spent 30 minutes reading two lengthy articles on the Resurrection at the JW site: https://www.jw.org/en/publications/books/jesus/final-ministry/tomb-empty-jesus-alive/ and https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/wp20130301/resurrection-of-jesus/ . I literally didn't see one word with which I, in my most conservative Campus Crusade, Southern Baptist mode would have disagreed or with which I disagree now. They believe that, at some point during the Ascension, Jesus essentially "dematerialized" into a purely spiritual body and entered into Heaven. And what do the rest of us think happened - that He sped across the entire universe like an ICBM until he reached the edge, at which point ... what? Or that once He rose out of view, some sort of portal opened and sucked Him in? The exact meaning of the Ascension and "how it worked" are indeed a bit of a mystery that most churches simply ignore. The JW deal with it as described, and I have no problem with their view.

Mark 16:9-19; Acts 1:3; and Acts 1:9 all say Jesus appeared to the multitudes after He was risen from the grave and before He was taken up in the clouds to sit at the right hand of God. The men of Galilee watched Jesus ascend and disappear in the clouds. Does this sound like He was invisible!

BTW, I got this info from a website many years ago, http://www.towerwatch.com/Witnesses/Beliefs/their_beliefs_pfv.htm, and my sister who was deeply involved with the Jehovah Witness Church at one time confirmed what I read plus a few other ex-Jehovah Witness's.

 

[for_his_glory]

Nice to see you back.
I DID miss you.

Ty, it's good to be back. Took some time off to work on some other projects I am done with now.

 

[GodsGrace]

Perhaps unintentionally, but you make a good point.

"Christianity" spans an extremely broad spectrum of beliefs (as do Buddhism and Hinduism, for that matter). At some point, you fall off the edge. New Age groups that promote "Ascended Master Jesus, Chohan of the 2nd Ray," are simply not Christian. Being very familiar with LDS doctrine, I think it's very questionable whether the LDS church is still within the Christian spectrum. Being very familiar with JW doctrine, I would place them at the far end but definitely on the Christian spectrum.

Where I would place any of them is, of course, irrelevant. The issue is where God will place them, which we'll learn some day.

The point your post underscores is that 95% of Christians think that one or more other species of Christians are promoting false doctrine, badly misguided, perhaps even lost. The Mormons and JW are merely the most convenient targets for the venom-spewing that 95% of Christians engage in all the time. The Catholics are, of course, another popular target but somewhat less convenient than the Mormons and JW.

But forget the convenient targets - the thinly or not-so-thinly disguised contempt and disdain that prevails throughout Protestant denominations cannot be denied. The thinly or not-so-thinly disguised contempt and disdain that prevails at Christian Forums and similar sites cannot be denied. I've been a Christian for 47 years, so don't try to tell me it can be denied.

Basically every one of the 41,000 Christian denominations (the last count of which I'm aware) has some level of contempt and disdain for a sizable percentage of the others. You apparently believe 99.5% of the Christians here are badly misguided.

I'm through playing this silly "correct doctrine" game. I will concern myself solely with my own understanding. God will judge who will be saved and who won't. I'm not a betting man, but I would bet that "correct doctrine" will play a far smaller role than most evangelicals expect, and my money would be on sincere Catholics, sincere JW and many other unpopular candidates making the grade.



THAT IS NOT CORRECT. Again, I'm not here to promote or defend the JW. But why not get your information from the JW themselves rather than some "Why the JW are not Christians" site? I just spent 30 minutes reading two lengthy articles on the Resurrection at the JW site: https://www.jw.org/en/publications/books/jesus/final-ministry/tomb-empty-jesus-alive/ and https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/wp20130301/resurrection-of-jesus/ . I literally didn't see one word with which I, in my most conservative Campus Crusade, Southern Baptist mode would have disagreed or with which I disagree now. They believe that, at some point during the Ascension, Jesus essentially "dematerialized" into a purely spiritual body and entered into Heaven. And what do the rest of us think happened - that He sped across the entire universe like an ICBM until he reached the edge, at which point ... what? Or that once He rose out of view, some sort of portal opened and sucked Him in? The exact meaning of the Ascension and "how it worked" are indeed a bit of a mystery that most churches simply ignore. The JW deal with it as described, and I have no problem with their view.

Hi Runner,

I very much agree with mostly everything you've said.
God will not be put into a box and most try to do this.

But is there ANY doctrine Worth fighting for?
I speak to some Christians who believe that they are required to do nothing after salvation because Jesus already "did it all" and they'll go so far as to say that God is offended when we try to help Him. Isn't this a Dangerous way to think since Jesus clearly said that we are to BE something and to DO something?

What about OSAS, eternal security, preservation of the saints?
It's fine for a Christian to believe this who truly wants to be a disciple of Christ and follow God's ways. But what about a new Christian who can be very affected by this and might fall away by believing that he will Always be saved no matter what?

Will God be THAT lenient?

 

[Kidron]

can be very affected by this and might fall away by believing that he will Always be saved no matter what?

Will God be THAT lenient?

-
The Love of God is unconditional.
The acceptance of a person back into God's family, IS conditional.
Its condition is that the blood of Jesus redeems you, and this redemption has one condition.
= Your Faith.
So, once God accepts you because of your faith, then the application of the end result, your salvation, then becomes His domain, His issue to solve.
Not ours.
Your salvation is GOD's issue to solve for you, because only He can.
You cant save yourself, and you cant keep yourself saved.
This is why you need a SAVIOR.

The confusion about OSAS, is based on not understanding that what saved you, is non of you.......Its NOT of you.
Grace, is the manifestation of the Love of God, as a sacrifice on a cross, that is applied to you by God.
This is non of you......this is not of you........you cant do it for yourself.
Eternal life, is exactly the same....its non of you, and all of God, by Christ.
Everything that saves and saved, is all of God and NON of us.
You have a SIN issue, and God has to solve it, or you wont be going to heaven.
So, its your sin, but its God who has to solve it for you.
= The Cross.
Salvation....> Grace.....= is God saying...."i'll take care of your sin and your eternity on the condition that you receive my Son by faith".
So........Once you do, then you did.
Once you do, then you have perfectly and exactly and precisely met the only requirement for God to SAVE YOU... = using the Atonement > The Cross > The Blood of Jesus.

Also.....
The way that God accepts you and me, is that He gives us exactly what makes us acceptable to Himself.....Otherwise, He can't accept you.
So, Salvation is God accepting you based on giving you, "the gift of Righteousness".
This is because you dont have any.
I dont have any.
..........."all our righteousness is as filthy rags" ....
If we had any righteousness of our own, God would not need to give us HIS to accept us, and thereby "save" us.
So the reason that OSAS has to be true, is because this truth is based on the fact of God accepting us based on Him giving us what HE requires to accept us back into the family.
All that OSAS is doing, is agreeing with "Grace" and "The Atonement".
As there is no other way to get into the family of GOD, or remain in it, unless God creates and executes on your behalf, HIS SOLUTION TO YOUR ISSUE that is keeping you out of heaven.
This is why "works" and "enduring" , and all this self effort, is useless to save you, as how could it when you have to be as righteous as God to be accepted by a Holy God.
You're works will never get you there or keep you there because all your works are "filthy rags" when compared to GOD's righteousness.
And that is what you have to remember.....as that is the only comparison .
The only thing that will get you remission of sins and eternal life IN HEAVEN, is the same thing that keeps you there.
God.
The Gift of Righteousness.
= God giving you HIS Righteousness that makes you acceptable to HIM.
And that is why, once you have it, = OSAS.

Remember this scripture?....."the gifts and callings of God are without repentance".
This means, God will never undo it.
Salvation is a Gift.
Eternal life is a Gift.
The Righteousness of God given to you, is a Gift.
"the GIFTS and callings of God, are without repentance".... which means, He wont undo it, for any reason.

 

[Runner]

Hi Runner,

I very much agree with mostly everything you've said.
God will not be put into a box and most try to do this.

But is there ANY doctrine Worth fighting for?
I speak to some Christians who believe that they are required to do nothing after salvation because Jesus already "did it all" and they'll go so far as to say that God is offended when we try to help Him. Isn't this a Dangerous way to think since Jesus clearly said that we are to BE something and to DO something?

What about OSAS, eternal security, preservation of the saints?
It's fine for a Christian to believe this who truly wants to be a disciple of Christ and follow God's ways. But what about a new Christian who can be very affected by this and might fall away by believing that he will Always be saved no matter what?

Will God be THAT lenient?

See my thread in the Apologetics forum, "Give us your absolute bottom-line Christian essentials."

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi thanks thanks

Thanks for the show.
It was nice.
Never seen anything like it!
You are the proud owner of the only female body in the whole world.
And even if there are others,,,
You certainly must have the best looking one.

And you know about the imagination, and all...
What a gal !!

You like tests , I thinky think.
So here's one...
Stop concentrating on the outside since you're not the only one who has one,
And start thinking about the inside since it is UNIQLEY yours!!!

Oh. And it's ok to have the outside too.
No need to show it off once you start respecting yourself.

Also, read Looking for Mr. Goodbar.
It has nothing to do with Christianity but you might find it useful.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Welcome all who knock on your door, especially those who wish to speak to you about God.
Your faith ought to be enough to even resist satan, or else you will be too afraid to even go outside.

I Agree. (1 Pet. 3:15)

 

[Douglas Summers]

I like to go to John 1:1
Their bible says Jesus was a god.
The normal bible says Jesus is God.

I made friends with a couple that came by often. Nice people. I make them tea - they're English.
They don't try to conver me anymore.

I try to get my 2 cents in whenever I can.

Be nice to everyone. It's a good testimony.
We can't change anyone's mind. But the Holy Spirit can if they hear the right words.

Good post.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Perhaps unintentionally, but you make a good point.

"Christianity" spans an extremely broad spectrum of beliefs (as do Buddhism and Hinduism, for that matter). At some point, you fall off the edge. New Age groups that promote "Ascended Master Jesus, Chohan of the 2nd Ray," are simply not Christian. Being very familiar with LDS doctrine, I think it's very questionable whether the LDS church is still within the Christian spectrum. Being very familiar with JW doctrine, I would place them at the far end but definitely on the Christian spectrum.

Where I would place any of them is, of course, irrelevant. The issue is where God will place them, which we'll learn some day.

The point your post underscores is that 95% of Christians think that one or more other species of Christians are promoting false doctrine, badly misguided, perhaps even lost. The Mormons and JW are merely the most convenient targets for the venom-spewing that 95% of Christians engage in all the time. The Catholics are, of course, another popular target but somewhat less convenient than the Mormons and JW.

But forget the convenient targets - the thinly or not-so-thinly disguised contempt and disdain that prevails throughout Protestant denominations cannot be denied. The thinly or not-so-thinly disguised contempt and disdain that prevails at Christian Forums and similar sites cannot be denied. I've been a Christian for 47 years, so don't try to tell me it can be denied.

Basically every one of the 41,000 Christian denominations (the last count of which I'm aware) has some level of contempt and disdain for a sizable percentage of the others. You apparently believe 99.5% of the Christians here are badly misguided.

I'm through playing this silly "correct doctrine" game. I will concern myself solely with my own understanding. God will judge who will be saved and who won't. I'm not a betting man, but I would bet that "correct doctrine" will play a far smaller role than most evangelicals expect, and my money would be on sincere Catholics, sincere JW and many other unpopular candidates making the grade.



THAT IS NOT CORRECT. Again, I'm not here to promote or defend the JW. But why not get your information from the JW themselves rather than some "Why the JW are not Christians" site? I just spent 30 minutes reading two lengthy articles on the Resurrection at the JW site: https://www.jw.org/en/publications/books/jesus/final-ministry/tomb-empty-jesus-alive/ and https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/wp20130301/resurrection-of-jesus/ . I literally didn't see one word with which I, in my most conservative Campus Crusade, Southern Baptist mode would have disagreed or with which I disagree now. They believe that, at some point during the Ascension, Jesus essentially "dematerialized" into a purely spiritual body and entered into Heaven. And what do the rest of us think happened - that He sped across the entire universe like an ICBM until he reached the edge, at which point ... what? Or that once He rose out of view, some sort of portal opened and sucked Him in? The exact meaning of the Ascension and "how it worked" are indeed a bit of a mystery that most churches simply ignore. The JW deal with it as described, and I have no problem with their view.

Anyone who teaches works or that Christ is not the Son of God is another gospel and is under the anathema of God. God does not judge denominations, He judges the person.. God knows those that are His. I have personally seen the Holy Spirit do battle with a group of LDS. They said it was Satan. The rebuke was over the deity of Jesus.

 

[OzSpen]

I'm not trying to be unkind but you may as well as have shut the door in his face as to tell him that.

Please tell him why you have reached that conclusion. What you have said here is your own assertion and does not provide reasons why you said it.

 

[OzSpen]

Because clean living doesn't matter if there are wrong beliefs about core Christian doctrine. John 1:12, John 3:18, Rom. 10:9-13, 1 Cor. 15, and Gal. 1:6-9, among others, show that what we believe about Jesus is absolutely central to salvation.

We simply cannot have wrong beliefs about Jesus and expect to spend eternity with him, no matter how good we think we've lived.

And a non-Trinitarian view of Jesus is a wrong belief about Jesus.

 

[OzSpen]

I like to go to John 1:1
Their bible says Jesus was a god.
The normal bible says Jesus is God.

I made friends with a couple that came by often. Nice people. I make them tea - they're English.
They don't try to conver me anymore.

I try to get my 2 cents in whenever I can.

Be nice to everyone. It's a good testimony.
We can't change anyone's mind. But the Holy Spirit can if they hear the right words.

wondering,

Do you explain to the JWs why their translation of John 1:1 is 'a god' and not according to the correct Greek grammar, '[the] God', where Granville Sharp's Rule is applied?

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

Do you explain to the JWs why their translation of John 1:1 is 'a god' and not according to the correct Greek grammar, '[the] God', where Granville Sharp's Rule is applied?

Oz

Hi Oz,
I don't know about Granville Sharp's Rule.
Will check it out.

I tell them that "a god" could be anything. My car could be "a god".
The Greeks had many gods.

But this is not speaking about THE GOD.
God Almighty, creator of heaven and earth.
Jesus is not a god
He is THE GOD.

They don't believe in the Trinity, this is the problem.
Jesus is the son of God to them, but a created God.
God cannot be created or he is not God.
Only God can create...this is why it's important to understand the trinity.
Can't think of anything else right now.
Sometimes the words just come to me!

One time I showed them about 5 or 6 bibles and how they all had the John 1:1 verse and theirs didn't.

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

Do you explain to the JWs why their translation of John 1:1 is 'a god' and not according to the correct Greek grammar, '[the] God', where Granville Sharp's Rule is applied?

Oz

I just read the rule.
I instinctively knew about it.

It's like saying:
My Father and the King of England...
But it's only ONE PERSON.
My father IS the King of England.

This is how I understand it.
Of course, the way this is written in Titus is used by many to show how Jesus is NOT the second person of the trinity and He is created because they believe the passage (s) is referring to two persons.

P.S.
Thanks for posting it!

 

[OzSpen]

Mark 16:9-19; Acts 1:3; and Acts 1:9 all say Jesus appeared to the multitudes after He was risen from the grave and before He was taken up in the clouds to sit at the right hand of God. The men of Galilee watched Jesus ascend and disappear in the clouds. Does this sound like He was invisible!

BTW, I got this info from a website many years ago, http://www.towerwatch.com/Witnesses/Beliefs/their_beliefs_pfv.htm, and my sister who was deeply involved with the Jehovah Witness Church at one time confirmed what I read plus a few other ex-Jehovah Witness's.

fhg,

There's another group of verses that demonstrates Jesus' appearing to some hundreds of people and early church leaders:

Brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the good news I preached to you. You received it and have put your faith in it. 2 Because you believed the good news, you are saved. But you must hold firmly to the message I preached to you. If you don’t, you have believed it for nothing.

3 What I received I passed on to you. And it is the most important of all. Here is what it is. Christ died for our sins, just as Scripture said he would. 4 He was buried. He was raised from the dead on the third day, just as Scripture said he would be. 5 He appeared to Peter. Then he appeared to the 12 apostles. 6 After that, he appeared to more than 500 brothers and sisters at the same time. Most of them are still living. But some have died. 7 He appeared to James. Then he appeared to all the apostles. 8 Last of all, he also appeared to me. I was like someone who wasn’t born at the right time (1 Cor 15:1-8 NIRV).​

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Hi Oz,
I don't know about Granville Sharp's Rule.
Will check it out.

I tell them that "a god" could be anything. My car could be "a god".
The Greeks had many gods.

But this is not speaking about THE GOD.
God Almighty, creator of heaven and earth.
Jesus is not a god
He is THE GOD.

They don't believe in the Trinity, this is the problem.
Jesus is the son of God to them, but a created God.
God cannot be created or he is not God.
Only God can create...this is why it's important to understand the trinity.
Can't think of anything else right now.
Sometimes the words just come to me!

One time I showed them about 5 or 6 bibles and how they all had the John 1:1 verse and theirs didn't.

wondering,

There's a reasonably good explanation of the Granville Sharp Rule in the Wikipedia article, Granville Sharp. Search for Granville Sharp Rule.

Daniel Wallace, in this article, gives a brief summary of the Rule in this article, said of Granville Sharp:

“His strong belief in Christ’s deity led him to study the Scriptures in the original in order to defend more ably that precious truth ... As he studied the Scriptures in the original, he noticed a certain pattern, namely, when the construction article-noun-και-noun involved personal nouns which were singular and not proper names, they always referred to the same person. He noticed further that this rule applied in several texts to the deity of Jesus Christ.”​

The Greek kai means 'and'.

Now let's take the end of John 1:1 as an example: Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος (SBLGNT). How do we translate kai theos en ho logos? The verb en is the verb 'to be'. Literally it means 'God was the word'. Theos has no definite article but logos has the definite article, ho. So, word-for-word, kai theos en ho logos, means 'and a god/God was the word'. So that JW's are correct!

They would be correct, except for the Granville Sharp Rule.

When the definite article is present in Greek, the normal rule is to translate it as definite. e.g. 'the word'. Without the definite article, the general rule is to translate it indefinitely, e.g. 'a God'.

I'll need to be a Grammar nazi here: How do we know which is the subject of the sentence using the verb, 'was' and which is the predicate nominative in English? We know because of word order in the sentence (generally: subject --> verb to be --> predicate nominative. In Australian (British) grammar, we call the predicate nominative the complement of the sentence. The complement in English means:

A subject complement is the adjective, noun, or pronoun that follows a linking verb. The following verbs are true linking verbs: any form of the verb be [am, is, are, was, were, has been, are being, might have been, etc.], become, and seem. These true linking verbs are always linking verbs (source).​

This is not how we determine subject-verb-complement in Greek. How words are translated and grammatically used in sentences, depends on the endings - called declensions for nouns and conjugations for verbals. Word order in a sentence is not important (except when a word is placed at the beginning of the sentence for emphasis).

So at the end of John 1:1 we determine which is the subject and which is the complement when using the verb to be in 'kai theos en ho logos', by the definite article being dropped from before the complement and the subject determined by the noun accompanied by the article.

Check out the major English translations and you'll find this sentence translated as, 'the Word was God', or 'the Word was [the] God'.

There are a few exceptions to this Granville Sharp Rule.

Put simply:
Granville Sharp searched the Greek NT and found that when we have the construction, definite article--->noun-->and (και)-->verb 'to be'-->noun and the nouns are personal nouns which are singular and not proper names, they always referred to the same person. He noticed further that this rule applied in several texts to the deity of Jesus Christ. John 1:1 is but one example of this.

This is not the only conclusion from the Granville Sharp's investigations.

Enjoy your grammar. Grammar in Aussie schools is in a bad state of disrepair.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

I just read the rule.
I instinctively knew about it.

It's like saying:
My Father and the King of England...
But it's only ONE PERSON.
My father IS the King of England.

This is how I understand it.
Of course, the way this is written in Titus is used by many to show how Jesus is NOT the second person of the trinity and He is created because they believe the passage (s) is referring to two persons.

P.S.
Thanks for posting it!

Wondering,

You got it!

However, that article from Theopedia is a succinct explanation of the Granville Sharp Rule.

Why don't you have a few dot points to raise gently with the next JW who knocks on your door? 'Have you considered....' (include GSR's points).

It's 4.45am here and I must get to packing the final goods in my office as I'm moving to a new villa this Friday. I've sold this 4-bedroom house. I'll be off the air for a little bit.

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

Wondering,

You got it!

However, that article from Theopedia is a succinct explanation of the Granville Sharp Rule.

Why don't you have a few dot points to raise gently with the next JW who knocks on your door? 'Have you considered....' (include GSR's points).

It's 4.45am here and I must get to packing the final goods in my office as I'm moving to a new villa this Friday. I've sold this 4-bedroom house. I'll be off the air for a little bit.

Oz

I think a complement must be an adjective.
It's getting late here too and my mind is not so sharp right now.
I have to understand something really well before I could offer it to someone else.

Will read this through tomorrow morning.

GOOD LUCK Oz.
I think you'll be much better off in a smaller home.
For many reasons...

See you when you get back.