Hades is Sheol

[P31Woman]

Urk, if a person is going to be tormented for eternity they must live for ever. If that is the case they have eternal life. Paul said the gift of God is eternal life. If the wicked are punished eternally they have the gift of God which is eternal life

Jesus said what those who are not born again get is eternal punishment.

Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

 

[P31Woman]

The idea of the immortal soul came into the church from Greek philosophy. It has it's roots in pagan worship, not Judaism of Christianity.

Hey Butch this philosophy is not what we are talking about. Plato believed the soul "preexisted" . That is NOT what we are talking about. I don't believe I have ever head anyone on this forum claim to believe the soul preexisted.

Here is just one verse that speaks to the fact that the scripture teaches us the soul is immortal. The quote from Jesus in the post above this is yet another proof the scriptures teach us the soul is immortal.

Daniel 12:2-3

New International Version (NIV)

2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

[Butch5]

The idea of the immortal soul came into the church from Greek philosophy. It has it's roots in pagan worship, not Judaism of Christianity.

Hey Butch this philosophy is not what we are talking about. Plato believed the soul "preexisted" . That is NOT what we are talking about. I don't believe I have ever head anyone on this forum claim to believe the soul preexisted.

Here is just one verse that speaks to the fact that the scripture teaches us the soul is immortal. The quote from Jesus in the post above this is yet another proof the scriptures teach us the soul is immortal.

Daniel 12:2-3

New International Version (NIV)

2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

Yes, but he also said taught that the soul was immortal. Concerning this verse, everlasting contempt doesn't require and immortal soul. If God has contempt for someone and they die it is still contemp. If God has it it would be eternal contempt because God is eternal. But, that doesn't necessitate that soul of that contempt is alive.

Regarding Mathew 25:46, The passage does not state anything about an immortal soul or spirit, that idea is being inferred from the passage. However, we understand the passage it cannot contradict other Scripture. Sometimes eternal is used to denote the results of something, in this instance the results of the punishment would be eternal. Just as the contempt in the passage from Daniel would be everlasting even if the person wasn't. Sometimes forever is used to denote a long period of time such as here,

KJV Exodus 21:6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever. (Exo 21:6 KJV).

We wouldn't read that think this meant that the man would serve the master for eternity. What if the master entered the Kingdom and the servant didn't?

Jesus also said,

KJV Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Mat 10:28 KJV)

If God destroys both body and soul in Gehenna, then that person is not experiencing eternal punishment. We've got to reconcile passages like this one with those are translated eternal punishment and draw a conclusion. Figures of speech have to be taken into account also.

I mean, I even use forever as figure of speech sometimes. Sometimes people ask me how long I've been doing construction and I'll say forever. It's obvious to the person that I am using forever as a figure of speech to indicate a long time.

 

[P31Woman]

Yes, but he also said taught that the soul was immortal.

You have no clue what I said in that post or how Plato understood that term. I can see you argue points you don't understand.


"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (Matt. 25:46). In this verse, the same word "eternal" is used to describe the punishment of the wicked as well as the eternal life of the believer. The punishment is endless as is the eternal life of the believer. " Matt Slick

Oh and if you want to know who writes for gotquestions you can click on "about" then "about us" at the top of their web page. They have a very good reputation for giving sound bible based answers.

 

[P31Woman]

@Deborah13 knows about soul and spirit too. @Butch5

I was looking at the statement of faith for gotquestions.org This is from that page. I could not help but think of you.

Section 9: Things to Come
We believe in the blessed hope (Titus 2:13), the personal and imminent coming of the Lord Jesus Christ to rapture His saints (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18). We believe in the visible and bodily return of Christ to the earth with His saints to establish His promised millennial kingdom (Zechariah 14:4-11; 1 Thessalonians 1:10; Revelation 3:10, 19:11-16, 20:1-6). We believe in the physical resurrection of all men—the saints to everlasting joy and bliss on the New Earth, and the wicked to eternal punishment in the lake of fire (Matthew 25:46; John 5:28-29; Revelation 20:5-6, 12-13).​

We believe that the souls of believers are, at death, absent from the body and present with the Lord, where they await their resurrection when spirit, soul, and body are reunited to be glorified forever with the Lord (Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 1:23, 3:21; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17). We believe that the souls of unbelievers remain, after death, in conscious misery until their resurrection when, with soul and body reunited, they shall appear at the Great White Throne judgment and shall be cast into the Lake of Fire to suffer everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:41-46; Mark 9:43-48; Luke 16:19-26; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9; Revelation 20:11-15).​

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/faith.html#ixzz2PoX4gunP​

 

[Guest]

Urk, if a person is going to be tormented for eternity they must live for ever. If that is the case they have eternal life. Paul said the gift of God is eternal life. If the wicked are punished eternally they have the gift of God which is eternal life

Well, what do you think eternal life is vs. eternal punishment. Punishment can't be everlasting if you cease to exist. Matthew 25:46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. Also, when you feel emotions inside of you, is that part of your soul? Yes.

 

[Guest]

@Deborah13 knows about soul and spirit too. @Butch5

I was looking at the statement of faith for gotquestions.org This is from that page. I could not help but think of you.

Section 9: Things to Come
We believe in the blessed hope (Titus 2:13), the personal and imminent coming of the Lord Jesus Christ to rapture His saints (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18). We believe in the visible and bodily return of Christ to the earth with His saints to establish His promised millennial kingdom (Zechariah 14:4-11; 1 Thessalonians 1:10; Revelation 3:10, 19:11-16, 20:1-6). We believe in the physical resurrection of all men—the saints to everlasting joy and bliss on the New Earth, and the wicked to eternal punishment in the lake of fire (Matthew 25:46; John 5:28-29; Revelation 20:5-6, 12-13).​

We believe that the souls of believers are, at death, absent from the body and present with the Lord, where they await their resurrection when spirit, soul, and body are reunited to be glorified forever with the Lord (Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 1:23, 3:21; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17). We believe that the souls of unbelievers remain, after death, in conscious misery until their resurrection when, with soul and body reunited, they shall appear at the Great White Throne judgment and shall be cast into the Lake of Fire to suffer everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:41-46; Mark 9:43-48; Luke 16:19-26; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9; Revelation 20:11-15).​

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/faith.html#ixzz2PoX4gunP​

Ty for this, may the Lord bless you with love and strength and purity.

 

[Butch5]

Yes, but he also said taught that the soul was immortal.

You have no clue what I said in that post or how Plato understood that term. I can see you argue points you don't understand.


"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (Matt. 25:46). In this verse, the same word "eternal" is used to describe the punishment of the wicked as well as the eternal life of the believer. The punishment is endless as is the eternal life of the believer. " Matt Slick

　

Matt Slick, really?　

　

Yes it is the same word. As I said, it　can be defined　differently and doesn't always mean eternity. Likewise it can　be the results that eternal　and　not the time frame. Consider this passage from Jude,

Yes, but he also said taught that the soul was immortal.

You have no clue what I said in that post or how Plato understood that term. I can see you argue points you don't understand.


"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (Matt. 25:46). In this verse, the same word "eternal" is used to describe the punishment of the wicked as well as the eternal life of the believer. The punishment is endless as is the eternal life of the believer. " Matt Slick

　

Matt Slick, really?　

　

Yes it is the same word. As I said, it　can be defined　differently and doesn't always mean eternity. Likewise it can　be the results that eternal　and　not the time frame. Consider this passage from Jude,



　


KJV Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Are Sodom and Gomorrha still burning? Or, could it mean the results of their burning is eternal?

How about Babylon?

10 "standing at a distance for fear of her torment, saying,`Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! For in one hour your judgment has come.'

11 "And the merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her, for no one buys their merchandise anymore:

12 "merchandise of gold and silver, precious stones and pearls, fine linen and purple, silk and scarlet, every kind of citron wood, every kind of object of ivory, every kind of object of most precious wood, bronze, iron, and marble;

13 "and cinnamon and incense, fragrant oil and frankincense, wine and oil, fine flour and wheat, cattle and sheep, horses and chariots, and bodies and souls of men.

14 "The fruit that your soul longed for has gone from you, and all the things which are rich and splendid have gone from you, and you shall find them no more at all.

15 "The merchants of these things, who became rich by her, will stand at a distance for fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,

16 "and saying,`Alas, alas, that great city that was clothed in fine linen, purple, and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls!

17 `For in one hour such great riches came to nothing.' Every shipmaster, all who travel by ship, sailors, and as many as trade on the sea, stood at a distance

18 "and cried out when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying,`What is like this great city?'

19 "They threw dust on their heads and cried out, weeping and wailing, and saying,`Alas, alas, that great city, in which all who had ships on the sea became rich by her wealth! For in one hour she is made desolate.'

20 "Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you holy apostles and prophets, for God has avenged you on her!"

21 Then a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, "Thus with violence the great city Babylon shall be thrown down, and shall not be found anymore.

22 "The sound of harpists, musicians, flutists, and trumpeters shall not be heard in you anymore. No craftsman of any craft shall be found in you anymore, and the sound of a millstone shall not be heard in you anymore.

23 "The light of a lamp shall not shine in you anymore, and the voice of bridegroom and bride shall not be heard in you anymore. For your merchants were the great men of the earth, for by your sorcery all the nations were deceived.

24 "And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth."

NKJ Revelation 19:1 After these things I heard a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, "Alleluia! Salvation and glory and honor and power belong to the Lord our God!

2 "For true and righteous are His judgments, because He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication; and He has avenged on her the blood of His servants shed by her."

3 Again they said, "Alleluia! Her smoke rises up forever and ever!" (Rev 18:10-3 NKJ)

The passage says Babylon’s judgment came in one hour and that it shall be found no more. Then it says her smoke rises forever and ever. How does the smoke rise forever and ever if the city dotsn’t exist anymore? If the smoke was actually rising people would see it. It seems this is a figure of speech speaking of the eternality of the destruction and not that the city will actually burn for eternity. The same can be said of the passage Jesus spoke that you quoted. The results of both destinations are eternal.

Also notice that in this passage eternal punishment is contrasted with eternal life. If the punishment is eternal then it’s not contrasted with eternal life as eternal life is necessary for one to suffer eternal punishment. For the contrast to work the punishment has to end. If Jesus is referring to the results then the contrast works




　

Oh and if you want to know who writes for gotquestions you can click on "about" then "about us" at the top of their web page. They have a very good reputation for giving sound bible based answers.

I'm not particularly interested in who it is. I've seen a few answers from the site and they have seen wrought with logical fallacies.