Have I been reading 2 Timothy 3:1-9 wrong?

[Imagican]

I would like to offer something that may perhaps shed a deeper understanding.

Scripture often refers to the 'church' as the 'bride'. A 'bride' is a woman. Isn't it possible and even likely that the reference to 'silly women' may well be a reference to 'churches'? You know, as in 'silly churches'. For it seems strange that the scripture would only mention 'women' when men are just as likely to be approached by 'false prophets' and led astray just as easily as women. And note that after the statement concerning 'silly women', an example is given of Jannes and Jambres and that their 'folly' would be manifest unto all men. No longer using the word women. So isn't it possible that the reference to 'silly women' may well be a reference to 'churches'? And the Bible wasn't written to those that won't read it or would find it to be foolishness. The Bible was written as edification to those that read it and understand it. It means little if anything to 'the world'.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[JLB]

I will rephrase The Body of Christ.

Same thing.

We just don't know what His people are doing in China or India or Africa...

If our perspective is just about our local Church or the Church in the USA, then it is distorted at best.

I believe the Church that He builds is Victorious, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

Man made and man run churches...


JLB

 

[john darling]

MT 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Jesus talked about a situation in which the good and the bad would be allowed to grow together. I think it's like that in "the church". There will be a mixture of sincere and insincere in every group. When it comes to who is the wheat and who are the weeds, all we can really do is look at a person's behavior and compare it to the standards Jesus set for what it means to be his follower.

Jesus also said that we will be judged in the same way that we judge others so I personally have found it's easier to just assume all professing Christians are genuine believers and let their behavior make the distinction (if there is one).

 

[gracenote]

When taken as a complete or unbroken sentence (with comma in mind), this is how I would read it:

For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

So now I ask it: What precisely might he have intended by the words, "captive" "silly" and "woman" being included altogether as one descriptive term of a certain kind of female person?
Who was or is actually "captive"? and likewise "silly"?
Obviously, they "which creep into houses" sound abominable. To be a "captive" means one is held in bondage of some sort.
This has turned out to be a very interesting passage for me to explore. Prayer seems wise to me on this right now.
​

 

[Stan1953]

In this regard you have to go back to 2:14 to start the context, then read on. Interestingly enough, forums like this MAY be what Paul was indirectly referring to?
In any event, yes Paul is referring to teaching that comes from so-called Christians. However in the end only Jesus will be able to separate the sheep from the goats, but we must never forget His voice, by following another voice.

 

[Malachi]

Scripture often refers to the 'church' as the 'bride'. A 'bride' is a woman. Isn't it possible and even likely that the reference to 'silly women' may well be a reference to 'churches'? You know, as in 'silly churches'

If we were to use your suggested method of hermeneutics we could make anything mean anything else. We could play word games with Scripture, and never arrive at the knowledge of the truth, precisely what Paul is warning against. There is no way that Paul would suddenly switch his meaning to "silly churches". And since there is no reference to brides in this passage, that is one more reason why your suggestion has no merit at all.

What is Paul teaching here? That in the last days, the churches will be filled with men who are not only corrupt, but deceivers who also resist the truth. They have "a form of godliness" (they claim to be Christian apostles, prophets, and teachers) and thus they are able to deceive women who are shallow, lustful and sinful. They captivate these women with lies, because the women are always on a quest for "knowledge", but are never able to come to a knowledge of the truth.

The word translated as silly is the Greek gunaikarion, which literally means "little women" but metaphorically means poor, weak women, hence "silly" women. When you see how many "silly" women followed New Ager Oprah (as an example) and whatever she said was accepted as Gospel truth, you can understand better what Paul is speaking about.

Except, this is a much more serious issue, since these men are claiming to be Christian teachers. One has to simply look around, and see how true this is today, with men like Benny Hinn and others, leading people astray while developing a whole host of devotees (primarily women).

 

[Stan1953]

Scripture often refers to the 'church' as the 'bride'. A 'bride' is a woman.

How often and where exactly? None that I can see.

 

[eddif]

I used to read verse 6 and 7 where it says "ever learning, and never seeing the truth." Things like atheism would pop in mind. People are constantly learnig useless knowledge, and never seeing Christ. But fter reading again I get a different vibe from it.

6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was.
​

After another reading I get, in short, "in the last days terrible times will come. People will love themselves and hold coldness towards god and others lawlessly. Such as these are the kinds which creep into homes, and lead women astray. These women are easily swayed by new doctrines and teachings. These teachers are false Christians, but will be exposed eventually".

Now am I reading right? Are the "men" or "people" in the second verse all mankind or only people in the church? Is it the "silly women" who are ever learning, or the people "of this sort"?

Acts 15:5
But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

Colossians 2:16
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Hebrews 6:4
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

IMHO, this is an example of study that can be directed to learn much and miss the reality / body / truth. The reality is Jesus Christ. The ever learning is about (for instance) blood moons as tied to sabbath / holy days / food / etc.

eddif

 

[JLB]

Acts 15:5
But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

Absolutely.

Your scripture reference can be backed up, as well.

These were believing Pharisee's that were teaching false doctrine.

A false doctrine that can lead believers away from Christ.

Those that teach this particular false doctrine, had been cursed by Paull himself, for that very reason.

See Galatians 1:6-9

Jesus said these words to believers.

31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, ‘You will be made free’?”

34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever.36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

37 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with[l] your father.”

39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”

Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this.41 You do the deeds of your father.”

Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. John 8:31-44


Jesus said to these Believer's....

JLB

 

[JLB]

How often and where exactly? None that I can see.

31 “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
Ephesians 5:31-32

The Church, in this mystery is represented as the wife of Christ.

This began with the Abrahamic Covenant.

Abraham being the founding member of the Ecclesia.

JLB

 

[Stan1953]

31 “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
Ephesians 5:31-32
The Church, in this mystery is represented as the wife of Christ.
This began with the Abrahamic Covenant.
Abraham being the founding member of the Ecclesia.
JLB

OK well I was asking the actual poster, but in any event, Eph 5:31-32 is about Jesus and the church being ONE, not the church being a bride.
Ellicott states in his commentary of this passage that;

The words apply to the type, as well as to the Antitype. (1) The indissoluble and paramount sacredness of marriage, as all history shows, is “a mystery”—that is (see Ephesians 1:9), a secret of God’s law, fully revealed in Christ alone. For in heathen, and, to some extent, even in Jewish thought, marriage was a contract far less sacred than the indissoluble tie of blood; and wherever Christian principle is renounced or obscured, that ancient idea recurs in modern times. It may be noted that from the translation here of the word “mystery,” by sacramentum in the Latin versions, the application of the word “sacrament” to marriage arose. (2) But the following words, “But I” (the word “I” being emphatic) “speak concerning Christ and the Church,” show—what indeed the whole passage has already shown—that St. Paul’s chief thought has passed from the type to the Antitype. He has constantly dwelt on points which suit only Christ’s relation to the Church, and to that relation he has, by an irresistible gravitation of thought, been brought back again and again. (3) Yet the two cannot be separate. The type brings out some features of the Antitype which no other comparison makes clear; and history shows that the sacredness of the type in the Church has depended on this great passage—bearing, as it does, emphatic witness against the ascetic tendency to look on marriage as simply a concession to weakness, and as leading to a life necessarily lower than the celibate life.​

 

[JLB]

OK well I was asking the actual poster, but in any event, Eph 5:31-32 is about Jesus and the church being ONE, not the church being a bride.

Brother!!!

Please what the words of this scripture actually says.

For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”[e] 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.
Ephesians 5:31-33

The mystery is from Genesis and reveals the intent for the Son to have an eternal companion.

The two shall become one is the language of husband and wife.

The Lord has revealed this us who are in Covenant with Him.

The Lord was the Husband to Israel which began with Abraham who was the founding member of the Ecclesia.

For your Maker is your husband, The Lord of hosts is His name; And your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel; He is called the God of the whole earth.
Isaiah 54:5

We are married to Him Who was raised from the dead.

Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. Romans 7:4


JLB

 

[Stan1953]

Brother!!!
Please what the words of this scripture actually says.
For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”[e] 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.
Ephesians 5:31-33
The mystery of

You'll have to be a tad clearer JLB. I've read it for years, so I have no problem understanding it, and I explained it for you. If you don't agree then show why. This does NOT say the church is Christ's bride, despite your assertion it does.

Please read Rev 21:2 & 9.

 

[childeye]

Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
The knowledge of God is the knowing of His Person. You can gather immense knowledge about scripture, philosophy, psychology, etc... which is impressive to those both female and male that fall into the simile of silly women. But knowing Who God is on a personal level is the only knowledge that matters. Only that knowledge about Who God is inspires faith. disapproved concerning the faith;

Lust is imaginary, as in the metaphor the grass is greener over there. Hence the silly women think, this person knows more, so I will follow him/her.
and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts.

Those who know that the Truth concerning Christ is pertaining to Who God is as a Person, also know, that it therefore doesn't matter how much knowledge one has about scripture, philosophy, science, etc...

In agreement with Reba's point, there is the body of Christ which is led by the Spirit of Christ, which are those who know Christ and the Person of God, not to be lumped in with those who appear godly because they know scripture well, but don't know God as the Person He is. Wherefore John Darling correctly said that there are wheat and tares planted together but they are not all of the body. The field where they are planted are not just religious institutions, but the whole world. Matthew 13:38 38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

 

[Deborah13]

You'll have to be a tad clearer JLB. I've read it for years, so I have no problem understanding it, and I explained it for you. If you don't agree then show why. This does NOT say the church is Christ's bride, despite your assertion it does.

Please read Rev 21:2 & 9.

It says the New Jerusalem is the bride and this is what the bride looks like. It is the Messiah (the cornerstone, the lamp), the 12 tribes, the 12 apostles, and His people from all the nations. Now they are without spot or wrinkle and shine like jewels reflecting the glory of the Lord.
I hear gates of pearls but what I see is the 12 tribes. I'm not sure that I can word this correctly.....The Messiah came from one of these tribes, Judah, so in a sense we have all entered through them, as gates, into His Kingdom, and tabernacle.

ie
Rev 5:4 And I was weeping much, because no one was found worthy to open and to read the scroll, nor to behold it,
Rev 5:5 and one of the elders saith to me, `Weep not; lo, overcome did the Lion, who is of the tribe of Judah, the root of David, to open the scroll, and to loose the seven seals of it;
Rev 5:6 and I saw, and lo, in the midst of the throne, and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, a Lamb hath stood as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the Seven Spirits of God, which are sent to all the earth,
John heard them say the Lion and he saw a slain Lamb. They seem to be two very different things but we know they are not. This is the Messiah both Lion and Lamb.

Does God tabernacle in a temple or a city? I say no, He tabernacles in His people.
Rev 21:3 and I heard a great voice out of the heaven, saying, `Lo, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will tabernacle with them, and they shall be His peoples, and God Himself shall be with them--their God,

 

[Stan1953]

Does God tabernacle in a temple or a city? I say no, He tabernacles in His people.
Rev 21:3 and I heard a great voice out of the heaven, saying, `Lo, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will tabernacle with them, and they shall be His peoples, and God Himself shall be with them--their God,

Yes, and as a matter of fact when you read Rev 21:22, it's says so.

 

[eddif]

It says the New Jerusalem is the bride and this is what the bride looks like. It is the Messiah (the cornerstone, the lamp), the 12 tribes, the 12 apostles, and His people from all the nations. Now they are without spot or wrinkle and shine like jewels reflecting the glory of the Lord.
I hear gates of pearls but what I see is the 12 tribes. I'm not sure that I can word this correctly.....The Messiah came from one of these tribes, Judah, so in a sense we have all entered through them, as gates, into His Kingdom, and tabernacle.

ie
Rev 5:4 And I was weeping much, because no one was found worthy to open and to read the scroll, nor to behold it,
Rev 5:5 and one of the elders saith to me, `Weep not; lo, overcome did the Lion, who is of the tribe of Judah, the root of David, to open the scroll, and to loose the seven seals of it;
Rev 5:6 and I saw, and lo, in the midst of the throne, and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, a Lamb hath stood as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the Seven Spirits of God, which are sent to all the earth,
John heard them say the Lion and he saw a slain Lamb. They seem to be two very different things but we know they are not. This is the Messiah both Lion and Lamb.

Does God tabernacle in a temple or a city? I say no, He tabernacles in His people.
Rev 21:3 and I heard a great voice out of the heaven, saying, `Lo, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will tabernacle with them, and they shall be His peoples, and God Himself shall be with them--their God,

The foundations are the gifts within the apostles. Precious belief, love, faith, revelation, etc. (help me out).

When you read Genesis 49 you read just about every character flaw in existence. If the gates are anything like the 12 tribes, whosoever will may come. If those rebels are in heaven then: confess your sins , believe in Jesus for the remission of sins, receive Holy Spirit for power to witness ; and spread the gospel. Cause those who will listen to receive salvation in Christ.

You done good.

eddif

 

[eddif]

When taken as a complete or unbroken sentence (with comma in mind), this is how I would read it:

For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

So now I ask it: What precisely might he have intended by the words, "captive" "silly" and "woman" being included altogether as one descriptive term of a certain kind of female person?
Who was or is actually "captive"? and likewise "silly"?
Obviously, they "which creep into houses" sound abominable. To be a "captive" means one is held in bondage of some sort.
This has turned out to be a very interesting passage for me to explore. Prayer seems wise to me on this right now.
​

The bridegroom is Jesus Christ. The bride is male and female, Jew and Gentile, bond and free. The reality is Christ and the Church. The symbols / shadows are man and woman. You can try to get information from a shadow all day long, and everything will remain a mystery. There are hidden mysteries that Holy Spirit can reveal; if we look at Jesus (the body that cast the shadow).

Men can fall just like women. Your sons and daughters shall .......

eddif

 

[Deborah13]

The foundations are the gifts within the apostles. Precious belief, love, faith, revelation, etc. (help me out).

When you read Genesis 49 you read just about every character flaw in existence. If the gates are anything like the 12 tribes, whosoever will may come. If those rebels are in heaven then: confess your sins , believe in Jesus for the remission of sins, receive Holy Spirit for power to witness ; and spread the gospel. Cause those who will listen to receive salvation in Christ.

You done good.

eddif

How can I help you out? You have listed the four things that are the basis for our blessings.

 

[JLB]

You'll have to be a tad clearer JLB. I've read it for years, so I have no problem understanding it, and I explained it for you. If you don't agree then show why. This does NOT say the church is Christ's bride, despite your assertion it does.

Please read Rev 21:2 & 9.

You must have my post mixed up with someone else's, as the word "bride" isn't in my post.

Did the Lord say this to His Covenant people -

Your maker is your Husband?

JLB