Have we "gentile-ized" Christianity?

[Adullam]

I basically agree with what you've posted. Many times I try to explain to unbelievers (on another site) how following Christ is not a religion, being Christian, but is a way of living, it's 'faithing' and relying upon God day to day by trying to follow His Word. It's not a method of following nor of being good before God through man-made traditions and such.

Not that there's a lot wrong with religious traditions of worship. ;) It is the way we fellowship, and have that community. It is different in larger cities etc, unless the church members work hard at keeping it a close community of believers. I, for one, miss living in MO for this very reason: we were neighbors and friends, fellowshipping, praying, being "there" for each other like a good family would be... where I'm at now, I have no church to attend and it's very, very difficult to not enjoy fellowship with other believers.

Acts 2 records a fellowship in the Spirit that goes far beyond even what the Jews are living. I see that ONLY when we are living at THAT level will we be able to make the Jews jealous.

We are called to be gathered into His Body.....that means very close proximity AND being in the Spirit.

 

[jasoncran]

One aspect of Gentilizing the faith that is often overlooked is the way Christianity has been turned into a religion...rather than a way of life.

The Jews live in compact communities...living in the same area within walking distance of the synagogue.

Christians tend to only want to live like the world...and at certain times get together. They are spread out all over the city or beyond. There is no community...just religious services.

which jews? most jews dont follow the torah in that they are really wordly. i have talked to my kin and they love beer and partying. some do very orthodox things but most are liberal gay rights and abortion supporting

my dad doesnt believe in gay rights nor was he raised too. However today the jews are way to soft on that.

 

[Drummer4Christ]

As I posted, that vision spoke to both imo. (There is other evidence of eating what would be considered unclean, yet blessed by God is clean--other verses.)
[ Mark 7:18 (NIV) "Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? Mark 7:19 (NIV) For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.") Mark 7:18 (KJV) And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him; Mark 7:19 (KJV) Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?]

As for the aids comment, well, no I don't agree about it being put upon sinful people...if that's what you meant. There's good evidence that Jonas Salk may have caused it, as he himself felt (which is why he joined the research on aids) when he tested and used that specie of monkey (where they believe the origin of aids lies) for the polio vaccine. Plus I know too many good Christians who are HIV + because of tainted blood transfusions (of old.) It may very well have travelled because of the overall sinfulness of the world today, though.

I addressed Mark 7:14-23 in post #55

However, if Jesus "declared" all foods clean, why did Peter object to eating unclean food in his vision?


What I meant about AIDS was that, assuming a person contracted the virus through sex outside of marriage (sexually immoral behavior) is what defiles them. I didn't mean that simply because they have AIDS, they are defiled. As you mentioned, not everyone that has AIDS contracted it through sexually immoral behavior.

 

[Gazelle]

I addressed Mark 7:14-23 in post #55

However, if Jesus "declared" all foods clean, why did Peter object to eating unclean food in his vision?


What I meant about AIDS was that, assuming a person contracted the virus through sex outside of marriage (sexually immoral behavior) is what defiles them. I didn't mean that simply because they have AIDS, they are defiled. As you mentioned, not everyone that has AIDS contracted it through sexually immoral behavior.

Ok. Colossians 2:13–14

13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the 9handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Christ nailed the previous requirements (otherwise read as ordinances, The Law) to the cross. Those requirements are no longer, they have been 'taken out of the way'.

I'm confused about the aids comment now... you mean you divide up who is defiled and who isn't because of how they obtained the aids? Yet both (all) are suffering the same, both physically and emotionally... both by the treatment of the stigma? So those that obtained it "properly", them we can embrace but not the others? See? I am confused. Is this part of Judaism or are you saying this is part of Christianity's effort to gentilize Judaism?

 

[Gazelle]

oh please,

the church whether done good you claim, and yet it sins you ingore it? the effects have been passed on.you may not nor i have partaken the hatred but the distance and or perversion of such is still passed on. for the record i wasnt never taught to hate christians all that i know is from the parent of mine who is a jew and also the jws and reasearch.

......

I keep wondering where this accusation comes from... that "we" have gentilized Christianity. Are there no Messianic Jews in your area? Whatever the term to be embraced, Messianic, Completed, whole ... they abound here where I live (many Jewish communities in South Florida.)

I was never taught to hate anyone, myself. If you think that because of a population of people who did and do hate the Jewish people, that we all hate the Jewish people, that would be false reasoning again. In fact, it reads of a possible hatred for those you think hate the Jews. Have you read of the Christians who gave their lives for the Jewish people? We always read about the 6 million Jews who were murdered in the holocaust...but why not also read about the 5 million Christians who also died in trying to protect the Jews? I think that's a good example ---a large sampling--and hardly the only one to say the Christians do love the Jewish people, instead of the other way around, imo. ;)

 

[Drummer4Christ]

Ok. Colossians 2:13–14

13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the 9handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Christ nailed the previous requirements (otherwise read as ordinances, The Law) to the cross. Those requirements are no longer, they have been 'taken out of the way'.

I understand all that but, that doesn't answer my question about why would Peter object to eating unclean meat in his vision, if not eating unclean meat was no longer a requirement?

I'm confused about the aids comment now... you mean you divide up who is defiled and who isn't because of how they obtained the aids? Yet both (all) are suffering the same, both physically and emotionally... both by the treatment of the stigma? So those that obtained it "properly", them we can embrace but not the others? See? I am confused. Is this part of Judaism or are you saying this is part of Christianity's effort to gentilize Judaism?

No, I am saying that simply having AIDS is not what defiles someone. Considering the fact that the vast majority of people who contract STD's do so as a result of having sex outside of marriage, it is "from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within and defile a man."

 

[jasoncran]

I keep wondering where this accusation comes from... that "we" have gentilized Christianity. Are there no Messianic Jews in your area? Whatever the term to be embraced, Messianic, Completed, whole ... they abound here where I live (many Jewish communities in South Florida.)

I was never taught to hate anyone, myself. If you think that because of a population of people who did and do hate the Jewish people, that we all hate the Jewish people, that would be false reasoning again. In fact, it reads of a possible hatred for those you think hate the Jews. Have you read of the Christians who gave their lives for the Jewish people? We always read about the 6 million Jews who were murdered in the holocaust...but why not also read about the 5 million Christians who also died in trying to protect the Jews? I think that's a good example ---a large sampling--and hardly the only one to say the Christians do love the Jewish people, instead of the other way around, imo. ;)

messianic jews dont call them selves Christians and are insulted by that.I know why they dont like that. messainic do all the feasts and also dont do christmas in general.
fyi i am going to teach the kids on judiasm and what isreal is and what the feasts were and only jeff is to be thanked for the latter.

a classic example of why i say what i say is this very thread. drummer is asking why we dont do the law and you automatically assume that he wants to put on under the law when he wants to know what the jews did and why they did it. he also wants to know why the "church" doesnt do that and also why we dont see things that way in the ot(tanakh).

you do realise the jews of today and then were killed(past tense) and had to save the oral traditions and then like all enemies this hate was passed on and both sides did this.

likewise, if i want to learn from the jews i cant just walk in and ask them. what meaneth the prophets and not be really wanting to convert. They wont tell me.

to this day my kin whom are jews(orthodox) have that mentality. i see them say it at times with their posts on fb on judaism.

we have done this to them. when i speak of "gentilisation" its how we do exegesis mainly and how you read the ot. i know now why jews hate the word old testament as its not old to them.i wish christians stop looking at the ot that way.

if one is too be a pre tribber.I find that ironic with the gentiles who espouse that doctrine and say that when in fact they believe that daniel isnt fullifilled or isiah etc.

how is half the bible dead? its all alive.

we have their faith, we got it from them. when you can really understand this!

OUR GOD IS A JEWISH ONE AND OUR FAITH IS JEWISH ONE

AND dont be offended then you understand.

i do have a messianic friend who is jewish and loves the lord and attends both the messianic temple and the christian churches.

 

[stovebolts]

@ Jason & Stove (may I call you Jeff?)


Your posts have greatly aided in my discernment, I will not challenge their veracity.

However, concerning Mark 7:14-23 (thus purifying all foods):

Mark 7:5 has the Pharisees objecting to the Disciples not "walking in the traditions of the elders" by "eating bread with unclean hands."

So, the context isn't about "unclean" foods.

I would argue (grab an interlinear Bible) that a more accurate translation of verse 19 is this:

18 So He said to them, ;Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him, 19 because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?

Notice how "thus purifying all foods" is a continuation of Jesus' words, not commentary by Mark.

Jesus, in this instance, specifies the sinful behavior that emanates from within a man is what defiles him. Not a mere act of defilement i.e. eating bread with unclean hands (or eating pork for that matter)

I would agree with that. Often we use a piece of text to support our argument and miss the main point of the passage.

But more to the scripture, we can see how traditions can morph into laws and restrict the original intent.

This begs the question. Why did God not allow the eating of pork? Now there's a tough question. {and I can almost hear them screaming, "Because God said not to!!"}

 

[Drummer4Christ]

we can see how traditions can morph into laws and restrict the original intent.

Exactly! I would argue that every time the Pharisees accused Jesus & the disciples of "breaking the Law", they were actually accusing Jesus of breaking traditions that had morphed into law. That's why Jesus would turn it around on the Pharisees, exposing them of their hypocrisy.

This begs the question. Why did God not allow the eating of pork? Now there's a tough question. {and I can almost hear them screaming, "Because God said not to!!"}

I'll have to get back to you on that one

 

[Gazelle]

Side note: God didn't allow the eating of pork, nor of the shell fish because they are considered scavengers of the earth/sea. They are the garbage dumps eating anything. Plus, with the pork, the pig has no sweat glands so all the toxins enter into the meat and fat of the animal.

 

[Gazelle]

I understand all that but, that doesn't answer my question about why would Peter object to eating unclean meat in his vision, if not eating unclean meat was no longer a requirement?



No, I am saying that simply having AIDS is not what defiles someone. Considering the fact that the vast majority of people who contract STD's do so as a result of having sex outside of marriage, it is "from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within and defile a man."

I think you make very good points about not being under the law, for surely under the law everyone with aids would be defiled. And for children or others who were raped and now have an STD, they too would be defiled. As for having relations outside of marriage, I daresay there is a huge component of stds going about from married people to others...and the last I read the highest incidents of AIDS or HIV was in the senior citizens. I'm glad we have a God of mercy and gives us grace more abundantly for living. But it wasn't the Gentiles who changed it, it was Jesus the Christ himself.

 

[jasoncran]

I would agree with that. Often we use a piece of text to support our argument and miss the main point of the passage.

But more to the scripture, we can see how traditions can morph into laws and restrict the original intent.

This begs the question. Why did God not allow the eating of pork? Now there's a tough question. {and I can almost hear them screaming, "Because God said not to!!"}

Isreal was to be a nation unto him. all the other nations did eat those things he wanted them to be pelculiar nation.

why oh why dont some get that. seldom does god say because i said so to his creation. its for a reason.

 

[Drummer4Christ]

I think you make very good points about not being under the law, for surely under the law everyone with aids would be defiled. And for children or others who were raped and now have an STD, they too would be defiled. As for having relations outside of marriage, I daresay there is a huge component of stds going about from married people to others...and the last I read the highest incidents of AIDS or HIV was in the senior citizens. I'm glad we have a God of mercy and gives us grace more abundantly for living. But it wasn't the Gentiles who changed it, it was Jesus the Christ himself.

Please answer the question:

Why did Peter object to eating unclean food in his vision if Jesus declared all food clean?

 

[reba]

Old habits are hard to break.

 

[jasoncran]

drummer4christ. you are a gentile, correct. were you born of the seed of abraham of the flesh?

ok without getting into the replacement theology.

what was the function that ancient isreal to be and do? and why then did the LORD go to the gentiles?when you have that figured out then you know the answer.

 

[Drummer4Christ]

What about celebrating Holidays?

Why doesn't the present church observe Hanukkah,Rosh Hashanah,Passover ect?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Why doesn't the present church observe Hanukkah,Rosh Hashanah,Passover ect?

Because the early church was taught, erroneously, that it is categorically anathema to do so (can you see the irony of that...making a law that says you are no longer permitted to relate to God through the ceremonial law?).

But even now that we know that is not true, there is no more requirement of binding law to do so that we have to go back to those things...those requirements being part of the first covenant that was made obsolete and no longer required by the appearing of the New Covenant, Jesus Christ, God has established with his people.

 

[jasoncran]

What about celebrating Holidays?

Why doesn't the present church observe Hanukkah,Rosh Hashanah,Passover ect?

because those point to the cross. i am doing channukah but that that talmudic day is really a reminder of when the maccabees to back the temple and do cleanse that temple for worship.

we are now the temple. so whats the point. i merely want to look into them and see what they mean and how they point to the lord.