Have we gone too far with the judging?

[Aardverk]

My previous response to this thread was a simple 'Yes' because I thought that answer was entirely self evident.

I have sat back and watched people judging each others, even in this thread, and feel moved to say a little more. Judging others, as has been said above is a dreadful mistake. It drives people away from the Christian community and causes anger and division rather than harmony and fellowship.

14:1 Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. Romans NIV
​

Even something as clear as that is misinterpreted and abused by some. Those with 'weak' faith are labelled 'sinners' or 'evil' by some, even on this forum, and anyone with even a vaguely fundamentalist view seems incapable of recognizing that there are many, many matters which are disputable.

Emergent Scripture ............... normal hermeneutics ..........allegorical and devotional hermeneutics ......... liberal hermeneutics ............... neo-orthodox hermeneutics ......... Postmodern hermeneutics ................. Rhetorical hermeneutics............... Redemptive Hermeneutics.................

An interesting article P31 - thank you. (Which P31? - the plane, ship, page, etc?)

A neo-fundamentalist Christian will decide on their preferred hermeneutical method and reject all others, thereby cutting themselves off from the possibility that their interpretation is wrong. They 'judge' those who take a different hermeneutical approach and especially a more modern approach, one which is not mired in the history of conventional, 'conservative' Christianity.

Men open this book, their favourite creed in mind;
Each seeks his own, and each his own doth find. S.Werenfels (Theologian)​

That truism should certainly tell us that any rigid viewpoint is naive at best. We do not have and cannot have a standard, unequivocal interpretation of The Bible. I hold therefore that the most sensible approach is not rigid adherence to 'conservative' interpretations but a simple attempt to lead a 'good' life. I suppose 'good' is open to interpretation but by trying to follow the example of Jesus, we can make a reasonable start.

Anyone who believes that THEIR way is the ONLY way to God and then judges others by that standard is a fool (who will be judged by that standard). We see far too much of that, both in the real world and on this forum. Interpret The Bible how YOU want to but don't try to tell others that their interpretation is wrong - YOU don't know. Unfortunately, there is no 'right' way for us all to follow but fortunately, we don't have to.

We have abundant reason to rejoice, that, in this land, the light of truth and reason has triumphed over the power of bigotry and superstition, and that every person may here worship God according to the dictates of his own heart.-George Washington​

 

[P31Woman]

My previous response to this thread was a simple 'Yes' because I thought that answer was entirely self evident.

I have sat back and watched people judging each others, even in this thread, and feel moved to say a little more. Judging others, as has been said above is a dreadful mistake. It drives people away from the Christian community and causes anger and division rather than harmony and fellowship.

14:1 Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. Romans NIV
​

Even something as clear as that is misinterpreted and abused by some. Those with 'weak' faith are labelled 'sinners' or 'evil' by some, even on this forum, and anyone with even a vaguely fundamentalist view seems incapable of recognizing that there are many, many matters which are disputable.



An interesting article P31 - thank you. (Which P31? - the plane, ship, page, etc?)

A neo-fundamentalist Christian will decide on their preferred hermeneutical method and reject all others, thereby cutting themselves off from the possibility that their interpretation is wrong. They 'judge' those who take a different hermeneutical approach and especially a more modern approach, one which is not mired in the history of conventional, 'conservative' Christianity.

Men open this book, their favourite creed in mind;
Each seeks his own, and each his own doth find. S.Werenfels (Theologian)
​

That truism should certainly tell us that any rigid viewpoint is naive at best. We do not have and cannot have a standard, unequivocal interpretation of The Bible. I hold therefore that the most sensible approach is not rigid adherence to 'conservative' interpretations but a simple attempt to lead a 'good' life. I suppose 'good' is open to interpretation but by trying to follow the example of Jesus, we can make a reasonable start.

Anyone who believes that THEIR way is the ONLY way to God and then judges others by that standard is a fool (who will be judged by that standard). We see far too much of that, both in the real world and on this forum. Interpret The Bible how YOU want to but don't try to tell others that their interpretation is wrong - YOU don't know. Unfortunately, there is no 'right' way for us all to follow but fortunately, we don't have to.

We have abundant reason to rejoice, that, in this land, the light of truth and reason has triumphed over the power of bigotry and superstition, and that every person may here worship God according to the dictates of his own heart.-George Washington
​

Are u making a judgement call?


Speaking out against Sin is not a disputable matter. Scripture is clear. The OP is talking about the church saying homosexuality is a sin.




Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. John 4:16 NIV

 

[P31Woman]

Hi, this is my first post, I'm not to sure how this works, but in regards to the topic of judging, doesn't the bible teach that the church is supposed to make judgements within the church but not outside the church, according to 1 Corinthians 5

Great first post! Yes that's what scripture clearly teaches. Those in the EC don't like us doing that. They don't like sin or hell or judgement .

Emergent:
Judgmentalism - Other people knowing right from wrong and saying so.

 

[Aardverk]

Are u making a judgement call?

I am clearly criticizing those who pass judgement and try to tell us there is 'only one way' - or words to that effect. There are multiple ways and no-one knows which, if any are right. I seek to promote tolerance partly because that is what Jesus taught but mainly because that is the way intelligent human beings work best together.

1. Speaking out against Sin is not a disputable matter. 2. Scripture is clear. 3. The OP is talking about the church saying homosexuality is a sin.

I disagree on all three points.

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. John 4:16 NIV

But what does that mean? Which hermeneutic are you going to use and which will you reject? Yes, I know the traditional elitist answer but that is so patently unreasonable, unfair, harsh, etc that I just can't accept that is what was meant. Why should a good Buddhist, Shintoist, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Pagan etc not go to heaven - specially those who never even heard of Jesus? What about babies? What about the feeble minded? What about all sorts of others with good excuses?

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

I am clearly criticizing those who pass judgement and try to tell us there is 'only one way' - or words to that effect. There are multiple ways and no-one knows which, if any are right.

'Verk, I know you feel that way, but the Bible clearly tells us there is, indeed, only one way.

I seek to promote tolerance partly because that is what Jesus taught but mainly because that is the way intelligent human beings work best together.

Jesus did not teach tolerance. Jesus taught two things: Love, and Justice. Love He expressed to everyone. That does not mean He "tolerated" their lostness. It means He loved them enough to want them to come to Him. He wept for Jerusalem on the very day of His triumphal entry, because He knew on what basis they welcomed Him. Not as Savior, but as their concept of Messiah, which was a military, conquering hero who would reestablish Israel as the center of the world. That, of course, was not His intention.

I disagree on all three points.

And please note, as I say this with love, your disagreement does not negate the truth of what P31 said.

But what does that mean? Which hermeneutic are you going to use and which will you reject? Yes, I know the traditional elitist answer but that is so patently unreasonable, unfair, harsh, etc that I just can't accept that is what was meant.

Please explain how that is the case? You mention many people and types (which I deal with separately here) but you do not defend how it is unfair, harsh, unreasonable. Can you clarify, please?

Why should a good Buddhist, Shintoist, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Pagan etc not go to heaven - specially those who never even heard of Jesus?

First of all, Romans 2:14-16 teaches that those who have not had the opportunity to hear the gospel will be dealt with by the conviction in their hearts. Secondly, it is clear that the failure to accept Christ as having died for our sins -- paying a price we are unable to pay -- is the only want to heaven. There will be judgment. God is loving, but He is just as well, and as He cannot abide sin, He cannot allow sin into His presence. Those who have not followed Christ bear their sin with them, and therefore will also bear the justice for that sin.

What about babies?

There is an age of innocence from which they emerge to make a decision on their own. Until then, not having a knowledge of right and wrong -- just as Adam and Eve did not prior to partaking of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil -- they are protected. It is when they realize they have a choice of obedience or disobedience that they then must confront the gospel and decide what they will do with it.

What about the feeble minded?

It is quite likely the mentally disadvantaged never really reach a level at which they are able to determine right and wrong, and would continue to be covered by their innocence.

What about all sorts of others with good excuses?

There are no good excuses otherwise.

 

[Aardverk]

To attempt to correct a brother from an error is not passing judgement, it's trying to help.

If done the way Reba described above - I agree. Unfortunately it is rarely done that way, especially here. It is more often done in a clearly critical manner by people maintaining that "there is only one way and if you disagree you are wrong"

Saying that there are many truths, and many different meanings to a particular passage in scripture is a lie.

Yep, that's the sort of thing I mean :gah

There may certainly be different meanings to a single passage operating at different levels of intelligence but that misses the point that the same passage may be interpreted in myriad different ways by different people. We do not know, sometimes what is meant but there's no shortage of 'experts' trying to insist that it doesn't mean what it appears to say - it means blah, blah, blah.

You must be aware that there are many different interpretations Edward and if there are many different interpretations it follows that the meaning of scripture is not clear. People disregard even passages which appear to me to be crystal clear.

Worse, to my mind, some people disregard what Jesus said and follow what someone else said instead! Paul for example.

Scripture say what it says and means what it means, that's it.

No Edward. You are bound to interpret the words. There are dozens of clear conflicts - so which ones will you follow and which ones will you reject? If it were not for those conflicts we would all be in one church, one denomination and believe the same things. Instead of that, the Christian church is far more fragmented now than it was before Constantine ordered The Bible to be written.

There are also plenty of devout, committed Christians who simply do not accept that The Bible is the inspired word of God. In fact, I have never heard anyone, from any of the hundreds of denominations try to give a coherent reason why they believe that it is yet they are often willing to taunt those with doubts. Not very 'Christian' of them - in my opinion.

 

[P31Woman]

I am clearly criticizing those who pass judgement and try to tell us there is 'only one way' - or words to that effect. There are multiple ways and no-one knows which, if any are right. I seek to promote tolerance partly because that is what Jesus taught but mainly because that is the way intelligent human beings work best together.

I disagree on all three points.

But what does that mean? Which hermeneutic are you going to use and which will you reject? Yes, I know the traditional elitist answer but that is so patently unreasonable, unfair, harsh, etc that I just can't accept that is what was meant. Why should a good Buddhist, Shintoist, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Pagan etc not go to heaven - specially those who never even heard of Jesus? What about babies? What about the feeble minded? What about all sorts of others with good excuses?

It is you who claims ignorance not me. I know the right way to God. You cannot tell me from your point of admitted ignorance that I am wrong.

Because I know that right way I am under an obligation to help others know. I am also obligated to tell others when they are on the wrong path or warn them of evil people/doctrine that is going to lead them away from God.

 

[Aardverk]

.... the Bible clearly tells us there is, indeed, only one way.

Think your way through the various hermeneutics listed above and you will see that your statement is merely AN interpretation.

Jesus did not teach tolerance.

Jesus taught by example as well as words and he demonstrated tolerance most of his life. I don't see how you can 'love your enemy' but not tolerate them. Tolerance leads to understanding and understanding leads to peace. Intolerance leads to war - usually.

..... You mention many people and types (which I deal with separately here) but you do not defend how it is unfair, harsh, unreasonable. Can you clarify, please?

The classic elitist interpretation is that you will only be saved if you believe exactly this, that or the other (depending upon you rdenomination, sect etc). There are other hermeneutical interpretation 'disconnected. You seem to be saying with great confidence that they are all wrong apart, of course, from your interpretation. I have no problem with you believing that but I do have a problem with you over-confidently telling people that they are not saved because they believe something different from you.

The unfairness and harshness comes in when someone leads a blameless, worthy life yet believes something different from you. Given that they have adopted their beliefs for good sensible reasons, how can it be fair to be punished for not accepting something that is purely a matter of faith. Something which you have to be told about or read about and then blindly accept? That level of 'unfair' test is simply unreasonable to a species which have a natural sense of reasonableness and fairness.

First of all, Romans 2:14-16 teaches that those who have not had the opportunity to hear the gospel will be dealt with by the conviction in their hearts.

No, that is certainly not what it says. That is your interpretation.

Secondly, it is clear that the failure to accept Christ as having died for our sins -- paying a price we are unable to pay -- is the only want to heaven.

It may be 'clear' to you by your interpretation but, as ever, there are differing interpretations. Think of those different methods again.

There is an age of innocence from which.....

Pure guesswork (interpretation).

It is quite likely the mentally disadvantaged never really reach a level at which they are ......

Guesswork (interpretation).

There are no good excuses otherwise.

Guesswork (interpretation).

I would venture to suggest that 95% of The Bible is interpreted differently by different people, denominations and sects. There is no one way.

 

[Aardverk]

It is you who claims ignorance not me. I know the right way to God. You cannot tell me from your point of admitted ignorance that I am wrong.

Because I know that right way I am under an obligation to help others know. I am also obligated to tell others when they are on the wrong path or warn them of evil people/doctrine that is going to lead them away from God.

I certainly claim ignorance. I know nothing. I can only guess, just like the rest of humanity.

Lucky you 'knowing' the right way to God. I have certainly not tried to tell you that your way is wrong - how on earth would I know. All I am trying to get over is that judging other is bad, divisive, harmful and totally pointless.

IF you can help people that is great. IF you think you are helping them by judging them - think again.

There is no single way.

 

[P31Woman]

I certainly claim ignorance. I know nothing. I can only guess, just like the rest of humanity.

Lucky you 'knowing' the right way to God. I have certainly not tried to tell you that your way is wrong - how on earth would I know. All I am trying to get over is that judging other is bad, divisive, harmful and totally pointless.

IF you can help people that is great. IF you think you are helping them by judging them - think again.

There is no single way.

You cannot make that absolute claim. Remember you claim ignorance.

You are also showing a lack of tolerance.

 

[Aardverk]

You cannot make that absolute claim. Remember you claim ignorance.

I claim 'ignorance' not 'stupidity'. I am relying upon one of the most important tenets of this forum, the American nation and the ecumenical council when I say that there is no single way. On top of that there are 200 major Christian denominations plus thousands of Christian sects, all of which believe that they 'know' the way. All of that is before we get to individuals' varying beliefs within all of these organisations. If you want to believe that YOU have got it right and ALL of those others have got it wrong - that is entirely up to you. Statistically, you are probably wrong.

You are also showing a lack of tolerance.

Really? Because I am open minded rather than closed minded? An intolerance of bullies and over-confident individuals claiming that THEY know THE way? Do explain

 

[P31Woman]

I claim 'ignorance' not 'stupidity'. I am relying upon one of the most important tenets of this forum, the American nation and the ecumenical council when I say that there is no single way. On top of that there are 200 major Christian denominations plus thousands of Christian sects, all of which believe that they 'know' the way. All of that is before we get to individuals' varying beliefs within all of these organisations. If you want to believe that YOU have got it right and ALL of those others have got it wrong - that is entirely up to you. Statistically, you are probably wrong.

Really? Because I am open minded rather than closed minded? An intolerance of bullies and over-confident individuals claiming that THEY know THE way? Do explain

Your claim is ignorance. I am not going to argue that point with you. I will tolerate your opinion of yourself.

I disagree with you that you are tolerant. I believe your post prove otherwise.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I know the way.
It's through Jesus Christ, my Lord and Savior.

 

[JCitoL]

Been reading a blog by Rachel Held Evans and I found this statement very interesting;

We have become a Church that judges one another by how we judge one another

I think I see what she's getting at. I've often had comments and judgement passed my way because I don't judge a certain way. So have we taken judging too far?

it has been said and written:

Matthew 7:1-12 "Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again..... Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.",

Romans 2:1-6 "thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds:",

Romans 14:10-13 "why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way."

so the comments are unnecessary especially after the purpose of the faith is quite direct to be provided abundant and everlasting life to all humans:

John 3:17 "God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world(i.e. the humankind); but that the world(i.e. the humankind) through him might be saved.",

Luke 9:55 "the Son of man is not come(i.e. does never come) to destroy men's lives, but to(i.e. but He always comes (in order) to) save them.",

Matthew 18:10-14 "Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones(i.e. anyone of the humans); for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones(i.e. that anyone of the humans) should perish.",

Mark 9:23-29 "Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things(i.e. all good things) are possible to him that believeth..... And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting(i.e. but by intercession and earnestness).",

1 Timothy 2:1-10 "I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks(i.e. blessings), be made for all men(i.e. for all humans); For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty(i.e. in all goodness and earnestness). For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men(i.e. all humans/souls) to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth(i.e. and to become good/righteous). For there is one God, and one mediator(also: and one Lord) between God and men, the man(i.e. the ensouled being) Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not; ) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity. I will therefore that men(i.e. that the male believers) pray every where, lifting up holy hands(i.e. entirely showing/manifesting love/goodness), without wrath(i.e. without hostility/aggression) and doubting(i.e. and dramatization/stir/intrigues/strife). In like manner also, that women(i.e. that female believers) adorn themselves in modest apparel(i.e. in humility), with shamefacedness(i.e. with meekness) and sobriety(i.e. and sedation/sanity); not with broided hair(i.e. not with pride), or gold(i.e. or vainglory), or pearls(i.e. or wisdom), or costly array(i.e. or elevation); But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works."

the faith is not for judgment, but for salvation

Blessings

 

[P31Woman]

Hi, this is my first post, I'm not to sure how this works, but in regards to the topic of judging, doesn't the bible teach that the church is supposed to make judgements within the church but not outside the church, according to 1 Corinthians 5

1 Corinthians 5

Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

Immoral Church Members

5 It is widely reported that there is sexual immorality<sup class="crossreference" value='(A)'></sup> among you, and the kind of sexual immorality that is not even tolerated<sup class="footnote" value='[a]'></sup> among the Gentiles<sup class="crossreference" value='(B)'></sup>—a man is living with his father’s wife.<sup class="crossreference" value='(C)'></sup> <sup class="versenum">2 </sup>And you are inflated with pride, instead of filled with grief<sup class="crossreference" value='(D)'></sup> so that he who has committed this act might be removed from your congregation. <sup class="versenum">3 </sup>For though I am absent in body but present in spirit,<sup class="crossreference" value='(E)'></sup> I have already decided about the one who has done this thing as though I were present. <sup class="versenum">4 </sup>When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus with my spirit and with the power of our Lord Jesus, <sup class="versenum">5 </sup>turn that one over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh,<sup class="crossreference" value='(F)'></sup> so that his spirit may be saved in the Day of the Lord.<sup class="crossreference" value='(G)'></sup>
<sup class="versenum">6 </sup>Your boasting is not good. Don’t you know that a little yeast<sup class="crossreference" value='(H)'></sup> permeates the whole batch of dough?<sup class="crossreference" value='(I)'></sup> <sup class="versenum">7 </sup>Clean out the old yeast so that you may be a new batch. You are indeed unleavened, for Christ our Passover<sup class="crossreference" value='(J)'></sup> has been sacrificed.<sup class="footnote" value='[b]'></sup> <sup class="versenum">8 </sup>Therefore, let us observe the feast, not with old yeast or with the yeast of malice and evil<sup class="crossreference" value='(K)'></sup> but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Church Discipline

<sup class="versenum">9 </sup>I wrote to you in a letter not to associate<sup class="crossreference" value='(L)'></sup> with sexually immoral people.<sup class="crossreference" value='(M)'></sup> <sup class="versenum">10 </sup>I did not mean the immoral people of this world or the greedy<sup class="crossreference" value='(N)'></sup> and swindlers<sup class="crossreference" value='(O)'></sup> or idolaters; otherwise you would have to leave the world.<sup class="crossreference" value='(P)'></sup> <sup class="versenum">11 </sup>But nowI am writing<sup class="footnote" value='[c]'></sup> you not to associate with anyone who claims to be a believer<sup class="footnote" value='[d]'></sup><sup class="crossreference" value='(Q)'></sup> who is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or verbally abusive, a drunkard<sup class="crossreference" value='(R)'></sup> or a swindler. Do not even eat with such a person. <sup class="versenum">12 </sup>For what business is it of mine to judge<sup class="crossreference" value='(S)'></sup> outsiders? Don’t you judge those who are inside? <sup class="versenum">13 </sup>But God judges outsiders. Put away the evil person from among yourselves.

__________

The title of the blog the OP quoted is "Sexuality and the Church".....this passage is more fitting than you realize. Good job. The passage above is about love. Love for God and love for others.

 

[Sparkey]

Quoting myself from another thread about 1Tim 4:1

World-views

Survey: Less Than 1 Percent of Young Adults Hold Biblical Worldview among Christians and the overall US population. Take 200 young people between 18 and 23 years of age and only one will have a Biblical World View; that's merely ½ of 1%.

What is a "Biblical World View" we may ask? As defined by the study this consists of:

• Believing that Absolute Moral Truth exists
• The Bible is Accurate in all of the Principles it teaches
• Satan is a real being or force
• A person can not earn their way into Heaven by being good or doing good works
• Jesus Christ lived a sinless life
• and God is the all-knowing, all-powerful, creator of the world who still rules the universe today.

In the young generation that we see today, only 1 of 200 would agree with that view. The study goes on to say that their research shows that only 9% of all Americans (from all generations) have a "biblical world-view". Among quote "born-again Christians" endquote, the study found that they were twice as likely as the average adult to have a "biblical world view." 19% of "born again Christians" believe the bible is true, that Jesus lived a sinless life, that you can't work your way into heaven, that there really is a devil, and that God has given us an understanding of Truth that is not relativism or based on the situation. These are all things that the Bible clearly teaches. Only one in five Christians believe that to be true. The idea of "basic truths" and a "biblical world-view" is being rapidly lost even among born-again Christians. And when we look at the younger generation? One in two hundred.

We are not to be depressed nor despondent (as verse 1Tim 4:6 tells you and me) because there's going to be the "giving of the ear" to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. It's like saying, there's going to be an unleashing of the demonic and these demons are not going to come across as being scary. They're going to come across as being seductive. (see Rev 9:1-3, when the "abyssos" (bottomless pit) was opened)" These demons that are being held there right now are going to be let go in the Tribulation (pardon my mention, I don't wish to derail the thread into eschatology).

This thread is not about World-views but instead it is about the question, "Have we gone too far with the judging?"

Let's keep it simple: I don't want to edit this thread, but am willing if need be. I'd also like to say "thanks" to those who have heeded even before hearing.

 

[vocalyocal]

I think the quest for bringing people to salvation is a great cause, its what every believer is called to do, but the church was really established to teach and train its disciples (members) to go outside the church and lead people to the Lord, nowadays milk fed christians can only invite someone to church, they have no training in how to lead anyone into a realationship with God. This is a very sad day for the church, as only the pastors seem to be trained to lead people to Christ, when the original design was for every believer to multiply 30, 60, and some 100 fold

 

[Grazer]

It's not the differences between society and Christianity that bother me neither was it the point of this thread. It's the differences between Christians and the attitudes to different views that do and is.

There is so much "I'm right and with God whilst you're wrong and against him" that goes on here, there's too much of it. Yes, you take the bible literally whilst I don't believe its all meant to be. I also have questions over certain events. But we are both in Christ, we both have a relationship with him.

The other thing that goes on is this "I'm telling you you're wrong but I'm doing it in love so its ok" No, it really isn't. I'm not saying we shouldn't disagree but the holier-than-thou attitude that permeates a lot of posts is why I left and why I have several people on ignore now. Once I get over this block I'll be doing a blog looking at this.

I'm not innocent in all this, I freely put my hands up to that. I do have major issues with fundamentalism and some (many) fundamentalists but these are personal problems that don't always stay personal.

I think we all could do well in remembering that this is the internet. We don't know each other that well, you can't really know someone properly just from their posts and we've all had different journeys to God and with God. There's been too much character assassination going on. Oh, and be open and assured enough to go "I may be the one wrong here" This isn't a zero sum game.

Sorry to whinge but I think this could be a great place but too many ruin it

 

[Aardverk]

I disagree with you that you are tolerant. I believe your post prove otherwise.

Where on earth did you read me claim that I was tolerant? Quite the contrary, I clearly said that I do not tolerate bullies etc.

The issue is judging, how that manifests itself and the way it impacts on others. It is the negative impact on others that is important. Judging someone to make yourself feel superior, good, holy, worthy, righteous etc is exactly what Jesus was against - think Pharisees. It is inevitable that those among us who believe that they are one of the elite few selected by God to go to heaven feel themselves superior in God's eye to those they believe have not been selected. Plus of course they inevitably feel holy, worthy, righteous etc - think Pharisee.

I am far more impressed by those who go through life humbly trying to lead a good life and believing that actions speak louder than words. They do.

(I'm not humble by the way ;) so please don't think I claimed I was)

 

[Aardverk]

I know the way. It's through Jesus Christ, my Lord and Savior.

Great! But what about those of a different denomination, a different faith or none? Those people who lead good, worthy lives, never harm anyone or break any laws of God or man?

Many Christians judge them and tell them that they are evil sinners who will never enter the kingdom of God. Some will even tell them they are on their way to hell! That judging is the subject of this thread. Where do you believe a good non-Christian will spend eternity? Take Mahatma Gandhi as an example.