Have we gone too far with the judging?

[Aardverk]

The Holy Spirit of God working in our life opening up scripture to us.

Read the thread again. Most of us who profess to be Christians and view the bible as God's inerrant word see NO contradiction. For us it's pretty clear.

You see, this is the problem. Most Christians do not believe that The Bible is the inerrant word of God. You are claiming to be in a majority that you are not in. Some of you do but even they never even try to justify that belief, they simply, and arrogantly(!), regard their own belief as 'inerrant'. It really and truly does fall into the slot of 'that which can be claimed without evidence can be dismissed without evidence'.

Saying it, believing it, preaching it, etc, does not make it a fact. On top of that, how do the 'inerrantists' dismiss the many very clear instructions NOT to judge others? It is evident to all of us that there are conflicting instructions, so who is to be the decision maker about which 'inerrant word' to ignore and which 'inerrant word' to follow? I asked that before and just got a silly answer. See if you can come up with a good answer that does not amount to you being 'a chosen one' and the next man being misled by The Holy Spirit.

 

[P31Woman]

You see, this is the problem. Most Christians do not believe that The Bible is the inerrant word of God. You are claiming to be in a majority that you are not in. Some of you do but even they never even try to justify that belief, they simply, and arrogantly(!), regard their own belief as 'inerrant'. It really and truly does fall into the slot of 'that which can be claimed without evidence can be dismissed without evidence'.

Saying it, believing it, preaching it, etc, does not make it a fact. On top of that, how do the 'inerrantists' dismiss the many very clear instructions NOT to judge others? It is evident to all of us that there are conflicting instructions, so who is to be the decision maker about which 'inerrant word' to ignore and which 'inerrant word' to follow? I asked that before and just got a silly answer. See if you can come up with a good answer that does not amount to you being 'a chosen one' and the next man being misled by The Holy Spirit.

It's not my claim that most people who profess to be a Chrisitan is one.

 

[P31Woman]

We know that the Bible is the Word of God and God cannot contradict Himself. Why does it appear that there are contradictions in the Bible. Should Christians judge or not? There are scriptures that seem to suggest that Christians should judge:

A Christian should shun other Christians who are living in sin. To do this requires judgement:

1Co 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
1Co 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
1Co 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

We are followers of Jesus. Jesus judged according to the will of God. If we judge for the purposes of fulfilling God's will:

Luke 6:40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

But there are also scriptures that suggest we should not judge:

Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

Luk 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

If those scriptures mean we should not judge at all, they contradict other biblical principles. The Bible can only contradict itself if we pull verses from it without using supporting scriptures. Supporting scriptures are other scriptures addressing the same subject and the verses surrounding the verse in question (context).

If we look at Matthew 7:1 and Luke 6:37, the context is:

Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
Mat 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

the problems is not judging but hypocritical judgement.

Matthew 7:1-5 can be summarised as follows:

If you judge others, you will also be judged according to the same standard that you set for others. Before you judge, make sure you are not guilty of the same thing you are judging others.

This is supported by other scriptures:

Rom 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

There are three verses in Romans 14 that suggest that we should not judge:

Rom 14:3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Rom 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

Now we have to take those verses into context. If we refuse to take those verses into context, them we can also take this verse without considering the context:

Rom 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

Some Christians could use the above to justify consumption of alcohol, others will use it to justify intimately kissing women they are not married to, others will use it to justify fornication. We should take it into context to avoid confusion. The context of the whole of Romans 14 is of course judging one another in eating, drinking, doing, watching, celebrating things where the Bible is not clear:

Rom 14:3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

We should not judge each others in matters were God has left it up to our individual conscience:

Rom 14:22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

It's clear that we are to judge because:

There are several commandments that require judgement:

Eph 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

We are to follow Jesus and Jesus judged:

Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

John 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

There is no doubt that the bible doesn't contradict itself on this matter. Neither is there any doubt that Christians can judge other Christians if they do it according to the scriptures:

* Do not judge according to the flesh or according to appearance but judge righteous judgement
* Do not judge hypocritically
* Do not judge in matters of conscience (celebrating birthdays, eating halaal food, watching TV)

All quotes surrounded by "quote boxes" are from ₦airaland Forum, originally made by Member wetu

Another thing that Christians are told to judge is the "Milk of the Word" & the "Meat of the Word." We are admonished to go beyond the foundational elements of the faith and continue into the more in-depth aspect, that we might build each other fruitfully.

More found here:
TOPICAL GUIDE: JUDGMENT, THE LAST,
TOPICAL GUIDE, JUDGMENT (including references to: Accountability; Condemnation; Discernment, Spiritual; Equity; Excommunication; God, Justice of; Jesus Christ, Judge; Judge; Judgment, the Last (mentioned above); Just; Justice; Law; Ordinance).

Aardverk, I hope this helps your search for "understanding" of such matters and wonder if you have pondered the riddle previously asked sufficiently to pose an answer?

This is a great post! Job well done. Pretend reps on the way!

To read it properly eveyone needs to look at the bottom of page 12. He has questions in quote boxes so it makes perfect sense. Those quote boxes don't carry over when I copied it over here.

[Edited by Sparrowhawke to preserve the quote boxes] Also, one may notice the little double arrow next to the name of the person quoted, clicking that double arrow is a link that takes you to the original post.

 

[P31Woman]

Thanks for putting in the boxes. That post is too good to be ignored.

 

[Sparkey]

Thanks for putting in the boxes. That post is too good to be ignored.

I found it on another forum (mentioned in the last quote box). And yes, I thought so too. Virtual Rep points givenwhere the credit is due, to metu. Strange thing about God's judgment. Since He looks at hearts, when His children hear something and spontaneously say "Amen," they are counted as having said it. So the credit, it seems, goes to you as well. We are all free to join ourselves into His labor(s).

 

[Sparkey]

I did not say that the rest of the world 'are simple people with low IQs' Edward. That is your misleading and mis-representational misquote of my words. I am sure you are well aware really that the average IQ is 100. That is the datum by which we are all judged. It follows therefore that 50% of us are below average. Do you need help with any of those words?

...

Edward, IF a simplistic reading of The Bible is in order, how do you decide whether to follow OR to ignore the clear instructions NOT to judge others? YOU may claim that The Holy Spirit guides you but the next man claims that he is guided differently.

You're taking this is circles. It's been well established in this thread that judging and judgment are different. The Holy Spirit absolutely does not guide people differently. Ephesians 4:1-6
...
Now what's so hard to understand about that Aardverk? How in the world can you say that the Holy Spirit guides someone differently than others? A house divided against itself can not stand. Matthew 12:25
...
The Holy Spirit does not teach different people different things, period.

Are we really to believe that someone who can not understand a simple concept like averages (or percentiles if you prefer that approach) can nevertheless make important decision like which passages of The Bible to take literally and which to disregard? From where I sit, it is pretty obvious that they cannot

To a non Christian such as yourself, you may be correct on this; but to Christians, it is simply not so. That you would think to easily disregard passages in the Bible simply shows your lack of faith and understanding.

Matthew 13: 10-13
The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”

11 He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12 Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables:

“Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand./ (NIV)

Greetings Edward,

You will do well to continue to address the subject and not the man (even when it appears such comments are being invited). This type of speech (if it appears as ad hominem), as you know, is prohibited in the Terms we have all agreed to in exchange for the quiet and peaceful enjoyment of the Service provided here. I've not edited your post, but am in conflict because of my duty to all Members here. If I were to use a scale with my thumb seen squarely planted on "our side", so as to cause the measure to be tilted in my or "our" own favor; that is called an uneven scale. It is also called an abomination.

That aside, I would like to continue the thought that you have expressed here, about seeing without seeing, and hearing without hearing. Kindly indulge me in this as I know that you already know and I speak thus to put both of us in remembrance of these things.

Deuteronomy 29:4 But to this day the LORD has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear.

Isaiah 42:19 Who is blind but my servant, and deaf like the messenger I send? Who is blind like the one committed to me, blind like the servant of the LORD?

Isaiah 42:20 You have seen many things, but have paid no attention; your ears are open, but you hear nothing."

Jeremiah 5:21 Hear this, you foolish and senseless people, who have eyes but do not see, who have ears but do not hear:

Ezekiel 12:2 "Son of man, you are living among a rebellious people. They have eyes to see but do not see and ears to hear but do not hear, for they are a rebellious people.

Ezekiel 20:49 Then I said, "Ah, Sovereign LORD! They are saying of me, 'Isn't he just telling parables?'"

John 9:39 Jesus said, "For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind."

Romans 11:8 as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day."

if it sounds like I am not taking my own advice here and please be quick to note that I am certainly not saying that these words were or are to be directed at you (or other contributors of this thread). For that, one may refer to Post #178 by reba. Indeed, the point that I wish to make is in reply to an observation about applying such things to unbelievers. None of the above quotes were spoken to unbelievers.

They were spoken to milk drinkers, to those who (for various reasons) have not exercised themselves sufficiently in the Word, much to their shame. Consider the tone, if you will, of the words spoken through the Prophet Isaiah in chapter 28. This is the chapter that contains an often quoted verse about how the Word of God is treated "line upon line, precept upon precept." I maintain that many of us fail to hear the admonition (and the nursery rhyme tone) contained within.

Isaiah 28 seen here.

Isa 28:6
He will be a spirit of justice
to him who sits in judgment,
a source of strength
to those who turn back the battle at the gate.

Isa 28:7
And these also stagger from wine
and reel from beer:
Priests and prophets stagger from beer
and are befuddled with wine;
they reel from beer,
they stagger when seeing visions,
they stumble when rendering decisions.

Isa 28:8
All the tables are covered with vomit
and there is not a spot without filth.

The Holy Spirit, through the Prophet Isaiah, tells us who is being spoken to (and who is not being addressed) in the next verse, Isa 28:9

“Who is it he is trying to teach?
To whom is he explaining his message?
To children weaned from their milk,
to those just taken from the breast?​

Then we hear something in the Hebrew that sounds like a nursery rhyme:
Isa 28:10

For it is:
Do and do, do and do,
rule on rule, rule on rule;
a little here, a little there.”​

We see it repeated shortly thereafter:
Isa 28:13

So then, the word of the LORD to them will become:
Do and do, do and do,
rule on rule, rule on rule;
a little here, a little there—
so that they will go and fall backward,
be injured and snared and captured.​

This is the sound in the Hebrew and why I think that it is an admonition to milk drinkers who have not yet exercised themselves in the Word (but should have), to those who have ample opportunity and who have "put out their shingle" advertising themselves to be men of God:

• ṣaw lā·ṣāw ṣaw lā·ṣāw qaw lā·qāw qaw

Isaiah 28 concludes with a curious instruction that seems to indicate that we are mere farmers, given charge over the Seed of God, and cautioned about how we handle it:

Caraway is not threshed with a sledge,
nor is a cartwheel rolled over cummin;
caraway is beaten out with a rod,
and cummin with a stick.
28 Grain must be ground to make bread;
so one does not go on threshing it forever.
Though he drives the wheels of his threshing cart over it,
his horses do not grind it.
29 All this also comes from the LORD Almighty,
wonderful in counsel and magnificent in wisdom.

This relates (in my mind) to the apparent contradiction that some says exists in admonitions regarding fools. In one place we are told to reply in a certain fashion, yet in another place it seems that this is not the case at all. It also relates to the fact that the Seed is planed underground, were we do not see it. We are told that the product of the seed, once grown, may be ground to make bread --but this is the now visible kind, or "grain" which comes after the harvest.

What seed is to grow in our brother? What about the seed that is planted in the Nations? Is it caraway, is it cummin? Is it seed for bread? What meal do we prepare for our Lord with our words to others and after it being prepared, what servant immediately sits and eats? Does not the good servant rather wait until his Master has eaten? As one who found favor while asking for healing has said, "Even dogs may eat crumbs fallen from this table."

Pardon my manners, I'm about to chow-down. :yes

All these things are for the Glory of God and I suspect that driving the cart over the seed in order to crush it, so that there may be life formed from your prayerful support of God's work in others, is your intent.

 

[vocalyocal]

Have to give my church some credit though, they're more interested in reaching out to the community. They have their teaching and theology and I haven't always agreed with them but I'm allowed to voice my objections and we all learn something.

there are alot of churches that do great deal of reaching out to the community, but the bible says that the command is to make disciples of all nations, while I admire all the good works and help given to a dieing world, making disciples is the charge given the church

and for the record a disciple is a "disciplined learner"

discipline is required to actually create disciples

and you can't have discipline without judgement

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

there are alot of churches that do great deal of reaching out to the community, but the bible says that the command is to make disciples of all nations, while I admire all the good works and help given to a dieing world, making disciples is the charge given the church

One makes friends first, then disciples. That's the purpose of the good works. They won't listen if they see no example.

and for the record a disciple is a "disciplined learner"

discipline is required to actually create disciples

"Learner" yes, but there is no indication in the Greek mathetes that "disciplined" is part of the definition.

 

[Aardverk]

It's not my claim that most people who profess to be a Chrisitan is one.

By which you mean that only people who think like you do should call themselves Christians?

 

[Mike]

Since warning upon warning was been ignored, I am giving this thread a breather. I suspect that we will reopen it after a little time for one last shot at respectful dialog before it is permanently closed and sent to Dead Threads.

It should help to point out that the beginning of our Statement of Faith reads as follows:

Doctrinal Statement

We believe that the Bible is inspired by God in its entirety, and is without error in the original autographs, a complete and final written revelation from God.

It should also be noted that we allow descending opinions and not only those who agree with 100% of our Statement of Faith, as some have suggested we do. Bagging on believers who hold to this AND personal comments on either side of the issue are not permitted.