Have we gone too far with the judging?

vocalyocal · Feb 22, 2013

Grazer said:
If I ran a church, I wouldn't ban them from it, I would welcome them. I'd probably have a chat with them and I certainly wouldn't encourage it but ultimately, would it be any of my business what they do in their private lives?

It depends would you want to have a church that was based on the bible or based on your own opinion

Grazer · Feb 22, 2013

vocalyocal said:
It depends would you want to have a church that was based on the bible or based on your own opinion

All churches are based on vicars/pastors interpretation of the bible anyway

vocalyocal · Feb 22, 2013

Grazer said:
All churches are based on vicars/pastors interpretation of the bible anyway

thats why Jesus sent His Holy Spirit, to lead us into all truth because His interpretation is easy to follow

Grazer · Feb 22, 2013

vocalyocal said:
thats why Jesus sent His Holy Spirit, to lead us into all truth because His interpretation is easy to follow

Funny how there are so many and every one claiming to be led by the spirit. I personally don't see an issue with that as I put in more detail in my latest blog.

Grazer · Feb 22, 2013

Have to give my church some credit though, they're more interested in reaching out to the community. They have their teaching and theology and I haven't always agreed with them but I'm allowed to voice my objections and we all learn something.

P31Woman · Feb 22, 2013

vocalyocal said:
actually the lack of judgement going on in the church today is what is destroying it, nobody says anything anymore, its become so seeker sensitive its lost its salt and light

I have to agree you. I am Southern Baptist. We believe Christ is the head of the Chruch and all our actions and doctrines are to be based on God's word not our own desires. My BF's church just had about all they could take and did some serious housecleaning. Now they are growing by leaps and bounds. God is moving in that fellowship. My own Chruch has been too slack. Many of us are openly mouring over the things (open sin) we see in our fellowship.

1 Corinthians 5

1 It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/1-corinthians/5.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-1his father's wife. 2http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/1-corinthians/5.html#fn-descriptionAnchor-aYou http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/1-corinthians/5.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-2have become http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/1-corinthians/5.html#fn-descriptionAnchor-barrogant and http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/1-corinthians/5.html#fn-descriptionAnchor-chave not http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/1-corinthians/5.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-3mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/1-corinthians/5.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-4removed from your midst. 3 For I, on my part, though http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/1-corinthians/5.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-5absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present. 4http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/1-corinthians/5.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-6In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/1-corinthians/5.html#fn-descriptionAnchor-dI with you in spirit, http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/1-corinthians/5.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-7with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 I have decided to http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/1-corinthians/5.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-8deliver such a one to http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/1-corinthians/5.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-9Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/1-corinthians/5.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-10the day of the Lord http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/1-corinthians/5.html#fn-descriptionAnchor-eJesus. 6http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/1-corinthians/5.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-11Your boasting is not good. http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/1-corinthians/5.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-12Do you not know that http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/1-corinthians/5.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-13a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough? 7Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/1-corinthians/5.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-14Passover also has been sacrificed. 8Therefore let us celebrate the feast, http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/1-corinthians/5.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-15not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote you in my letter http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/1-corinthians/5.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-16not to associate with immoral people ; 10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/1-corinthians/5.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-17idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. 11 But http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/1-corinthians/5.html#fn-descriptionAnchor-factually, I wrote to you not to associate http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/1-corinthians/5.html#fn-descriptionAnchor-gwith any so-called http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/1-corinthians/5.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-18brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/1-corinthians/5.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-19an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler -not even to eat with such a one. 12 For what have I to do with judging http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/1-corinthians/5.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-20outsiders ? http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/1-corinthians/5.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-21Do you not judge those who are within the church? 13 But those who are outside, God http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/1-corinthians/5.html#fn-descriptionAnchor-hjudges. http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/1-corinthians/5.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-22REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES .

We are not loving God or one another when we fail to do what God tells us to do and remove the individual(s) who persist in their sin.

P31Woman · Feb 23, 2013

Grazer said:
If I ran a church, I wouldn't ban them from it, I would welcome them. I'd probably have a chat with them and I certainly wouldn't encourage it but ultimately, would it be any of my business what they do in their private lives?

That is how we handle visitors and unbelievers.

If they say they desire to come to Christ they have already been told or we tell them then that, they must lay down their desires, die to self and their sinful ways and follow Christ. That is what repentance is all about. We come to the point that we realize our ways of thinking and living are wrong and desiring to turn from those ways to the ways of Christ.

Sparkey · Feb 23, 2013

1 Corinthians chapter 5 clearly instructs us to "clean out the leaven" regarding sexual immorality within the body.

We know that this type of sin is set apart and mentioned specifically because of the effect it has on our body, that doing this takes sin into our members.

Here is something else that it does; this sin uproots our harvest. Righteous Job knew this:

Job 31 New International Version (NIV)

Job 31:1 “I made a covenant with my eyes
not to look lustfully at a young woman.
2 For what is our lot from God above,
our heritage from the Almighty on high?

3 Is it not ruin for the wicked,
disaster for those who do wrong?
4 Does he not see my ways
and count my every step?
5 “If I have walked with falsehood
or my foot has hurried after deceit—
6 let God weigh me in honest scales
and he will know that I am blameless—
7 if my steps have turned from the path,
if my heart has been led by my eyes,
or if my hands have been defiled,

8 then may others eat what I have sown,
and may my crops be uprooted.

Jesus spoke of it:
John 15:1-5 (NIV)
“I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. “I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

The question raised by the OP, "Have we gone too far with the judging?" fails to address the possibility that we are not being faithful in all of our judgments.

Aardverk · Feb 23, 2013

Mike said:
...........We are told that we pick and choose verses to live our lives by. That may be true to some extent unconsciously, but we who hold that the Word is inerrant hold it all in esteem. We consider every word in it. I would call that a very bold claim coming from people who openly discard much of what they read in scripture.

Told by whom? Me?

This thread alone contains crystal clear evidence that you can read into The Bible whatever you want. Some quotes here clearly say that you should NOT judge others and some imply that you SHOULD judge others.

What any individual believes can therefore be supported to some extent by The Bible. Before we can regard The Bible as the inerrant word of God, we have to understand it. How can we understand which of conflicting instructions we should follow? That problem is so common, on a huge variety of subjects that we very obviously cannot use The Bible as a simple instruction book.

If you, or anyone wishes to claim that The Bible is the inerrant word of God, how do YOU decide which conflicting instruction to follow. Please don't say that The Holy Spirit guides you because the next man will claim to be guided in a different direction. Is that really God's intention - to create division?

Taking this just a little further, what is it that makes some people believe that The Bible IS the inerrant word of God? Really - what is it?

Aardverk · Feb 23, 2013

P31Woman said:
I don't know Gandhi....... I do know Jesus Christ. .......

An interesting choice of words. We do actually know vastly more indisputable facts about Gandhi than about Jesus.

I truly don't mean to be rude but if you are living in a world where Jesus is more real, to you, than actual people, it is hardly surprising that you say some of the things you do. It explains a lot :chin

Sparkey · Feb 23, 2013

Aardverk said:
Mike said:

...........We are told that we pick and choose verses to live our lives by. That may be true to some extent unconsciously, but we who hold that the Word is inerrant hold it all in esteem. We consider every word in it. I would call that a very bold claim coming from people who openly discard much of what they read in scripture.

Click to expand...

... How can we understand...?

This part of your response reminds me of a riddle. While studying the Bible and over a period of ten years (my children laugh at that part), I pondered such things as "Knowledge" and "Wisdom". There were references in Proverbs and other places that likened knowledge to Silver, Wisdom to God (oops, I meant "gold"). They way I told my kids about my "discovery" was in the form of a riddle that took me ten years to form.

Daddy Sparrow said:
If knowledge can be compared to Silver...
If wisdom may be compared to gold...

What is understanding?

Okay, my children chuckled to me about it, about the fact that this kind of thing was worked into me over such a long period of time, yet it was so simple. Of course the answer is "Platinum" (well, the answer provided from my children, that is). But what does the Bible say about understanding? What is it? Know ye the answer to the riddle of Sparrow the Dad?

P31Woman · Feb 23, 2013

Originally Posted by P31Woman

I don't know Gandhi....... I do know Jesus Christ.
.......

Aardverk said:
An interesting choice of words. We do actually know vastly more indisputable facts about Gandhi than about Jesus.

I did not say "we".....I said "I". It's personal knowledge.

jasoncran · Feb 23, 2013

ghandi is dead. Jesus aint. know the context is the idea of being familiar to the point of beyond understanding a figure to a more of a friendship.

P31Woman · Feb 23, 2013

Aardverk said:
Told by whom? Me?

This thread alone contains crystal clear evidence that you can read into The Bible whatever you want. Some quotes here clearly say that you should NOT judge others and some imply that you SHOULD judge others.

What any individual believes can therefore be supported to some extent by The Bible. Before we can regard The Bible as the inerrant word of God, we have to understand it. How can we understand which of conflicting instructions we should follow? That problem is so common, on a huge variety of subjects that we very obviously cannot use The Bible as a simple instruction book.

If you, or anyone wishes to claim that The Bible is the inerrant word of God, how do YOU decide which conflicting instruction to follow. Please don't say that The Holy Spirit guides you because the next man will claim to be guided in a different direction. Is that really God's intention - to create division?

Taking this just a little further, what is it that makes some people believe that The Bible IS the inerrant word of God? Really - what is it?

The Holy Spirit of God working in our life opening up scripture to us.

Read the thread again. Most of us who profess to be Christians and view the bible as God's inerrant word see NO contradiction. For us it's pretty clear.

Aardverk · Feb 23, 2013

Edward said:
Isn't it a contradiction to say a simplistic reading of the Word in not in order, then go on to say how most of the population are simple people with low IQs? (shakes head).

Edward, IF a simplistic reading of The Bible is in order, how do you decide whether to follow OR to ignore the clear instructions NOT to judge others? YOU may claim that The Holy Spirit guides you but the next man claims that he is guided differently. Can you not see that your interpretation, and the next man's must therefore amount to nothing more reliable than guesses? To think otherwise would, logically, mean that you regard your interpretive abilities to be better than the next man's. Most good Christians, and the rest of the world, would regard that as unjustified arrogance and there are so many cautions against arrogance in The Bible that you will need no help in finding them.

I did not say that the rest of the world 'are simple people with low IQs' Edward. That is your misleading and mis-representational misquote of my words. I am sure you are well aware really that the average IQ is 100. That is the datum by which we are all judged. It follows therefore that 50% of us are below average. Do you need help with any of those words? ;)('shakes head' - touchÃ© I think :approve

)

Are we really to believe that someone who can not understand a simple concept like averages (or percentiles if you prefer that approach) can nevertheless make important decision like which passages of The Bible to take literally and which to disregard? From where I sit, it is pretty obvious that they cannot :shame

Anyone can understand the Bible with the help of the Holy spirit. When one has humble heart and cracks that book open to seek God...he will find Him. That is a promise.

This is the crucial issue. IF 'anyone can understand The Bible', why are there so many conflicting interpretations? Just take this one small but crucially important aspect. We can all read many clear instructions telling us NOT to judge others. Those instructions seem to me and to millions of others to be 100% clear yet we have a great many people claiming to read the inerrant word of God in The Bible going about their daily lives judging others left, right and center and therefore ignoring those very clear instructions NOT to judge.

Why is that Edward? Who is it misreading those inerrant words? And indeed, why do some believe they are inerrant? Do tell me please, I really do not know. I have never met anyone who was willing to even try to explain why they thought The Bible was 'the inerrant word of God'. 'Because it says so in The Bible' is as far as most people go but every religious leader from the first sun-worshiper onward claimed to be able to 'know' the true wishes of their god. That I what all religious leaders do from all religions. They always have and sadly, I guess they always will.

Aardverk · Feb 23, 2013

P31Woman said:
I did not say "we".....I said "I". It's personal knowledge.

Wow! :gah

P31Woman · Feb 23, 2013

1 Corinthians 2 EVS

9 But, as it is written,

“What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,
nor the heart of man imagined,
what God has prepared for those who love him”—

10 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. 11 For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.

14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. 16 “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

reba · Feb 23, 2013

Watch the snarky remarks or this moderator will have to start judging :sad

Not necessarily applied to the last poster..

P31Woman · Feb 23, 2013

Aardverk said:
Edward, IF a simplistic reading of The Bible is in order, how do you decide whether to follow OR to ignore the clear instructions NOT to judge others? YOU may claim that The Holy Spirit guides you but the next man claims that he is guided differently. Can you not see that your interpretation, and the next man's must therefore amount to nothing more reliable than guesses? To think otherwise would, logically, mean that you regard your interpretive abilities to be better than the next man's. Most good Christians, and the rest of the world, would regard that as unjustified arrogance and there are so many cautions against arrogance in The Bible that you will need no help in finding them.

I did not say that the rest of the world 'are simple people with low IQs' Edward. That is your misleading and mis-representational misquote of my words. I am sure you are well aware really that the average IQ is 100. That is the datum by which we are all judged. It follows therefore that 50% of us are below average. Do you need help with any of those words? ;)('shakes head' - touchÃ© I think )

Are we really to believe that someone who can not understand a simple concept like averages (or percentiles if you prefer that approach) can nevertheless make important decision like which passages of The Bible to take literally and which to disregard? From where I sit, it is pretty obvious that they cannot

This is the crucial issue. IF 'anyone can understand The Bible', why are there so many conflicting interpretations? Just take this one small but crucially important aspect. We can all read many clear instructions telling us NOT to judge others. Those instructions seem to me and to millions of others to be 100% clear yet we have a great many people claiming to read the inerrant word of God in The Bible going about their daily lives judging others left, right and center and therefore ignoring those very clear instructions NOT to judge.

Why is that Edward? Who is it misreading those inerrant words? And indeed, why do some believe they are inerrant? Do tell me please, I really do not know. I have never met anyone who was willing to even try to explain why they thought The Bible was 'the inerrant word of God'. 'Because it says so in The Bible' is as far as most people go but every religious leader from the first sun-worshiper onward claimed to be able to 'know' the true wishes of their god. That I what all religious leaders do from all religions. They always have and sadly, I guess they always will.

Can I pull part of a sentence from your many post and make it appear that you believe the bible is the inerrant word of God..........you bet I can. That game don't fly. Scripture must be read in context and compared to one another "if" one desires to know the truth in a matter.

Second notice those of us who claim to believe God's word is inerrant don't have conflicting interpetations. That is the "we" group I belong to.

Sparkey · Feb 23, 2013

We know that the Bible is the Word of God and God cannot contradict Himself. Why does it appear that there are contradictions in the Bible. Should Christians judge or not? There are scriptures that seem to suggest that Christians should judge:

A Christian should shun other Christians who are living in sin. To do this requires judgement:

1Co 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
1Co 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
1Co 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

We are followers of Jesus. Jesus judged according to the will of God. If we judge for the purposes of fulfilling God's will:

Luke 6:40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

But there are also scriptures that suggest we should not judge:

Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

Luk 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

If those scriptures mean we should not judge at all, they contradict other biblical principles. The Bible can only contradict itself if we pull verses from it without using supporting scriptures. Supporting scriptures are other scriptures addressing the same subject and the verses surrounding the verse in question (context).

If we look at Matthew 7:1 and Luke 6:37, the context is:

Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
Mat 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

the problems is not judging but hypocritical judgement.

Matthew 7:1-5 can be summarised as follows:

If you judge others, you will also be judged according to the same standard that you set for others. Before you judge, make sure you are not guilty of the same thing you are judging others.

This is supported by other scriptures:

Rom 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

There are three verses in Romans 14 that suggest that we should not judge:

Rom 14:3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Rom 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

Now we have to take those verses into context. If we refuse to take those verses into context, them we can also take this verse without considering the context:

Rom 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

Some Christians could use the above to justify consumption of alcohol, others will use it to justify intimately kissing women they are not married to, others will use it to justify fornication. We should take it into context to avoid confusion. The context of the whole of Romans 14 is of course judging one another in eating, drinking, doing, watching, celebrating things where the Bible is not clear:

Rom 14:3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

We should not judge each others in matters were God has left it up to our individual conscience:

Rom 14:22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

It's clear that we are to judge because:

There are several commandments that require judgement:

Eph 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

We are to follow Jesus and Jesus judged:

Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

John 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

There is no doubt that the bible doesn't contradict itself on this matter. Neither is there any doubt that Christians can judge other Christians if they do it according to the scriptures:

* Do not judge according to the flesh or according to appearance but judge righteous judgement
* Do not judge hypocritically
* Do not judge in matters of conscience (celebrating birthdays, eating halaal food, watching TV)

All quotes surrounded by "quote boxes" are from ₦airaland Forum, originally made by Member wetu

Another thing that Christians are told to judge is the "Milk of the Word" & the "Meat of the Word." We are admonished to go beyond the foundational elements of the faith and continue into the more in-depth aspect, that we might build each other fruitfully.

More found here:
TOPICAL GUIDE: JUDGMENT, THE LAST,
TOPICAL GUIDE, JUDGMENT (including references to: Accountability; Condemnation; Discernment, Spiritual; Equity; Excommunication; God, Justice of; Jesus Christ, Judge; Judge; Judgment, the Last (mentioned above); Just; Justice; Law; Ordinance).

Aardverk, I hope this helps your search for "understanding" of such matters and wonder if you have pondered the riddle previously asked sufficiently to pose an answer?

Search

Search

Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?

Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need

Ever read the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ?

Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?

Have questions about the Christian faith?

How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?

Focus on the Family

Have we gone too far with the judging?

vocalyocal

Grazer

vocalyocal

Grazer

Grazer

P31Woman

P31Woman

Sparkey

Retired

Aardverk

Guest

Aardverk

Guest

Sparkey

Retired

P31Woman

jasoncran

P31Woman

Aardverk

Guest

Aardverk

Guest

P31Woman

reba

P31Woman

Sparkey

Retired