Having the Spirit but....

[Guest]

You mentioned having the Spirit as a sort of confirmation of being born of God. But I gotta ask just how do you know when/that you have the Spirit?

You know, through your faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[ejected]

Yea Truth....having the Spirit but living the natural. Quenching the Spirit.

 

[ejected]

T orT, what 'religion' are you hanging out with? Just curious my friend.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

T orT, what 'religion' are you hanging out with?

I've been around the block my friend. Nearly a decade was spent as part of the Missionary Baptist Church where I was reared. In the course of my studies I found the doctrine there to be wanting so I linked up with the Church of Christ where I was an active member for about 20 years. Around the early 2000s after traveling and experiencing congregations in had not grown up in I started questioning the doctrines that I had readily accepted and made efforts to examine all my beliefs against what the Bible actually said. In the course of time my studies and my committment to being honest with myself led me to divest myself of prior preconceptions and long held dogma to embrace scripture come what may. That led me to explore many other forms of Christianity like the Church of God and the 7th Day Adventist Church. By the late 2000s I had become a partial preterist and a home church advocate as the scriptures seemed to be an anti-religion document that backed these ideas. That is whatl I could see as being endorsed and taught by God's word that appears to stand opposed to the formal religious structure that is so pervasive in modern christendom.

Because you are not a christian. You think as a carnal man and are living for the flesh, so the Holy Spirit will not reveal the secret things of God to you. When one lives for the Spirit, and sets aside their intellect and fleshy desires and lives for the Spirit in mind and deed then the Holy Spirit will bear witness within us to our spirit and reveal things to us. The deeper truths of the Lord.

Ed, I have been a christian, committed to the Lord for decades. It is only within the last year or so that that has changed. From childhood I made it a point to hide the word in my heart that I might not sin against God. So, for you to make the comment and come to the conclusion you have come to is a bit condescending and offensive to me. What you are missing is that I have done the work, walked the walk, and studied and I keep studying to show myself approved. Forgive me if I don't buy into the opinions and feelings that dominate the christian community as being on par with what the Bible actually says.

Here's what you miss. For decades I would have made the claim that I was filled with the spirit and I fully believed that I was. I had been taught and was convinced that from the point I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Saviour and was later baptised into Christ that I was given the gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit. If someone were to ask me how I knew I had the HS, my answer would have been that I knew because I was a christian that made Jesus lord of my life. In time, I came to realize that my answer was a non-answer and that my conviction and belief was not proof of my claim. Additionally upon reading and studying more deeply I realized my idea of modern christians being sanctified by God's Holy Spirit was a bit unfounded. So being truer to what was written than what I felt and wanted to believe, I had to reconsider the idea that I had the Holy Spirit in me and any Christian living today had it in them.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The fruit of the Spirit

Seemingly the fruit of the Spirit applies to people doing good things (Galatians 6:10). The implication from Galatians 5:14-6:10 would appear to be saying that if a person is living a life of love for his fellow man, then that is evidence of them walking in the spirit.

What we are not told is that the love man is called upon to exhibit can only be practiced IF one has the spirit in them. Evidence and life experience shows us that love and faith in God do not always coincide for there are those without faith that are extremely loving, patient, and giving while there are those with faith that do not exhibit those same loving charactor traits.

How do I resolve the conflict in your own belief?

You say we can only do what we're supposed to do if we have the Spirit in us. Then you turn right around and say those without faith are loving, patient, etc.

Jesus said a tree is known by it's fruit. I've known too many 'do good' atheist and unbelievers to be deceived that they are somehow like Christians who bear the fruit of the kingdom. They'll show you their sheep's clothing just long enough to deceive you into thinking they are people increasing in the obedience required by God. Why they even care, I don't know. For they are the very ones who try to make God go away either by saying he doesn't exist or he's different according to the dumbed down version of God they say he is.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test? (2 Corinthians 13:5 NASB)

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

You say we can only do what we're supposed to do if we have the Spirit in us. Then you turn right around and say those without faith are loving, patient, etc.

My communication skills are lacking if this is the vibe I've been giving. Others have said that we can only do what we're supposed to do if we have the Spirit in us, but I contend that that is not necessarily the case at all.

I've known too many 'do good' atheist and unbelievers to be deceived that they are somehow like Christians who bear the fruit of the kingdom. They'll show you their sheep's clothing just long enough to deceive you into thinking they are people increasing in the obedience required by God.

Are you saying that people that do not believe in Jesus cannot really be people that have the charactor traits and exhibit love, joy, patience, goodness, caring, trust, reasonableness, and self control? Is religious belief necessary for one to be patient and kind, not be envious or conceited, and to not rejoice over evil but instead to delight in good? The idea that all those who lack religious faith are somehow schemers waiting to cause harm and reveal their true evil colors is without merit.

My initial point was that those that do not have faith, by nature if they love there fellow man as they love themselves can easily exhibit the qualities listed among the fruitage of God's Spirit. The one thing they will lack is faith in God. So if we do the math, the one decerning charactoristic the believer has is their belief in God. So the question becomes does the belief in God equate to having God's Holy Spirit inside of a person and if this is the case, where is the scriptural backing for this stance?

 

[ejected]

And around and around and around we go. The bible is clear 'few there be that find it'

 

[Elijah674]

Having the Holy Spirit is the First Requirement! Rom. 2:14-15 are Gentiles. Did these ones have the Holy Spirit given them? Had they accepted Christ & did not know it? And where was the Law of God seen?

So for starters, they did learn of Christ by His NATURE. (But OBEDIENCE FOLLOWED ON!) Now for the question, why was He given to them? The START is that they are REQUIRED to FOLLOW HIM into all of the rest of His LEADING! Rom. 8:1 + Rom. 8:14 And how do we differ than they???

Unless we never will follow His leading!

--Elijah

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

We who are 'born of the Spirit are led by the Spirit". John 3:8;

We see in Acts 10:44-44;
We do receive the Holy Spirit.

The problem is that we get caught up in the world and we are not walking in the Holy Spirit.
We need to get tuned back in and walk with Him again.
This is the sanctification process.

 

[ejected]

1 And [a]I could not speak unto you, brethren, as unto spiritual men, but as unto [b]carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I gave you milk to drink, and not [c]meat: for ye were not yet [d]able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as [e]men?
4 For when one saith, I am Paul’s, and another, I am Apollos’s, are ye not carnal?
5 [f]Who is Paul then? and who is Apollos, but the ministers by whom ye believed, and as the Lord gave to every man?
6 [g]I have planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase.
7 So then, neither is he that planteth anything, neither he that watereth, but God that giveth the increase.
8 And he that planteth, and he that watereth, are one, and every man shall receive his wages, according to his labor.
9 For we together are God’s [h]laborers: ye are God’s husbandry, and God’s building.
10 According to the grace of God given to me, as a skillful master builder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon: [i]but let every man take heed how he buildeth upon it.
11 [j]For other foundation can no man lay, than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 [k]And if any man build on this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, timber, hay, or stubble,
13 [l]Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by the fire: and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
14 If any man’s work, that he hath built upon, abide, he shall receive wages.
15 If any man’s work burn, he shall lose, but [m]he shall be saved himself: nevertheless yet as it were by the fire.
16 [n]Know ye not that ye are the Temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man [o]destroy the Temple of God, him shall God destroy: for the Temple of God is holy, which ye are.
18 [p]Let no man deceive himself: If any man among you seem to be wise in this world, let him be a fool, that he may be wise.
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God: for it is written, He [q]catcheth the wise in their own craftiness.
20 And again, The Lord knoweth that the thoughts of the wise be vain.
21 [r]Therefore let no man [s]rejoice in men: for all things are [t]yours.
22 Whether it be Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the [u]world, or life, or death, whether they be things present, or things to come, even all are yours,
23 And ye Christ’s, and Christ God’s.

 

[ejected]

The previous post is 1Cor.3. The Geneva bible 1599. King James Hated this bible for the foot notes. Anyway.

Vs.1-3. Note that these are born from above Christians all. Yet Paul is repromanding them for walking after the flesh and not after the Spirit. Not only by using human reason, logic, worldly wisdom, but these things led them into open sin.

Vs.3 and4.Note the first denominational divisions and 'man worship' on display. 'We love Pastor Wonderful'. 'Our Pastor Onthetake is dynamic'. 'Yes but our Pastor Good Looking is making a real impact'.

Vs.9-12. You all want a church building. Here it's folks.

Vs.10-15. Here's what I'm saying. Build by the flesh: reason, logic, worldly wisdom, human intellect will all burn up.
Build according as The indwelling Spirit leads, this will please God and endure.

Vs.16 and17. We are the temple. Each individual is the temple. If any man chips away at the individuals faith through vain deceit: carnal reasoning of the word of God, logical treatise of the word, worldly wisdom mixed with the word, thus destroying the individual temple, God will,destroy.

I don't believe this means hell for the 'yet carnal' men who operate by the flesh in a false upper rank ministry, but it does mean their works will burn up for they were not of God...not of the Spirit. Self carnal interest driven by personal interest. Also many with pure intentions but still not functioning in and by the Holy Spirit which has always been His plan from the garden on.

Vs.18-20. Again the wisdom, intellect, self power, reason, noble desires but not Spirit led, of this world won't cut it.

Vs.20and21. All the natural is vain. Do not exalt and fawn over carnal men and their gifted attributes that are void of the Spirit.

Vs.22 and23. All thing are not the possessions of a few. But God works all things through every member. The gift of God belongs to all the body.

 

[Elijah674]

We who are 'born of the Spirit are led by the Spirit". John 3:8;

We see in Acts 10:44-44;
We do receive the Holy Spirit.

The problem is that we get caught up in the world and we are not walking in the Holy Spirit.
We need to get tuned back in and walk with Him again.
This is the sanctification process.

OK: These ones were given the Holy Spirit. (fact) So now what? There were two more that also were given the Holy Spirit! Acts 5 has both Ananias & Sapphira his wife who made shipwreck! (by lying to the Spirit 1 John 3:4)

This is again the time of the Latter Rain of Act 2:17-19 & Joel 2:28-29. This is a very serious time to be living in... Acts 5:11!
So the bottom/line has ALL required to get it right! No more of this hope/scotch tower of Babbling stuff!

[4] And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
That is Lords call is... Rev. 18:4

Not like what we are hearing all around here... We are Christians & are doing the Lords will! We are learning! (After 120 years of the Holy Spirits Striving! huh?? Gen. 6:3.. and some even teach that there was no Holy Spirit up until Acts)

But Rev. 18:4 will be Obeyed by 'some' who believe that God has an ETERNAL LAW COVENANT! Heb. 13:20 which is an Eternal Promise, & 'BELIEVED' that God knew all of this before they were even created + THEY MUST BE FAITHFUL until death! Heb. 11:1-2 [[That IS FAITH!]]

--Elijah

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Are you saying that people that do not believe in Jesus cannot really be people that have the charactor traits and exhibit love, joy, patience, goodness, caring, trust, reasonableness, and self control? Is religious belief necessary for one to be patient and kind, not be envious or conceited, and to not rejoice over evil but instead to delight in good?

Under the conditions that the Bible speaks about, 'yes'.

Being Spirit led means operating in the Spirit in and under circumstances where natural people do not think it reasonable to be peaceable, loving, joyful, patient, faithful, etc. Faith in God is necessary to be what God says his people are to be like. Divorce and remarriage are good examples. I've never talked to an unbeliever or an atheist who did not exhibit toward their enemies the goodness they are sure they have (for a God they are sure either does not exist, or who really doesn't require what we Christians say he requires, lol). Just bringing up the subject of their enemies (usually devout Christians) bringing forth some of the most virulent cursing I've ever heard. But they sure do a good job down at the local food line for the poor. (This brings up another aspect of their 'goodness'. I'll go into detail later.)

The idea that all those who lack religious faith are somehow schemers waiting to cause harm and reveal their true evil colors is without merit.

Not only does it take faith in God to have the Holy Spirit in the first place (specifically faith in the blood of Christ), but it takes faith in God to trust that things will be alright if you do what by the nature of things is the very wrong thing to do when confronted with distress or discomfort. The Holy Spirit is the sign that one is in covenant with God, for only those who trust in the blood of Christ receive the Holy Spirit. Only those with the Holy Spirit can have the courage to do things that by nature are completely unreasonable and unnatural to do...like being nice to your enemy, even caring about them.

...if we do the math, the one decerning charactoristic the believer has is their belief in God.

I suggest the one discerning characteristic of the believer is that their fruit thrives under pressure and in the most unnatural of places. And more and more as they grow up in Christ.

So the question becomes does the belief in God equate to having God's Holy Spirit inside of a person and if this is the case, where is the scriptural backing for this stance?

The backing starts way back in Exodus and Leviticus where the Holy Spirit entered the Temple upon the satisfactory completion of the Tabenacle (the dwelling place of God), and completion of the required sacrifices by the appointed Priest/ Priesthood.

And so it is today. When a person first believes they get set apart and dedicated as the dwelling place for God (his Temple) and God moves in (see Exodus 40:33-35 NASB). And having offered up the acceptable offering of Christ to God in that Temple, the Temple of their body, the glory of the Lord comes out of the Temple for all to see (Leviticus 9:22-24 NASB).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The previous post is 1Cor.3. The Geneva bible 1599. King James Hated this bible for the foot notes. Anyway.

Vs.1-3. Note that these are born from above Christians all. Yet Paul is repromanding them for walking after the flesh and not after the Spirit. Not only by using human reason, logic, worldly wisdom, but these things led them into open sin.

Vs.3 and4.Note the first denominational divisions and 'man worship' on display. 'We love Pastor Wonderful'. 'Our Pastor Onthetake is dynamic'. 'Yes but our Pastor Good Looking is making a real impact'.

Vs.9-12. You all want a church building. Here it's folks.

Vs.10-15. Here's what I'm saying. Build by the flesh: reason, logic, worldly wisdom, human intellect will all burn up.
Build according as The indwelling Spirit leads, this will please God and endure.

Vs.16 and17. We are the temple. Each individual is the temple. If any man chips away at the individuals faith through vain deceit: carnal reasoning of the word of God, logical treatise of the word, worldly wisdom mixed with the word, thus destroying the individual temple, God will,destroy.

I don't believe this means hell for the 'yet carnal' men who operate by the flesh in a false upper rank ministry, but it does mean their works will burn up for they were not of God...not of the Spirit. Self carnal interest driven by personal interest. Also many with pure intentions but still not functioning in and by the Holy Spirit which has always been His plan from the garden on.

Vs.18-20. Again the wisdom, intellect, self power, reason, noble desires but not Spirit led, of this world won't cut it.

Vs.20and21. All the natural is vain. Do not exalt and fawn over carnal men and their gifted attributes that are void of the Spirit.

Vs.22 and23. All thing are not the possessions of a few. But God works all things through every member. The gift of God belongs to all the body.

May I suggest to you that the 'work' that gets burned up and for which the laborer gets no reward for is the building block they had hoped they were adding to the building of God (another person) through their labors on the building of God proved to not be that at all and was consumed in the Judgment, having been made of perishable, not imperishable material.

With this in mind, let us all be careful how we build. Some of these doctrines people toss around these days won't build anyone up into that which can withstand the coming Judgment of heat and fire when 'everything that is shaken will be shaken' and only that which can withstand the shaking and the fire will remain in the kingdom. The work of the laborer which remains being rewarded, not the work of the laborer that didn't.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession..." (Ephesians 1:13-14 NASB)

21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, 22 who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge." (2 Corinthians 1:21-22 NASB)


Everyone who hears the message and believes the message, placing their trust in Christ for the forgiveness of sins receives the Holy Spirit as a deposit, a guarantee of what is to come. That's why the Holy Spirit is the evidence of being in covenant with God. The Holy Spirit is how we know we have made peace with God and can have confidence on the Day of Wrath that we will be saved, not destroyed.

 

[ejected]

We who worship by the Spirit of God are the ones who are truly circumcised. We rely on what Christ Jesus has done for us. We put no confidence in human effort. (Philippians 3:3 NLT)

By the Spirit.

 

[reba]

Some times i have to wonder why folks think God gave us the whole of Scripture.