Should we obey church leadership, or the Holy Spirit?

[Iconoclast]

What if the local churches ️ aren’t going to tolerate a believer?

What do you mean. I am not sure what you are saying? Why would a local church, not "tolerate" a believer?

 

[Christ_empowered]

Ok so…

I’m an outcast. I’ve been heckled inside churches locally…the local mega church outside a progressive Presbyterian church and outside local SBC churches ️. Long story…


I ran afoul of the mental health industry and now I’m a pariah.

 

[Iconoclast]

Ok so…

I’m an outcast. I’ve been heckled inside churches locally…the local mega church outside a progressive Presbyterian church and outside local SBC churches ️. Long story…


I ran afoul of the mental health industry and now I’m a pariah.

A biblical church should be able to minister to people no matter what challenges have come to them.
Everyone has some struggles. Some more than others.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

A biblical church should be able to minister to people no matter what challenges have come to them.
Everyone has some struggles. Some more than others.

The thing is, most churches are NOT biblical, even the good ones rarely teach prophecies which you really need to know, and the bad ones don’t even teach the Bible, they’ve gone totally apostate, and therein lies the challenge. This is meant to be though, both Jesus and Paul warned about false prophets and apostate churches, among the seven churches in Revelation, only two are good, five are bad, and Laodicea the last one is the worst, it’s up to individuals to make a judgement call and follow the Holy Spirit - “he who has an ear, let him hear!”

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

You do know you are saying that God (who is Spirit) cannot be trusted, right?

There’s the Holy Spirit, and there’re the EVIL conniving spirits. Every worldly ideology, philosophy or religion could be an evil spirit. You gotta know the difference, make sure it’s the Holy Spirit before you put your trust in it. If you’re not filled with the Holy Spirit, you’re doomed to be filled with evil spirits, because an empty human soul abhors a spiritual vacuum as much as nature abhors a physically vacuum.

 

[GodsGrace]

Those who claim to be led outside the authority of a faithful local church , are unbiblical.

What if the local church is wrong?
How is a difference of teaching settled?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

What if the local church is wrong?
How is a difference of teaching settled?

Church, “ekklesia”, means “called out assembly”, and it was originally a political term for special committees gathered up to address particular issues and grievances. It’s NOT an organization or a building. If your local church is wrong, like publicly promoting transgenderism and climate change wrong, I’m afraid you have to find some like minded peers and form your own worship group. Let God call you guys out for a right assembly that’s aligned with biblical values.

 

[GodsGrace]

Church, “ekklesia”, means “called out assembly”, and it was originally a political term for special committees gathered up to address particular issues and grievances. It’s NOT an organization or a building. If your local church is wrong, like publicly promoting transgenderism and climate change wrong, I’m afraid you have to find some like minded peers and form your own worship group. Let God call you guys out for a right assembly that’s aligned with biblical values.

Transg is obviously wrong.
What about OSAS?
It could be supported either way.

 

[for_his_glory]

Your aversion to the church as you have often spoken of leads you down a dangerous path. You are free to go down that path, but it is not a good one.

There is a big difference between obeying church leadership vs. obeying and being taught by the Holy Spirit working through those who have been called and anointed by the Holy Spirit to preach the word of God. Look at what God said to the churches in Asia Minor as warnings as these types of churches still exist today and up to the time Christ returns.

Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Rev 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
Rev 2:15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.

Rev 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
Rev 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Transg is obviously wrong.
What about OSAS?
It could be supported either way.

Salvation is given, blessing is earned; resurrection is given, reward (in God's millennial kingdom) is earned. If you don't wrestle with God till your hip breaks like Jacob, God won't bless you; and if your work fails to pass the test of fire, you won't get any reward. The bottom line is, backsliding Christians will not lose their salvation, but they'll end up worse than pagans. I also believe that, at the end of millennial reign, there'll be a satanic rebellion, that's where unprofitable Christians will end up in.

 

[GodsGrace]

There is a big difference between obeying church leadership vs. obeying and being taught by the Holy Spirit working through those who have been called and anointed by the Holy Spirit to preach the word of God. Look at what God said to the churches in Asia Minor as warnings as these types of churches still exist today and up to the time Christ returns.

Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Rev 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
Rev 2:15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.

Rev 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
Rev 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Could you address my post no. 268?
As you surely know, this problem really bothers me.

 

[GodsGrace]

Salvation is given, blessing is earned; resurrection is given, reward (in God's millennial kingdom) is earned. If you don't wrestle with God till your hip breaks like Jacob, God won't bless you; and if your work fails to pass the test of fire, you won't get any reward. The bottom line is, backsliding Christians will not lose their salvation, but they'll end up worse than pagans. I also believe that, at the end of millennial reign, there'll be a satanic rebellion, that's where unprofitable Christians will end up in.

But this is YOUR opinion.
I believe a person can forfeit their salvation.

So who's right?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

But this is YOUR opinion.
I believe a person can forfeit their salvation.

So who's right?

Have the five bad churches forfeited their salvation? Jesus still knew them and their works, didn’t he. He wouldn’t have addressed to them if they had forfeited their salvation. It is written in Luke 12:48 that a bad servant would receive more lashes than non servants, and Jesus didn’t say there that a bad servant would be fired. That’s the word of god, not my opinion.

 

[for_his_glory]

These false ideas lead people away from God and His Church. The Op. welcomed different points of view, so here we are.

Many churches actually lead many astray causing a stumblingblock as they teach the doctrines of the devil. What I have given is not a point of view, but that of what Jesus has already spoken to the Church. Read Rev chapter two and three as these are the instructions and discipline of God for His true Church that we walk worthy of His name bringing honor and glory to His name.

Rev 2:12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;
Rev 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
Rev 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
Rev 2:15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.
Rev 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
Rev 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

But this is YOUR opinion.
I believe a person can forfeit their salvation.

So who's right?

If you still don’t get it, see the blessings and curses in Deut. 28. A backsliding believer WON’T lose their salvation, but they’ll be cursed, the severity of the curse depends on how far they have gone astray. As long as they truly repent like the prodigal son, they’re still welcomed back to the Father’s embrace.

 

[for_his_glory]

Could you address my post no. 268?
As you surely know, this problem really bothers me.

Could you be more specific on what part problems bothers you, then I will reply.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

But it is wholely foreign to Scripture to say that communications from God's Holy Spirit, the most trustworthy person in the universe, are highly subjective, sensation/impression based, and must be vetted against Scripture before being trusted.

But this isn't so. All that I've explained to you concerning this matter is derived from Scripture, as my posts clearly demonstrate, so it is false to say my views are "wholly foreign to Scripture." What they are is wholly foreign to modern Christianity afflicted with secular current of thought and plagued by hyper-charismatic influences. My view, however, is entirely in line with God's word.

I don't remember reading any Bible verses that say when God speaks to you, you are to hold Him at bay until you can verify what He says to you is found in Scripture.

When I look at Scriptures that describe God leading people, I see unquivocal evidence of God through His Spirit telling people what He wants them to do and I see an expectation that they will do what He says.

Again, it is always assumed that when the Holy Spirit is said to have communicated with someone in Scripture it was by way of an inner impression, or "voice" in their mind, or impulse to act in some way. But this assumption has no concrete ground anywhere in God's word. Instead, God communicated via angels, dreams, visions, prophets, burning bushes, wet and dry fleeces, a hand writing on a wall; He even came to earth in-the-flesh and talked with humans face-to-face. But I know of no place in God's word where it says "The Spirit spoke in his mind, directing him with impressions and impulses." Could God direct us in this direct-to-mind way? Of course. But if He did, this sort of direction would be discerned by inspection/evaluation of it under the light of His Truth given in Scripture.

In my experience, those most keen to subjectivize God's leading (especially in the most bizarre and blasphemous ways) are those who are most ignorant of, and/or most in violation of, His word. Interesting, that.

Yet, when we read what Jesus said about the Father who lived in His heart's insructions, He indicates that He heard loud and clear what the Father wanted Him to say and do, and He limited his words and actions to only what the Father who lived in Him told Him to say and do. Nowhere do we see any indication that He vetted what the Father told Him against Scripture before He followed through on His instructions or that through experience He knew what the Bible said and could instantly determine that what the Father said was consistent with Scripture.

• Though He was God in the flesh, Jesus did nothing unless He saw God the Father do it first. (John 5:19-20, 30)
• He did not teach anything unless God the Father taught Him first, and He did not say anything until God the Father authorized Him to say it. (John 12:49-50, 14:10-11)
• He did not use His own judgment, nor did He seek to do what He Himself wanted, but He depended on the judgment of God, and He did God’s will. (John 5:30, 6:38)
• Everything Jesus did while He was on this earth was because He knew without a shadow of a doubt that the Father wanted Him to do it. (John 8:28–29)

In John 12:50, Jesus said, "Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak." In John 14:10 Jesus said, "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works." And in John 5:30, He said, "I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge".

The Father spoke to Him from inside His heart, and those communications were dear to Him. And He followed through on them without question. And now we see the same paradigm applies to us. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit live in our hearts. He tells us what to do and what to say. And as we hear, so we judge. Nowhere are we told to hold Him at bay or to vet what He says. We are told to abide in Him, for without Him, we can do nothing.

 

[Iconoclast]

What if the local church is wrong?

Rom14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
What is a local Church? It is an assembly of people.
What does a local church believe?
A biblical local church should have a Confession of faith, a doctrinal statement that members agree to.
We do not exist in the days of the Apostles. many things have taken place.
Everyone claims they have truth.
It is the responsibility of each individual to examine any church they intend to align themselves with. If a church is found fatally defective, you should not join, but flee from them.

Proverbs 21:16
The man that wandereth out of the way of understanding shall remain in the congregation of the dead.

How is a difference of teaching settled?

A Confession of faith that does not contradict scripture.

 

[Iconoclast]

There is a big difference between obeying church leadership vs. obeying and being taught by the Holy Spirit working through those who have been called and anointed by the Holy Spirit to preach the word of God.

OK, FHG, here is why your posts I find troubling. Your post assumes God called leaders are not taught by the Spirit of God! You are suggesting here and in your other posts that you are annointed, and they are not. You are spiritual and they are carnal! You set aside all manner of solid teaching, then substitute your ideas instead.
Sometimes you get it right, and sometimes you are way off.
Let me go back and quote you as you do this from this thread alone, but you have done this often;

Latin root word for religion is bondage, which is different then that of Gods pure religion of James 1:27, but that of following tradition and the doctrine of a mans church, not Gods true church. Religion tells you what you can and cannot do and becomes socially acceptable by mans interpretations, traditions and doctrines.

traditions and doctrines of a mans church??? The Church is God's!

 

[for_his_glory]

OK, FHG, here is why your posts I find troubling. Your post assumes God called leaders are not taught by the Spirit of God! You are suggesting here and in your other posts that you are annointed, and they are not. You are spiritual and they are carnal! You set aside all manner of solid teaching, then substitute your ideas instead.
Sometimes you get it right, and sometimes you are way off.
Let me go back and quote you as you do this from this thread alone, but you have done this often;

traditions and doctrines of a mans church??? The Church is God's!

I never said or assumed God called leaders are not taught by the Holy Spirit. I do not have to justify myself to you as you do not know my relationship with God, but will say this that I have never asked anyone to believe me, but to take the scriptures and history I give and study that for themselves. I have been wrong at times, but the Holy Spirit has always worked through others to correct me and for that I am very thankful.

You can see in these scriptures below that not everyone who is a preacher/teacher are anointed and called of God as there are many antichrist that have gone out into the world that deceive others by a tickle your ear socially acceptable false doctrine.

If they were God called then they would understand only the Holy Spirit who works in us and through those who have been anointed will lead all into truth by that of what Jesus has already taught. Not all of Israel are Jews just as all churches are not of God. There are over 5000 different religions in the world and do you believe each one is God's true Church?

Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.