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Growth He and We are Risen

netchaplain

Member
Have you yet to encounter, that even though you know you’re right with God in Christ, there occasionally seems to be something still radically missing? Regardless the effect, the cause is the same. Due to the separation from the majority of the populous of society (world) which accompanies the believer’s life, we are caused to notice the great source of worldly affections we were such a long time familiar with and depended upon have left a void, which the Lord Jesus is gradually refilling—with Himself (Col 3:4).

It usually takes a while, but believers are eventually brought to the realization that there is no call for us to expect there to be an attempt to make this world a better place for God and for those who His, because not only will this be put upon the Lord Jesus Himself at His next appearing, but the world from Adam until then is already made shipwreck and condemned.

The “Kingdom” can only come with its King, and the world’s kingdoms will have nothing in what He will bring, thus the protocol of the saint in glorifying God is twofold; to draw the “lost,” and strengthen the “saved.”

“No one engaged in warfare (2Co 10:4) entangles himself with the affairs of this life, that he may please him (God) who enlisted him as a soldier (2Ti 2:4). See also 1Co 7:31.

-NC


He and We are Risen​

I am afraid that when we speak of being here for Christ it is often the thought of our service or conduct that is prominent, and therefore it is well to be reminded that there is something over which the Lord Jesus is more concerned than He is over our conduct or our service. It is that “garden closed,” that “spring shut up,” that “fountain sealed,” from which all others but Himself are excluded—the hidden spring of those affections which alone satisfy His heart, or render conduct and service acceptable to Him.

No doubt there are many believers who have not yet reached the risen Lord Jesus*, simply because they have not had a Paul to “espouse” them to that “one husband” (2Co 11:2). They have not “heard” of His glorious victory, or of His new place as the Risen One; they are struggling on in Egypt’s darkness and bondage; their lives are being wasted in worldly thoughts and upon worldly things, and in many cases they only believe they are doing God’s service—going in for politics, peace movements, etc. They are trying to improve Egypt, instead of seeing that the whole scene is under the Enemy’s influence and the judgment of God.

If believers realized that the whole system of the world was under the judgment of God, they would be heartily glad to be cleat of it all. But how few there are to proclaim that the world is a judged thing before God, and that the Lord Jesus and all the blessings of Christianity can only be found on the ground of resurrection and ascension. How few there are in Christendom today who are really seeking to bring souls to a Risen Lord—to espouse them to one Husband.

You know as a matter of fact that to be a good citizen, and to take part in everything that is supposed to tend to the improvement of the world, is looked upon by many even evangelical believers at the present day as a part of Christianity; and all the great religious bodies are more or less occupied in seeking to improve their position and enlarge their influence in the world.

We cannot be too careful as to the influences which we allow to act upon us. We are affected by all that we hear and see and read—unconsciously it may be. The damage is done before we know it; like Ephraim, we have grey hairs and know it not (Hos 7:9). I do not think that you can put yourself under the influences of the ministry which is generally found amongst evangelical Christians, either by hearing or reading it, without suffering loss to your soul*. You will find your heart turned back to things here—perhaps religious things—and correspondingly brought away from the Lord Jesus in glory*. True affection for Him is blighted thereby, for He can only be known personally in glory, as One utterly rejected by man.

“Therefore, behold, I will allure her, and bring her into the wilderness, and speak comfortably unto her” [margin, “to her heart”] (Hos 2:14). If our affections are true to the Lord Jesus, they will make this world a wilderness to us; but if our affections do not make it a wilderness, His government will—He loves us too much to allow our heart to nestle here; and He makes us conscious that it is in a wilderness that He may have opportunity in our loneliness and our sorrow to speak to our hearts. The Voice that could not be heard in the din and bustle, and amid the laughter of the city, can be heard in the silence and solitude of the wilderness. Have you never has a wilderness interview with the Lover of your soul?

- C A Coates



Poster’s Notes:
* “reached the risen Lord Jesus”: I believe this could be in reference to saved individuals who have believed in Christ but have yet to learn Scripture which pertains to His doctrines, as in 2Co 11:4, which can be to the weakening of one’s faith (Mat 22:29), but never breaking it (Mat 24:24), because being “espoused” to Christ results in definite union (John 6:37).

* “loss to your soul”: again, loss of strength in faith but never falling, as an apostate (one who knowingly professes Christ falsely) would; which is dependent on Christ, not the believer (Jude 1:24).

* “brought away from the Lord Jesus in glory”: possibly a reference to being mentally distracted from the Lord in His present glory—Heaven (Col 3:1, 2).



Daily Devotional by Miles J Stanford
http://www.abideabove.com/hungry-heart/
 
Yes, as soldiers we are not to get involved in civilian affairs. We are looking to please the one who enlists us.

We are fishing for souls.

Not trying to influence the polls. That is a worldly affair and being pulled into it will pull us into a web of deception. We have to keep our minds pure and focus on the Light.
 
Yes, as soldiers we are not to get involved in civilian affairs. We are looking to please the one who enlists us.

We are fishing for souls.

Not trying to influence the polls. That is a worldly affair and being pulled into it will pull us into a web of deception. We have to keep our minds pure and focus on the Light.
Amen JAS - God uses this life to bring us to Him, and the hardness from it occurs for that reason. The last dispensation (Millennium) will be used to bring Him to us.
 
Here in America you hear people praying for God to bless America, but that is not going to happen unless everyone would turn back to Him then God would bless our land. We not only should be praying for those in unbelief, but also need to be witnessing Christ to them.

Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
 
One of the most enlightening things I've learned is that there has never been a time, nor will there ever be prior to the last dispensation, when the majority of any nation consists of believers, which is another reason God is going to use only the final dispensation of time on this old Earth (Millennium) to prepare to bring in His eternal kingdom.

I've found it in my understanding to differentiate between the unbelievers, and the lost. The lost are those who will believe but have yet, but will inevitably enter into salvation. The unbeliever is one who has not and will never believe.

Since we do not know for certain who they are, it is as you've mentioned, that "supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men" (1Ti 2:1).

Jesus is Savior for "all men," but He is Savior only to the believer (1Ti 4:10), which will always consist of a minority in number within the populous of mankind.
 
Jesus is Savior for "all men," but He is Savior only to the believer (1Ti 4:10), which will always consist of a minority in number within the populous of mankind.

Amen, people really need to understand that.
 
Yes, as soldiers we are not to get involved in civilian affairs. We are looking to please the one who enlists us.

We are fishing for souls.

Not trying to influence the polls. That is a worldly affair and being pulled into it will pull us into a web of deception. We have to keep our minds pure and focus on the Light.
I politely disagree. I suggest that the Bible teaches that rather than withdrawing from "worldly" affairs, we (Christians) are called to announce the Kingship of Jesus and act as instruments to try to transform the institutions of our world so that they increasingly manifest kingdom of God principles.

I am prepared to defend this position Biblically. I suggest that while we are to indeed evince radically different values and behaviours, we are nevertheless commissioned to engage the world to seek its healing and redemption.
 
..... God is going to use only the final dispensation of time on this old Earth (Millennium) to prepare to bring in His eternal kingdom.
I propose that the Scriptures teach that His kingdom is already here, although clearly not in its state of final consummation.


And he said to them, "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power


When does this happen? At the resurrection of course.
 
I propose that the Scriptures teach that His kingdom is already here, although clearly not in its state of final consummation.
Hi Drew - You present a good point that should be known, and in a certain degree of truth you're correct, because the believer is part of the Kingdom, for "the kingdom of God is within you" (Luke 17:21), and "the kingdom of God is come unto you" (Mat 12:28), which is reference to Christ's presence.

But this does not intend that the kingdom of God, nor the kingdom of heaven is now on the Earth, but that which will be in the Kingdom (us and Christ) is now on Earth. Jesus has yet to say, "Come, ye blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" (Mat 25:34). He also exclaimed, "I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come" (Luke 22:18), which is when He will "drink it new with you in My Father's Kingdom" (Mat 26:29).

Thank you for the reply and for the significant point you made. God's blessings to your Family!
 
I believe that Jesus is already king not over an "inner spiritual domain" (only) but also a king over this present world. And I think the Scripture supports this.

You refer to Luke 17 and translations that suggest the kingdom is "inside" the believer. Here is my counterargument:

Some assert that a brief of teaching in Luke 17, particularly verse 21, locate the kingdom of God as “inside” the believer, with the implication that the broader world does not fall under its jurisdiction. Here are several translations of verse 21:

NET: nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is in your midst.”

NIV: nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is within you."

NASB: nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’ For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst."

NLT: You won’t be able to say, ‘Here it is!’ or ‘It’s over there!’ For the Kingdom of God is among you."

MSG:Nor when someone says, 'Look here!' or, 'There it is!' And why? Because God's kingdom is already among you."

BBE: And men will not say, See, it is here! or, There! for the kingdom of God is among you.

NRSV: nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There it is!’ For, in fact, the kingdom of God is among you."

NKJV: "nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you."

Note how only 2 of these 8 translations render the last bit as “within you”. All the other translations have Jesus telling the listeners that the Kingdom is “in your midst” or “among you” – suggesting, of course, that the kingdom is “present right now”.

And the fatal blow to the “within you” interpretation arises from who Jesus is speaking to:

Now at one point the Pharisees asked Jesus when the kingdom of God was coming, so he answered, “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed

If Jesus is saying that the “location” of the kingdom is specifically “within the human person”, Jesus is telling the Pharisees that the kingdom of God is within them, the Pharisees, in this sense.

Not likely, of course – the Pharisees were precisely the ones in whom the kingdom was not present.
 
I believe that Jesus is already king not over an "inner spiritual domain" (only) but also a king over this present world.
I see no significant problem if you choose to believe this, and it's okay if you want to continue to pursue this concept, but since it's not essential doctrine I usually do not continue debating an issue. I will just add another passage which I believe supports the concept I've been presenting.

"Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if My kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence" (John 18:36).
 
I believe that Jesus is already king not over an "inner spiritual domain" (only) but also a king over this present world. And I think the Scripture supports this.

You refer to Luke 17 and translations that suggest the kingdom is "inside" the believer. Here is my counterargument:

Some assert that a brief of teaching in Luke 17, particularly verse 21, locate the kingdom of God as “inside” the believer, with the implication that the broader world does not fall under its jurisdiction. Here are several translations of verse 21:

NET: nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is in your midst.”

NIV: nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is within you."

NASB: nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’ For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst."

NLT: You won’t be able to say, ‘Here it is!’ or ‘It’s over there!’ For the Kingdom of God is among you."

MSG:Nor when someone says, 'Look here!' or, 'There it is!' And why? Because God's kingdom is already among you."

BBE: And men will not say, See, it is here! or, There! for the kingdom of God is among you.

NRSV: nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There it is!’ For, in fact, the kingdom of God is among you."

NKJV: "nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you."

Note how only 2 of these 8 translations render the last bit as “within you”. All the other translations have Jesus telling the listeners that the Kingdom is “in your midst” or “among you” – suggesting, of course, that the kingdom is “present right now”.

And the fatal blow to the “within you” interpretation arises from who Jesus is speaking to:

Now at one point the Pharisees asked Jesus when the kingdom of God was coming, so he answered, “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed

If Jesus is saying that the “location” of the kingdom is specifically “within the human person”, Jesus is telling the Pharisees that the kingdom of God is within them, the Pharisees, in this sense.

Not likely, of course – the Pharisees were precisely the ones in whom the kingdom was not present.
If the Kingdom is already here and Jesus is King in this present world. Does this world testify to His rule? What is the testimony of this present world to his rule?

IOW, if Jesus is King of this world, and one looks around and sees what is going on in this present world, do you think He is doing a good job?

How does this present world testify of His Kingship in this present world?
 
If the Kingdom is already here and Jesus is King in this present world. Does this world testify to His rule? What is the testimony of this present world to his rule?

IOW, if Jesus is King of this world, and one looks around and sees what is going on in this present world, do you think He is doing a good job?

How does this present world testify of His Kingship in this present world?
Some assert that Jesus cannot be King right now because there is suffering and wickedness in the world. This position cannot be sustained Biblically.

The key text is from 1 Corinthians 15:

For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

1. The assertion is that Jesus cannot be reigning now since there is presently suffering and wickedness;

2. Paul says that Jesus must reign until all enemies have been defeated and identifies death as the last enemy to be defeated;

3. This means that, at some points in his reign, there will remain enemies yet to be defeated;

4. Suffering and wickedness are two possible candidates - two of the enemies that, at some point (or points) in the reign, could remain undefeated.

5. There is no necessity for us to believe that, at the present time, these 2 particular enemies will already have been defeated.

6. Therefore the assertion that that Jesus cannot be reigning now since there is presently suffering and wickedness is overturned.
 
I see no significant problem if you choose to believe this, and it's okay if you want to continue to pursue this concept, but since it's not essential doctrine I usually do not continue debating an issue. I will just add another passage which I believe supports the concept I've been presenting.
How is it not central doctrine? The claim that Jesus is indeed King over this present world has massive implications.

"Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if My kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence" (John 18:36).
Pilate then went back inside the palace, summoned Jesus and asked him, "Are you the king of the Jews?" 34"Is that your own idea," Jesus asked, "or did others talk to you about me?" 35"Am I a Jew?" Pilate replied. "It was your people and your chief priests who handed you over to me. What is it you have done?" 36Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."

In verse 36, Jesus seems to be saying "My kingdom has nothing to do with earthly kingdoms, so there is no 'political' dimension to my kingdom".

As it turns out, there is a huge translation issue here. Here is the rendering of verse 36 as per the NET Bible:

Jesus replied, “My kingdom is not from this world. If my kingdom were from this world, my servants would be fighting to keep me from being 1 handed over 2 to the Jewish authorities. 3 But as it is, 4 my kingdom is not from here.

The NET version is, my sources indicate, true to the original Greek. The greek word that is rendered “from” (above in the bolded and underlined cases) has the following definition:

“a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative; direct or remote)

When the word is used properly, we see that the “not of this world” reading is misleading. The intended meaning is that the Kingdom that has been brought to earth is from Heaven - that is, Heaven is the point of origin for the Kingdom that has been initiated.

Jesus is a King. Jesus' kingdom, while not from this world, is rather clearly for this world.
 
Some assert that Jesus cannot be King right now because there is suffering and wickedness in the world. This position cannot be sustained Biblically.

The key text is from 1 Corinthians 15:

For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

1. The assertion is that Jesus cannot be reigning now since there is presently suffering and wickedness;

2. Paul says that Jesus must reign until all enemies have been defeated and identifies death as the last enemy to be defeated;

3. This means that, at some points in his reign, there will remain enemies yet to be defeated;

4. Suffering and wickedness are two possible candidates - two of the enemies that, at some point (or points) in the reign, could remain undefeated.

5. There is no necessity for us to believe that, at the present time, these 2 particular enemies will already have been defeated.

6. Therefore the assertion that that Jesus cannot be reigning now since there is presently suffering and wickedness is overturned.
I have been over all this before.

Do you see more and more enemies defeated from the time of Christ? After 2000 years of Jesus' Kingship in this present world, do you see more or less of His enemies in this present world?
 
Some assert that Jesus cannot be King right now because there is suffering and wickedness in the world. This position cannot be sustained Biblically.

The key text is from 1 Corinthians 15:

For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
Jesus reins in this world, not over this world, e.g. He reins overs those who are His, and over sin and death in this world, etc. This does not give credibility to the concept that His kingdom is in this world, but that He reigns wherever He is-- in this world or the next.

"Thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven" will begin during the Millennium on this old Earth (which cannot occur without His presence) and continue in the new Earth thereafter.

Also just wanted you to know that what I meant by essential doctrine is teachings that are related to receiving salvation. I like that you're keeping your persistence applicable, and I would suggest (for all) the use of some Bible commentaries, which I find most useful.
 
I have been over all this before.

Do you see more and more enemies defeated from the time of Christ? After 2000 years of Jesus' Kingship in this present world, do you see more or less of His enemies in this present world?
I see less, and I suspect that it only appears otherwise precisely because improved technology enables mass media ves and the people's appetite for ghoulish news gives the impression that things are getting worse.

But it doesn't really matter - the 1 Corinthians 15 material proves that Jesus can be king even if the world is still wicked and there is still suffering. Do you deny this? If so, please point out the flaw in the argument I posted.

I see no evidence at all in the Scriptures for this notion that if Jesus were reigning now, everything would be perfect. Paul writes what he writes - he will reign until all enemies have been defeated. Therefore He can surely be reigning before particular enemies are defeated. And these particular enemies could include death and some degree of evil.
 
Jesus reins in this world, not over this world, e.g. He reins overs those who are His, and over sin and death in this world, etc. This does not give credibility to the concept that His kingdom is in this world, but that He reigns wherever He is-- in this world or the next.
Please tell me where the error is in my argument about John 18. Or in the argument about Luke 17? Unless you can show me an error, that text cannot be used to dispute my assertion that Jesus presently reigns over this present world. The argument I provided from 1 Corinthians was not given to demonstrate that Jesus reigns over this present world, it was given to show that the presence of evil and death does not challenge that claim.

The Biblical case that Jesus presently rules over this world is very strong. Here is yet another argument to add to the two I have already provided:

From Acts 4:
On their release, Peter and John went back to their own people and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said to them. 24When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. "Sovereign Lord," they said, "you made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and everything in them. 25You spoke by the Holy Spirit through the mouth of your servant, our father David:
"'Why do the nations rage
and the peoples plot in vain?
26The kings of the earth take their stand
and the rulers gather together
against the Lord
and against his Anointed One


Peter and John pray in response to the actions of the religious leaders. The prayer quotes directly from Psalm 2, verses 1 and 2 - not a co-incidence:

Why do the nations conspire
and the peoples plot in vain? 2 The kings of the earth take their stand
and the rulers gather together
against the LORDand against his Anointed One.


And what does Psalm 2 go on to say a few breaths later in respect to this "annointed one"?:

I have installed my King
on Zion, my holy hill


Assuming that Peter and John know their scriptures, they know that Psalm 2 describes rebellion against a sitting King. And more to the point, the Acts text shows that He is a king over nations – so this is not the “heavenly” kingdom so many imagine, it is a kingdom of this present world.

Do you really believe that the Holy Spirit would inspire the writer of Acts to record this prayer, which exactly echoes the Psalm 2 account of rebellion against a sitting political King, and not expect us to draw the obvious conclusion – Jesus is indeed that very King, already installed, just as Psalm 2 declares?

Even though (obviously) we do not have Jesus with us in person, his Kingship has been established.
 
Some assert that Jesus cannot be King right now because there is suffering and wickedness in the world. This position cannot be sustained Biblically.

The key text is from 1 Corinthians 15:

For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

1. The assertion is that Jesus cannot be reigning now since there is presently suffering and wickedness;

2. Paul says that Jesus must reign until all enemies have been defeated and identifies death as the last enemy to be defeated;

3. This means that, at some points in his reign, there will remain enemies yet to be defeated;

4. Suffering and wickedness are two possible candidates - two of the enemies that, at some point (or points) in the reign, could remain undefeated.

5. There is no necessity for us to believe that, at the present time, these 2 particular enemies will already have been defeated.

6. Therefore the assertion that that Jesus cannot be reigning now since there is presently suffering and wickedness is overturned.
1 Cor 15:24~~then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.

Vs 24 puts vs 25 into context that the "rulers,authorities and Power" still have not been abolished and won't until the end. So satan and his rule reign on the earth until the very end.

LWB 1 Cor. 15:25 For he [satan] must continue to rule it [the earth] until He [the Father] has relegated all His [the Spirit’s] enemies under His [Christ’s] feet.

Heb 1:13~~But to which of the angels has He ever said, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET "?
 
1 Cor 15:24~~then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.

Vs 24 puts vs 25 into context that the "rulers,authorities and Power" still have not been abolished and won't until the end. So satan and his rule reign on the earth until the very end.
I see no Biblical evidence whatsoever that Satan is in any sense "king" or "ruler" over the world. Quite the contrary, I have already provided Biblical arguments, that you appear to have not addressed, that it is Jesus who is presently enthroned over this world - remember what Jesus says in Luke 10:

And He said to them, “I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning.

How can Satan be in charge in light of this statement? And we also have Paul telling us that, at the cross, Jesus defeated the principalities and powers. I grant you that the text you cite here could be read as suggesting that Jesus is still not king. However, given all the other texts that clearly establish Jesus as a present reigning king, I think the best interpretation of 1 Cor 15:24 is that while Jesus is indeed King, there are still pockets of authority that remain rebellious.

I believe this is a situation where the broad corpus of scripture really is clear that Jesus is a presently ruling king over this world, even though isolated texts might be a little ambiguous on this. Consider this analogy: Barak Obama is the current President, right? Do all Americans recognize this? No, there are some isolated fringe groups (e.g. militias, etc.) that do not recognize his authority as President. Does this mean he is not, in fact, President? Of course not.

I plan to post more Biblical arguments to the effect that Jesus is a presently ruling king over this world.

The fact that Satan is still around does not make him king.
 
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